Method [Discussion] VSED with more steps?

[TAW122]

Disclaimer: I am not a doctor, medical expert, nor a lawyer or legal expert, and this is just something that I've pondered about, especially seeing that there are people who go via this way. Additionally, this is by no means an effective nor painless method, but my idea is that there is probably a way to still have some agency and control over one's death, even if passively.

With that in mind, my idea is that in a situation if one does not have access to certain methods due to financial, living arrangements, personal circumstances, or even capability (like being physically impaired or unable to execute said method(s) for any reason or cause), then perhaps this is one "possible" way to still be able to die, yet still defying the pro-lifers (pro-sufferer's iron grip). First off, VSED (Voluntary Stop Eating and Drinking) is where the person stops eating and drinking, meaning that they stop consuming any food or anything of nourishment to keep them alive. The same goes with any fluid or liquid intake, whether it is orally or intravenously. Normally, this would be done with medical supervision and in a controlled environment while being sedated or on medications to keep a person comfortable during the dying process (which can take weeks or even months).

Now my idea of VSED but with more steps means that even in the worst scenario of losing any sort of control over one's own bodily autonomy, perhaps there is a way to prevent medical experts from keeping someone alive with nourishment, like if one is normally able to take food orally, then ensuring that the oral route cannot be used and also the intravenous route cannot be used, therefore, one would be considered terminal as there is no route of nourishment to sustain life. Again, I'm not a doctor nor medical expert so if anyone has medical knowledge about the human anatomy and stuff, feel free to chime in.

As far as the legal process is concerned, I do not have all the answers and knowledge (beyond the basic understanding) of advance directives, living wills, and medical wishes. I do however know that if one has such a legal document drafted, then they have some semblance of legal standing depending on the situation. Again, I believe it will vary between scenario to scenario as each situation will be different. I do know in certain situations, if advance directives and a person's wishes (written and established well in advance) are not honored, then one or one's own family (or those who are in charge of enforcing said directive or wishes) are able to pursue legal recourse of some sort.

Finally, I will conclude that this isn't a first resort or even a reliable, let alone comfortable method, but it is just an idea based on my basic understanding of how living things sustain themselves and using that to one's advantage in order to successfully CTB. This is also something that is not easy to pull off and this is also notwithstanding a person's own SI (survival instinct). I wrote this thread in hopes to theorize and explore whether this is a possible method if one is unable to find other easier ways to CTB.
@RainAndSadness @Anon1337 @Forever Sleep @FuneralCry @locked*n*loaded

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Is this a method that you're considering? I think you're right that "this is by no means an effective nor painless method". As far as your legal theory of using advance directives, I am no lawyer, either. It seems to me whether using that kind of tool to facilitate this method would certainly depend on your location in this world, at least to some degree. Even in the US, legal "contracts" are broken all the time - one never knows how a judge is going to rule. There was a case some years ago regarding a child who was basically "brain dead". I don't remember where it was happening, but I think it was here in the US. Also, I don't remember the exact particulars of the case, but one side or the other, one side being a parent, maybe parents, and the other side the hospital, and maybe an advocate assigned to the child, battled it out in court because one side (or the other) wanted life sustaining measures stopped, and the other side didn't. I don't remember how it all turned out, but obviously only one side won. My only point in stating this is that it's a crap shoot how a judge will rule.

Additionally, someone would have to get to the stage of where medical intervention is warranted - no easy task, as you said. I know how I feel when I get hungry. I've known other people (long time ago) who could be described as "hangry" when they became hungry. I guess it would depend on the individual and their circumstances whether this method would be viable to them.

I did a little research on VSED and fairly quickly dismissed it for me. Have there been any successful CTB with this method amongst SaSu members? It would be hard, I think. Some of the symptoms could be managed with drugs, like for the headaches and such. One would have to get through the survival mode that the body goes into when it realizes it isn't getting what it needs. No doubt there will be quite a bit of pain, and as you said, this method is not quick by any means.

I could see a "pro-life" judge quashing one's advance directive and other written wishes. I know wills get broken all the time by judges. Hopefully, others will chime in, too. It's really sad that a method like this even would have to be considered.

 

[TAW122]

Is this a method that you're considering? I think you're right that "this is by no means an effective nor painless method". As far as your legal theory of using advance directives, I am no lawyer, either. It seems to me whether using that kind of tool to facilitate this method would certainly depend on your location in this world, at least to some degree. Even in the US, legal "contracts" are broken all the time - one never knows how a judge is going to rule. There was a case some years ago regarding a child who was basically "brain dead". I don't remember where it was happening, but I think it was here in the US. Also, I don't remember the exact particulars of the case, but one side or the other, one side being a parent, maybe parents, and the other side the hospital, and maybe an advocate assigned to the child, battled it out in court because one side (or the other) wanted life sustaining measures stopped, and the other side didn't. I don't remember how it all turned out, but obviously only one side won. My only point in stating this is that it's a crap shoot how a judge will rule.

Additionally, someone would have to get to the stage of where medical intervention is warranted - no easy task, as you said. I know how I feel when I get hungry. I've known other people (long time ago) who could be described as "hangry" when they became hungry. I guess it would depend on the individual and their circumstances whether this method would be viable to them.

I did a little research on VSED and fairly quickly dismissed it for me. Have there been any successful CTB with this method amongst SaSu members? It would be hard, I think. Some of the symptoms could be managed with drugs, like for the headaches and such. One would have to get through the survival mode that the body goes into when it realizes it isn't getting what it needs. No doubt there will be quite a bit of pain, and as you said, this method is not quick by any means.

I could see a "pro-life" judge quashing one's advance directive and other written wishes. I know wills get broken all the time by judges. Hopefully, others will chime in, too. It's really sad that a method like this even would have to be considered.

No, this wouldn't be my method unless I literally have no other option left and lack the physical ability to carry out CTB, which of course, will mean I have bigger problems... While it is true that contracts are broken all the time in the US and I've taken into consideration that medical professionals and the courts will often force the patient to live, hence the "extra steps" for VSED would be to make it where, regardless of efforts to force feed or keep a human alive will not work. I'm going with the assumption that besides oral and intravenous routes, I can't think of many other routes of administration that will give nourishment to someone who is trying to VSED successfully, therefore the idea is that if one is able to effectively block/render those routes inaccessible or just unable to be used, then even if medical professionals are trying to force feed said patient, they wouldn't (medically) be able to and thus the patient would be terminal and end up dying. However, in practice it would likely be almost impossible to pull off because unless literally every viable vein in a human is unable to be accessed (very unlikely), they will likely find a vein to do so, and also I'm sure they'll probably find a way if they couldn't get stuff down by mouth.

I do agree that it is sad that such an idea and desperate method is considered, but again, if one is unable to CTB and literally just at the mercy of others, then this is probably the only physical option, including the assumption that one is able to shut off said routes of administration to defeat any attempts to sustain life.

 

[Orbitc]

It is actually easy to completely rejection food - the main thing is to endure hunger for 3 to 5 days and after ketosis will begin and the appetite will disappear. Once I didn't eat for more than two weeks because of stomach problems and it was very easy. But the complete rejection of water will be painful because the thirst will grow exponentially. It is sad that some people are so limited and will be forced to choose this painful method out of desperation. I am now very pleased with the idea that I have a good choice between the exit bag, partial hanging and SN methods.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

No, this wouldn't be my method unless I literally have no other option left and lack the physical ability to carry out CTB, which of course, will mean I have bigger problems... While it is true that contracts are broken all the time in the US and I've taken into consideration that medical professionals and the courts will often force the patient to live, hence the "extra steps" for VSED would be to make it where, regardless of efforts to force feed or keep a human alive will not work. I'm going with the assumption that besides oral and intravenous routes, I can't think of many other routes of administration that will give nourishment to someone who is trying to VSED successfully, therefore the idea is that if one is able to effectively block/render those routes inaccessible or just unable to be used, then even if medical professionals are trying to force feed said patient, they wouldn't (medically) be able to and thus the patient would be terminal and end up dying. However, in practice it would likely be almost impossible to pull off because unless literally every viable vein in a human is unable to be accessed (very unlikely), they will likely find a vein to do so, and also I'm sure they'll probably find a way if they couldn't get stuff down by mouth.

I do agree that it is sad that such an idea and desperate method is considered, but again, if one is unable to CTB and literally just at the mercy of others, then this is probably the only physical option, including the assumption that one is able to shut off said routes of administration to defeat any attempts to sustain life.

How does one block intravenous routes? Other than through advance directive, which can be nullified, or court order? Are you talking about vein collapse caused by excessive malnutrition and, thus, no access for artificial feeding mechanisms? A feeding tube can also be implanted through surgical measures.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I imagine it depends on what your living situation is- is there anyone there to notice you had stopped eating and drinking? Are they willing to support you in this? If not and you've already begun to starve/ dehydrate- I imagine medical services will be informed. Then, I imagine they will make an assesment on the person. I would guess that with an elderly person with chronic medical conditions- they are more likely to let nature take it's course. Someone seemingly healthy but with a piece of paper basically saying- I wish to die- I imagine they'll want to stabalise before a proper psyche evaluation can be performed. It sounds too good to be true to me to admit yourself into hospital and ask for sedatives while you VSED. Duty of care and all that.

Have you tried refusing treatment before in a hospital setting? I've been on both sides of the fence- as it were. I didn't really want that injection you get in your tummy- because you're not moving around so much- I think it's to prevent bloodclots. I accepted it after they explained what it was but they were insistant from the start I had to have it.

I've also worked in care settings where the poor people there have dementia and are incontinent. Even if you explain to them you're trying to help- some will literally fight you but- you have to still try to do it. You can't leave them soiled to get sores and infections. When it comes to whether the patient is going to come to more harm- I expect the law would favour the healthcare professional. You must have seen what happens to people who refuse medication etc in psyche wards- they get held down while it's administered. If you're not eating or drinking- how long will you have the strength to resist? If you become VERY violent- the hospital may wish to transfer you to a secure unit. Why should nurses/ doctors risk being assaulted?

Nah- I reckon VSED is very difficult on it's own but to try and do it- at least as a relatively healthy person in a healthcare setting- I just can't see it working.

 

[TAW122]

It is actually easy to completely rejection food - the main thing is to endure hunger for 3 to 5 days and after ketosis will begin and the appetite will disappear. Once I didn't eat for more than two weeks because of stomach problems and it was very easy. But the complete rejection of water will be painful because the thirst will grow exponentially. It is sad that some people are so limited and will be forced to choose this painful method out of desperation. I am now very pleased with the idea that I have a good choice between the exit bag, partial hanging and SN methods.

This would be easy if one is secluded or isn't likely to have intervention or people checking up on them for an extended period of time, usually for many days or weeks at a time.

How does one block intravenous routes? Other than through advance directive, which can be nullified, or court order? Are you talking about vein collapse caused by excessive malnutrition and, thus, no access for artificial feeding mechanisms? A feeding tube can also be implanted through surgical measures.

Ah, I suppose that could be a possibility too, surgical implantation of a tube, and will likely be very uncomfortable. I suppose (in theory) one would need to have be in really bad shape (worse than death) in order for one to be unable to be kept artificially alive.

I imagine it depends on what your living situation is- is there anyone there to notice you had stopped eating and drinking? Are they willing to support you in this? If not and you've already begun to starve/ dehydrate- I imagine medical services will be informed. Then, I imagine they will make an assesment on the person. I would guess that with an elderly person with chronic medical conditions- they are more likely to let nature take it's course. Someone seemingly healthy but with a piece of paper basically saying- I wish to die- I imagine they'll want to stabalise before a proper psyche evaluation can be performed. It sounds too good to be true to me to admit yourself into hospital and ask for sedatives while you VSED. Duty of care and all that.

Have you tried refusing treatment before in a hospital setting? I've been on both sides of the fence- as it were. I didn't really want that injection you get in your tummy- because you're not moving around so much- I think it's to prevent bloodclots. I accepted it after they explained what it was but they were insistant from the start I had to have it.

I've also worked in care settings where the poor people there have dementia and are incontinent. Even if you explain to them you're trying to help- some will literally fight you but- you have to still try to do it. You can't leave them soiled to get sores and infections. When it comes to whether the patient is going to come to more harm- I expect the law would favour the healthcare professional. You must have seen what happens to people who refuse medication etc in psyche wards- they get held down while it's administered. If you're not eating or drinking- how long will you have the strength to resist? If you become VERY violent- the hospital may wish to transfer you to a secure unit. Why should nurses/ doctors risk being assaulted?

Nah- I reckon VSED is very difficult on it's own but to try and do it- at least as a relatively healthy person in a healthcare setting- I just can't see it working.

Thanks for your insight on this, and yes, as a physically (relatively) healthy person, it is very difficult and perhaps almost impossible to get VSED approved. I would hope that if I ever find myself in a situation where my quality of life is so bad, either through an horrendous accident, debilitating illness, severe disability (which affects even day to day life), that people around me would have enough common sense to let me go rather than to keep me alive for their egos. I don't consider myself to be a very important person and as far as society sees me (without knowing me at all), I appear to just be a wage slave and not a wage slave that makes great wages, at least not enough to be able to be financially independent. My parents often see me as unable to be independent (albeit prior to the pandemic their hopes were higher but of course the pandemic altered their standards and attitudes especially with the way things are going in our current world (inflation, economic, housing prices, wage stagnation, and more).

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I suppose (in theory) one would need to have be in really bad shape (worse than death) in order for one to be unable to be kept artificially alive.

"Brain dead" may keep one from be artificially kept alive. Of course, no one can predict what a court will, or won't, do.

 

[Orbitc]

This would be easy if one is secluded or isn't likely to have intervention or people checking up on them for an extended period of time, usually for many days or weeks at a time.

This method may take several months - I was starving for two weeks and it was very easy, I felt even better than ever. After this course, I felt like I was 15 years younger and looked like a 15 year old girl again. It was 2 weeks of absolute no food! Therefore, in order to bring yourself to exhaustion, it will take a very long time, especially for overweight people. I weighed just over 60kg and after 2 weeks of fasting, I weighed around 50kg. But I drank a lot of mineral water and it did not have any negative effects. When I was starving, I was in a public place and fragrant buns were baked in the next room and people ate something around all the time, but when I got into ketosis, these smells were not so attractive and my depressed state completely deprived me of my appetite. The main thing is to achieve ketosis, then you will not feel hungry. Now I make good money, but as a child I lived in a poor family and was very thin. I had complexes because of this)) because of ketosis, I had no appetite all the time and with great difficulty I forced myself to eat some kind of shit like porridge so as not to faint. The temptation to be afraid is not particularly worth it, but as mentioned above, people around you can forcibly force you to eat. How tragic it is in real life - to forcibly take away even such a crappy option from a person who no longer has any options available and he is so driven to despair.

 

[HD72]

It is actually easy to completely rejection food - the main thing is to endure hunger for 3 to 5 days and after ketosis will begin and the appetite will disappear. Once I didn't eat for more than two weeks because of stomach problems and it was very easy. But the complete rejection of water will be painful because the thirst will grow exponentially. It is sad that some people are so limited and will be forced to choose this painful method out of desperation. I am now very pleased with the idea that I have a good choice between the exit bag, partial hanging and SN methods.

What is a partial hanging. I'm sorry I'm new here and don't know all these terms.

 

[アホペンギン]

What is a partial hanging. I'm sorry I'm new here and don't know all these terms.

full suspension hanging is when you aren't touching the ground at all, restricting your airways while partial hanging is when you are touching the ground a little bit, only restricting the flow of the carotid arteries.

 

[HD72]

full suspension hanging is when you aren't touching the ground at all, restricting your airways while partial hanging is when you are touching the ground a little bit, only restricting the flow of the carotid arteries.

Thank you. I'm a little slow learning all of this.