DNR/DNI/AND Thoughts?

[alexit]

I've worried about methods that would not succeed but would leave me with brain damage. But do you think the worry would be lessened if you had Do Not Resuscitate, Do Not Intubate and/or Allow Natural Death forms? The problem where I live is that the form has to be signed by a doctor to be immediately undisputed. Some places just require being notarised. But while they might take you to hospital eventually someone taking over your case or proxy would have to recognise those were your wishes. Thoughts?

 

[Mm80]

Initially a paramedic or first responder would ignore this and try to keep you alive. Not sure about once your at hospital but would a doctor sign a a dnr assuming your relatively healthy ?

 

[alexit]

Initially a paramedic or first responder would ignore this and try to keep you alive. Not sure about once your at hospital but would a doctor sign a a dnr assuming your relatively healthy ?

It would be an odd conversation but given the backdrop of COVID it's one a lot of people are having. I've been reading up on it as best I can. I would advise against mentioning it's for suicide as it's not condition-specific. That's as far as I can tell: different ways and forms depending on where you are, but they are not ONLY DO THIS if THAT happens. And mostly your written wishes are recognized as long as you have them near you.

 

[DyingAlf]

I tried to set up a dnr/dnar but my GP said that I don't have "capacity" to make that decision because I'm mentally ill/suicidal, despite having a clear & logical discussion about it. So I pulled out my last psychiatrist letter which stated that I do have capacity but my GP said that the capacity the psychiatrist was referring to was a different set of circumstances.
My GP did, however, help me fill out a different form (I can't remember what it's called) that stated my wishes for if I was to become brain damaged/vegetative state or something like that.

 

[alexit]

I tried to set up a dnr/dnar but my GP said that I don't have "capacity" to make that decision because I'm mentally ill/suicidal, despite having a clear & logical discussion about it. So I pulled out my last psychiatrist letter which stated that I do have capacity but my GP said that the capacity the psychiatrist was referring to was a different set of circumstances.
My GP did, however, help me fill out a different form (I can't remember what it's called) that stated my wishes for if I was to become brain damaged/vegetative state or something like that.

You bring up a good point. It would matter when you have the form signed. And a living will/advanced directive is probably a better form as in that you can specify you do not want treatment -- something the other forms don't cover. And your family should know of your wishes. I know my father straight told me there should be no attempt to keep him alive if he's in a vegetative state, and I'll be damned if anyone tries to overrule that.

 

[Mm80]

It would be an odd conversation but given the backdrop of COVID it's one a lot of people are having. I've been reading up on it as best I can. I would advise against mentioning it's for suicide as it's not condition-specific. That's as far as I can tell: different ways and forms depending on where you are, but they are not ONLY DO THIS if THAT happens. And mostly your written wishes are recognized as long as you have them near you.

Oh i see. It seems like a tricky one but hopefully you will get sorted

 

[BPD Barbie]

I don't know what its like in other places but DNARs are tricky things in the UK. They have to be signed by a doctor and the DNAR has to be on scene and accessible for the paramedics to honour it. They also are condition specific as someone said above, so for example if you have cancer and you're choking but your DNAR says you have to be dying from cancer then they will revive you.

 

[Mm80]

I don't know what its like in other places but DNARs are tricky things in the UK. They have to be signed by a doctor and the DNAR has to be on scene and accessible for the paramedics to honour it. They also are condition specific as someone said above, so for example if you have cancer and you're choking but your DNAR says you have to be dying from cancer then they will revive you.

The op said its not condition specific ? Im in the UK too and think it would be difficult, particularly with paramedics, i dont think they or a and e would take notice of them as medical people tend to be pro life imo.

 

[alexit]

The op said its not condition specific ? Im in the UK too and think it would be difficult, particularly with paramedics, i dont think they or a and e would take notice of them as medical people tend to be pro life imo.

I guess what I should have said is that they can be written to apply all conditions, but yeah some template forms have designations for different conditions.

 

[BPD Barbie]

The op said its not condition specific ? Im in the UK too and think it would be difficult, particularly with paramedics, i dont think they or a and e would take notice of them as medical people tend to be pro life imo.

I'm a UK paramedic. If its on scene and signed by a doctor it's legal and the paramedics attending can actually get sued if they go against it. Providing it meets the conditions of course. I've never heard of someone just getting a DNAR without some medical condition, and as stated somewhere else, capacity comes into it as well.

 

[alexit]

I don't know what its like in other places but DNARs are tricky things in the UK. They have to be signed by a doctor and the DNAR has to be on scene and accessible for the paramedics to honour it. They also are condition specific as someone said above, so for example if you have cancer and you're choking but your DNAR says you have to be dying from cancer then they will revive you.

In some states in the US a living will is more all encompassing and easier to create BUT some states still require physical witnesses (not notaries though varies by state), but regardless where the HELL do you find two people during COVID?

I'm a UK paramedic. If its on scene and signed by a doctor it's legal and the paramedics attending can actually get sued if they go against it. Providing it meets the conditions of course. I've never heard of someone just getting a DNAR without some medical condition, and as stated somewhere else, capacity comes into it as well.

Do they have living wills or advance medical directives in the UK?

 

[BPD Barbie]

In some states in the US a living will is more all encompassing and easier to create BUT some states still require physical witnesses (not notaries though varies by state), but regardless where the HELL do you find two people during COVID?

That's gonna be tricky. Unless anyone is willing to take a risk, shame its physical otherwise could just mail it.

 

[DyingAlf]

The paramedics (some of them? Maybe not all?) in the UK carry around screens (look like iPads) so if they knew who you are in advance (if someone found your ID on you or you were found by someone who knows you) maybe they'd have access to your records & know if there's a DNR/DNAR on there???

They also are condition specific

In the UK a DNAR can be condition specific but they don't have to be. I did a lot of research including about that & the one I was going to do was not going to be condition specific.

Do they have living wills or advance medical directives in the UK?

Yes (They might have different names but they cover more or less the same things)

 

[Mm80]

I'm a UK paramedic. If its on scene and signed by a doctor it's legal and the paramedics attending can actually get sued if they go against it. Providing it meets the conditions of course. I've never heard of someone just getting a DNAR without some medical condition, and as stated somewhere else, capacity comes into it as well.

Thanks for the insight. I wonder if depression could be conceived as a medical condition? I suppose the capacity issue would then come into play.

 

[BPD Barbie]

Thanks for the insight. I wonder if depression could be conceived as a medical condition? I suppose the capacity issue would then come into play.

The whole "does someone have capacity" stuff just annoys me. It should be pure choice if someone wants to be revived or not. Really it should be your body, your life, your choice.

 

[Mm80]

The paramedics (some of them? Maybe not all?) in the UK carry around screens (look like iPads) so if they knew who you are in advance (if someone found your ID on you or you were found by someone who knows you) maybe they'd have access to your records & know if there's a DNR/DNAR on there???



In the UK a DNAR can be condition specific but they don't have to be. I did a lot of research including about that & the one I was going to do was not going to be condition specific.

Yes (They might have different names but they cover more or less the same things)

Intersting stuff. Bpd barbie is a paramedic and may be able to confirm how the i pad thing works, ie if its done electronically or a hard copy is needed. Im surprised you can get them without stating a specific illness, how does that work ?

 

[BPD Barbie]

Intersting stuff. Bpd barbie is a paramedic and may be able to confirm how the i pad thing works, ie if its done electronically or a hard copy is needed. Im surprised you can get them without stating a specific illness, how does that work ?

Sometimes its on the system but its linked to addresses. So when you put in an address warnings come up which show things like TEP forms, DNAR, warnings for violence etc. So sometimes paramedics are aware but not always. So if you CTB with a DNAR in the woods for example and didn't take it with you, they would be none the wiser.

 

[Mm80]

Sometimes its on the system but its linked to addresses. So when you put in an address warnings come up which show things like TEP forms, DNAR, warnings for violence etc. So sometimes paramedics are aware but not always. So if you CTB with a DNAR in the woods for example and didn't take it with you, they would be none the wiser.

Thanks. I bet youre a pretty different type of paramedic to most lol being pro choice.

 

[Blackpoolbootz]

The whole "does someone have capacity" stuff just annoys me. It should be pure choice if someone wants to be revived or not. Really it should be your body, your life, your choice.

From what I understand working with learning disabilities Doctors can't just decide that someone doesn't have capacity as far an I'm unaware under the mental health act specific procedure needs to be followed. Everyone is assumed to have mental capacity until it is proven they haven't then an advocate or power of attorney is involved. Good page on mind website. As said a DNR is done on a specific sheet of paper and has to be a record with your GP. But I could be wrong with the whole thing about assisted suicide and people imposing their religious views on people making decisions for themself.

 

[Mm80]

From what I understand working with learning disabilities Doctors can't just decide that someone doesn't have capacity as far an I'm unaware under the mental health act specific procedure needs to be followed. Everyone is assumed to have mental capacity until it is proven they haven't then an advocate or power of attorney is involved. Good page on mind website. As said a DNR is done on a specific sheet of paper and has to be a record with your GP. But I could be wrong with the whole thing about assisted suicide and people imposing their religious views on people making decisions for themself.

Good to know im not the only depressed person around blackpool lol. Im on the fylde coast.

 

[Blackpoolbootz]

Good to know im not the only depressed person around blackpool lol. Im on the fylde coast.

That's local the depression hot spot of the UK should have a range of meds over the counter around here lol

 

[Mm80]

That's local the depression hot spot of the UK should have a range of meds over the counter around here lol

Yeah lol i think the difference between living in blackpool and visiting for fish and chips are two very different experiences lol.

 

[Blackpoolbootz]

Yes and you find out where the better fish and chip shops are. If I had a penny for everytime someone said why did you move here lol