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PDAnnie2610

Waiting for my bus.
Oct 27, 2019
698
Struggling against SI and the knowledge that I've yet to settle my finances is preventing me from using the SN, despite the pain and loneliness in staying on. Torn between my love (him) vs the hurt of being where I am... and feeling alone and shut out by my own biological family.

I wish I never existed, I just don't know how to articulate how I feel. I just keep wishing that I can find a way to survive and not hurt him. Yet, it feels much easier to leave everyone behind and leave. No more being shut out, being alone and cast out by my own biological family.
 
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Deleted member 17949

Deleted member 17949

Visionary
May 9, 2020
2,238
It's valid to live in large part because of how someone else makes you feel. Whether or not you want to go is your choice and there's no rush.
 
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Brick In The Wall

Brick In The Wall

2M Or Not 2B.
Oct 30, 2019
25,158
Struggling against SI and the knowledge that I've yet to settle my finances is preventing me from using the SN, despite the pain and loneliness in staying on. Torn between my love (him) vs the hurt of being where I am... and feeling alone and shut out by my own biological family.

I wish I never existed, I just don't know how to articulate how I feel. I just keep wishing that I can find a way to survive and not hurt him. Yet, it feels much easier to leave everyone behind and leave. No more being shut out, being alone and cast out by my own biological family.
You're preaching to the choir. We definitely know how you feel here. On every level that you've discussed. We're (myself included) here if you ever need to vent or talk.
 
OrangeJuiceCabal

OrangeJuiceCabal

Member
Jun 1, 2020
14
I'm interested in your choice of title, does it really liberate? To me at least suicide seems like a rejection of freedom and even a denial of liberation, what about losing giving up everything and succumbing seems liberating?
 
Brick In The Wall

Brick In The Wall

2M Or Not 2B.
Oct 30, 2019
25,158
I'm interested in your choice of title, does it really liberate? To me at least suicide seems like a rejection of freedom and even a denial of liberation, what about losing giving up everything and succumbing seems liberating?
Speaking for myself here. We all succumb to death eventually. Sometimes it's more "liberating" to take the reigns of our own destiny. To "reject" such a freedom would be more akin to being forced to live our lives to the societal norm.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
One of the worst things a social animal can experience is to be cast out from their primary groups of social support. Many cults maintain their power by the threat of casting out those who choose to not conform, even worse if their families are part of the cult: Jehovah's Witness, Amish, Scientology, FLDS, etc.

This post is another perspective. Not hopeful, but how I've survived and managed. It is not a cult story, but about being cast off from two families. It may not resonate with you. I accept that your experience is your own, different from mine. Before I talk about my story and experience, I acknowledge and honor yours. Thank you for sharing, and I hope you receive something of value for having done so, even if it doesn't come from me. I send you my empathy and a hug, or whatever would bring you comfort if you don't like hugs.



I am adopted. I found my biological mother in adulthood, had a relationship with her, my half-siblings, and extended family for 15 years.

Both mothers were controlling and negating of me, one aggressively, the other passive-aggressively. Both had the position of power in their families and a system of enablers. When I stood up for myself to each of them and didn't back down from my boundaries and autonomy, they each led both families to cast me out. With the adoptive family, separations happened many times over the years. The final breaks in both families happend about six years ago, each with later aftershocks that reaffirmed the breaks, one of my choosing, the other not, but in retrospect I'm grateful.

I know and define myself. Neither mother accepted that. Both made sure no one else accepted it either. Both made me out to be the villain for rejecting their abuse and attempts to control. It was hard to go through, but I did not know how to be anyone else as they wanted me to. I couldn't conform to who they wanted me to be, and rejected their control. In retrospect, I'm glad I couldn't and that I took the hard stands.

Life is fucking hard. Standing alone, cast off from support, can be hard. But it was never really support, it was a promise of support if I gave up me. Then the illusion of me could be cocooned in their illusions. I've learned for myself that life is more comfortable with illusions, floating along in them, but there is no centeredness, so when the shit of life hits, all that's available are the illusions of lifeboats, rather than the connection to self that can (maybe) roll through it all and still be there, hurt but there. If I'm in the illusions, I'm not there. I'm under the control and power of something else. I cannot control all that happens in life, but if I have my self, that is my center of control in the midst of all the rest. Sometimes it is not enough, as there are things can overwhelm, but it is the only thing I can cling to with even the smallest amount of certainty. When faced with the worst that I cannot survive even as my self, that would destroy my self, I can maintain my self and instead release life. At some point, I likely will. It is the most rational. I've already tried, the methods failed. There are other methods, I'm just not at the point that I am pushed to experience a more difficult death than I prefer, but I anticipate that I will.

Even for those for whom life isn't hard, it can be at any moment. Certainty is an illusion. One war, one change in government, one epidemic, one loss of a loved one, the loss of income, the loss of health, and life is fucking hard. No one is immune to the possbilities, only fortunate if they are passed by. The vast majority of humans who have ever lived, past or present, are not passed by, it only seems that way for those who live in parts of the Western world that have been for some time unscathed by war and other long-term catastrophes such as poverty and disease on their shores, and who have never had to deal with the harsh realities of the ghettos so close by and yet unknown to them. They are cocooned, and they are not prepared to handle the shit of life when it hits. Even those who live long and comfortable lives will have to face the suffering of the deaths of their aging bodies, and hope for an easy death, and if they're truly lucky, a drawn-out and painful death will pass them by. If it does not, they, too long for the release and freedom of death. The lucky ones are not the norm.

Those who have been cast out have a power that others don't have. If they survive it, they can weather some really hard storms. If the storms don't come, they have a groundedness, awareness, and presence that those who are cushioned and illusioned don't have. It's not as easy, but I personally prefer life without the cushions and illusions. I prefer facing reality with reality. I've had illusions, and I strove for reality. Reality sucks, But the illusions exacted too high a price for me, like when I tried to have faith in a Judeo-Christian god that never showed up; I was afraid of hell if I chose to embrace what I knew to be true: that there was no such god to embrace, that no such god was embracing me. I have been less cushioned, but I have been less burdened. I got free. Illusions cushion, but they are heavy, and demanding.

My families were demanding. I am less burdened. Reality sucks, and within it I am not fully free, but I'm more free than I was when I had the illusions of family.

I'm sorry you were cast out. I'm sorry you are likely a scapegoat. But scapegoats are some of the strongest people around. If you need and seek that strength, I hope you find it. And if it's all too much, I get that, too. Life. is. fucking. hard. No one has to stay in it, and in the end, no one gets to, anyway. There is power in getting to choose to leave when one decides, or at least in knowing that they can. It's those deceptively cushioning illusions that burden us and say we can't.
 
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OrangeJuiceCabal

OrangeJuiceCabal

Member
Jun 1, 2020
14
I hope I don't sound too combative, but I want to try and explore the notion and maybe even dissuade people the best I can

Sometimes it's more "liberating" to take the reigns of our own destiny.
Yes, that's the most common idea here, and I do think it's a strong point. And not to sound like a broken record but I think the best argument against it is "what about other people?". The other argument is that desire to die is a mental illness and therefore cannot be a choice, it is a compulsion (which has to do with the definition of "liberation" itself being "free to chose", which obviously you would not be very free if a mental condition forced you to accept s certain conclusion)

However, for the sake of keeping to the topic, I'll ignore those 2 points and accept that both other people are irrelevant and suicidal thoughts is not a mental disorder. As I said and you responded to, I asked is freedom to chose to limit choice still a "liberation"? You say the above quote, where we disagree to an extent a dictionary can't solve. What I think you're saying is liberation is an action, not a state of being. If so that would mean that anything that happens after a "liberation" event is meaningless, as long as we've been "liberated". I would like to propose the latter, that liberation is an active state. I think this because I see liberation as having liberty, and to ensure we're liberated we "perform" (for lack of a better word) a passive "liberation 'check'" (again for lack of a better word) to ensure we're liberated. If we've become free of something oppressive, known as a liberation, we still passively "check" that we're liberated. Imagine if we got free of some oppressive thing but immediately were oppressed again. We'd probably decide that we were not in fact liberated and we failed. So because of that, liberation can't be a single and isolated event because that would render the term useless. Instead, it's the state of being in liberty. And if we are liberated via suicide to immediately have no liberty (since you're dead and most people here don't expect much to happen after that), then we have really not achieved liberation. Because of that, it is not possible liberation can involve killing oneself and any sort of true liberation would have to come from actions within life, not death.

But I don't think we're done yet, if I may, I want to probe at the second part of your sentence and why this is important:
To "reject" such a freedom would be more akin to being forced to live our lives to the societal norm.
This is the heart of our disagreement, you link life to society (at least, the way you phrased it) and see it as an oppressive norm, whereas I see it as a possibility for a liberation not resulting in death. What is it about life that makes it a societal norm? There are many choices to refuse to conform in life, and there are many different societies one can subscribe to the norms of (including no society at all, although most wouldn't make it very far without a society). The "liberation" people acclaim here is usually impulsive measures (supplemented by prior knowledge about methods) to kill themselves, which I think is hardly freeing yourself from societal norms. In all cultures there is a meta, counter-culture. The main culture is what's called pro-life and the counter-culture is pro-choice, and ironically people seeking to "free" themselves just fall victim to subscribing to whatever is the common and polar opposite of what they hate. I'm not making an attack on the site, but despite all its censorship Sanctioned Suicide has risen as the hub of counter-culture, anti-norm thought. And it's effectively created its own norm in doing so. Are we forced to live our lives to the societal norm? Sort of, no one forces us to live but there is societal pressure to "conform". The ironic danger arises when people go out and say "you are being forced to live. Resist!". They've hardly resisted anything, and instead of rejecting the society they hate for doing them wrong, they dogmatically embrace the others who are in these situations and in their effort to become aware of the concept of force to live, to them it means freedom to die, which is staunchly an anti-freedom for all the reasons I've described.

To summarize, we're extremely temporarily taking the reign of our destiny and locking up the rest of it, which isn't really liberation at all. And we're only partially forced to live to societal norms. We're not really forced to live, we chose to not die (for the most part, because it's a bad choice and regardless of morality is illogical). We are only temporarily forced to accept societal norms until we have the freedom to liberate ourselves (however, that liberation wouldn't involve death ideally). And ironically what is known as a "freedom to die" is in itself the act of one succumbing oneself to the popularized counter-norm of pro-choice.

Quick note, I hope it's obvious but I wish OP the best and aren't attacking anyone here or this site. I'm just pointing out what I disagree with exclusively within the topic of "death = liberation?"

And last note, I think there are plenty of other good reasons to not commit suicide other than the assumption that making free choices = good. This is a rather petty example and in the first paragraph I briefly mention some good points as well. If I've said anything wrong or you disagree with, then tell me, because I love talking
 
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PDAnnie2610

Waiting for my bus.
Oct 27, 2019
698
I'm not really keen on the stay alive rhetoric - I know it all. What fuels the rage is partly the emotional blackmail from her - her constant verbal abuse of my own grandma, when that 'her' is my biological mother.

I've little respect for idiocy and it's kinda grating to have to put up with the above and her constant whinging about the lack of space when it was her and father who made the moronic choice of having 5 kids. Her resentment fuels mine, and trying not to give in to the bpd rage is sometimes similar to a knife being twisted in my guts - it hurts. Staying in this household, and hardly trusting anyone is sapping my will to live. I sometimes wonder if it will indeed please everyone if I'm dead, for I'm very certain that I'll be very pleased to cease existing.

SN beckons to me, and deep within me, I wish I can live and love. It just feels so difficult when people around me keep triggering my shit though.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
I wanted to engage with some of @OrangeJuiceCabal's arguments, but did not want to change the focus of the thread, which is already about @PDAnnie2610. Out of respect for her and her topic, I engage here. Others are welcome to join in the discussion if they wish. The other thread I linked is an appropriate space for the dialogue. @OrangeJuiceCabal can also create a thread of his/her own if she/he does not agree the space where I engaged with his/her arguments is appropriate but would like to continue to engage without derailing. Of course, anyone can continue here, I'm not a mod or the decider of the course of @PDAnnie2610's thread. Such direction and control is only in her power and the mods'.
 
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PDAnnie2610

Waiting for my bus.
Oct 27, 2019
698
Maybe I'll find it in me the courage to liberate the monster in me through death one day. I don't know when though.
 

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