Constraints of Freedom

[DarkRange55]

I feel like the word freedom is a little… idk maybe nebulous? Is it freedom from responsibilities? Because thats a very broad stroke. Bills, job, kids, health, ect. Is it the ability to free yourself from the expectations and opinions of others and society so you are allowing yourself to feel truly comfortable to freely pursue a certain lifestyle or whatever? Is it the ability to go anywhere at anytime and do anything regardless of the financial or social or political barriers? Is it the freedom from being attached to worldly materialism? Is money only ONE of the keys to freedom but not THE key freedom? I don't know, just some stuff to ponder. Just piggybacking on that, is it freedom from relationships = responsibilities? I feel like freedom is a very… multi-contextual? I wonder if "freedom" just means free from responsibility but not consequence?

 

[sserafim]

I feel like the word freedom is a little… idk maybe nebulous? Is it freedom from responsibilities? Because thats a very broad stroke. Bills, job, kids, health, ect. Is it the ability to free yourself from the expectations and opinions of others and society so you are allowing yourself to feel truly comfortable to freely pursue a certain lifestyle or whatever? Is it the ability to go anywhere at anytime and do anything regardless of the financial or social or political barriers? Is it the freedom from being attached to worldly materialism? Is money only ONE of the keys to freedom but not THE key freedom? I don't know, just some stuff to ponder. Just piggybacking on that, is it freedom from relationships = responsibilities? I feel like freedom is a very… multi-contextual? I wonder if "freedom" just means free from responsibility but not consequence?

For me, "freedom" means freedom from responsibilities. It means freedom from a job and having to work for a living (work is modern day slavery). It also means freedom from becoming independent and supporting yourself. It also means freedom from jobs, bills, kids, relationships, society and other people.

 

[DarkRange55]

For me, "freedom" means freedom from a job and having to work for a living. It means freedom from responsibilities, like the responsibility to become independent and support yourself. It also means freedom from jobs, bills, health, kids, relationships and other people.

I feel like this can be interpreted differently. Freedom from health could mean not exercising and eating whatever or it could just mean escape from sickness.

Freedom from relationships - that is a good example because in a relationship you give up freedom for security, comfort, convenience, familiarity, affection, ect. But you loose a degree of freedom.

What does it really mean though? Why is individuality so valued? Why is freedom so valued to you? What would you do with it? I'm asking strictly as a philosophical thought experiment.
Many people exchange freedom or the comfort of routine and repetition.

 

[sserafim]

I feel like this can be interpreted differently. Freedom from health could mean not exercising and eating whatever or it could just mean escape from sickness.

Freedom from relationships - that is a good example because in a relationship you give up freedom for security, comfort, convenience, familiarity, affection, ect. But you loose a degree of freedom.

What does it really mean though? Why is individuality so valued? Why is freedom so valued to you? What would you do with it? I'm asking strictly as a philosophical thought experiment.
Many people exchange freedom or the comfort of routine and repetition.

I didn't mean to include health in my comment. I already edited it out. I don't want any affection. I also don't want to be tied down to other people. Routine and repetition don't give me comfort. I find them confining and limiting. They're also super boring. I get bored easily and I would hate to be chained to anyone. I don't like people anyways. I have no intention of ever being in a relationship because I hate people and I have no need for love or romance

 

[DarkRange55]

I didn't mean to include health in my comment. I already edited it out. I don't want any affection. I also don't want to be tied down to other people. Routine and repetition don't give me comfort. I find them confining and limiting. They're also super boring. I get bored easily and I would hate to be chained to anyone. I don't like people anyways. I have no intention of ever being in a relationship because I hate people and I have no need for love or romance

What do you value above freedom?

 

[sserafim]

What do you value above freedom?

I don't know actually. What do you think?

 

[derpyderpins]

I wonder if "freedom" just means free from responsibility but not consequence?

Freedom is about your right to act without someone else actively hindering you. That is not a textbook definition, but I think it's important to keep in mind.

Freedom of speech/press/religion = I can say/write/practice what I want so long as I'm not actively harming others, and someone else isn't controlling what I say/write/believe through threat/force.

So, freedom from bills: you have that, as long as you don't use services that you'll get billed for. (I would argue property tax violates this freedom but that's another argument.)

Freedom from a job: unless you're a (literal, not figurative) slave, you have this. You don't have to have a job.

imo you can't have a "right" to someone else's labor. . . because that is slavery. If you have a right to shelter, you're saying someone else must build and maintain a shelter for you. If you say you have a right to food, you're saying someone else must provide that food. If you argue you aren't "free" unless you can not have bills or a job but also you must have food and shelter provided to you, you're just saying you want to be the slavemaster. Also, that means no one has ever been free ever.

 

[DarkRange55]

Freedom is about your right to act without someone else actively hindering you. That is not a textbook definition, but I think it's important to keep in mind.

Freedom of speech/press/religion = I can say/write/practice what I want so long as I'm not actively harming others, and someone else isn't controlling what I say/write/believe through threat/force.

So, freedom from bills: you have that, as long as you don't use services that you'll get billed for. (I would argue property tax violates this freedom but that's another argument.)

Freedom from a job: unless you're a (literal, not figurative) slave, you have this. You don't have to have a job.

imo you can't have a "right" to someone else's labor. . . because that is slavery. If you have a right to shelter, you're saying someone else must build and maintain a shelter for you. If you say you have a right to food, you're saying someone else must provide that food. If you argue you aren't "free" unless you can not have bills or a job but also you must have food and shelter provided to you, you're just saying you want to be the slavemaster. Also, that means no one has ever been free ever.

I think the concept is interesting on an individual scale when people say they want a life of freedom or they value freedom over money. My question to the community is - why is freedom valuable to you (not just to ctb)? What do you value more than freedom? What do you want to do with your freedom? Freedom from who? What does freedom on a personal level mean to you in your own life as a value?
Everything has a cost, to some degree, I suppose. Freedom from exercise has a price. Freedom from relationships has a consequence.

 

[derpyderpins]

I don't like people anyways . . . I hate people

Do you hate the people on SS? Do you not like the people here? Being hated feels pretty shitty, so I hope you don't.

 

[sserafim]

Do you hate the people on SS? Do you not like the people here? Being hated feels pretty shitty, so I hope you don't.

I just don't like humanity or people in general

 

[DarkRange55]

I just don't like humanity or people in general

I'm her least favorite recently

 

[derpyderpins]

I think the concept is interesting on an individual scale when people say they want a life of freedom or they value freedom over money. My question to the community is - why is freedom valuable to you (not just to ctb)? What do you value more than freedom? What do you want to do with your freedom? Freedom from who? What does freedom on a personal level mean to you in your own life as a value?
Everything has a cost, to some degree, I suppose. Freedom from exercise has a price. Freedom from relationships has a consequence.

It's an interesting question to ask. And you can't really trust people's answer, right? Like, if I put two roads in front of someone, and one went to a desolate forest in the middle of nowhere with total freedom but the other went to an incredibly beautiful estate with a mansion and a swimming pool and gig internet, but the estate is surrounded by a cage, what would people really pick?

My answer I'd give is that the only thing I value more than freedom is love, but I'm not sure I'd be strong enough to reject comfort given the offer.

 

[sserafim]

It's an interesting question to ask. And you can't really trust people's answer, right? Like, if I put two roads in front of someone, and one went to a desolate forest in the middle of nowhere with total freedom but the other went to an incredibly beautiful estate with a mansion and a swimming pool and gig internet, but the estate is surrounded by a cage, what would people really pick?

My answer I'd give is that the only thing I value more than freedom is love, but I'm not sure I'd be strong enough to reject comfort given the offer.

Why do you value love? I don't care about love at all

 

[derpyderpins]

I just don't like humanity or people in general

So you are capable of liking - or at least being agreeable with - a person, but the collective "people" is what bothers you?

 

[sserafim]

So you are capable of liking - or at least being agreeable with - a person, but the collective "people" is what bothers you?

It's not even hate, just indifference. I feel apathetic and indifferent towards people and humanity. Like I honestly don't care

 

[derpyderpins]

Why do you value love? I don't care about love at all

You've never felt it. And I hate that for you, seriously; I know that sounds weird or insincere because you struggle to connect with people, but even though I've never met you I feel for you. Your parents may "love" you, but they also abused you, which completely fucked up what should have been your example of what love is.

I value love . . . because it makes me feel like I'm whole, and when I feel like I'm whole I realize that before I was whole I was incomplete. Caring for someone else and knowing they care for me gives my world structure and purpose. It's like the world is this vast, empty, pointless matrix of nothing, but putting in people I care about gives me some waypoints, and I start understanding how the map is laid out. I'm not just talking about romance, either.

Honestly, it's not even hate; just indifference. I feel apathetic and indifferent towards people and humanity. Like I honestly don't care

you at least find some of them interesting, though, right? Else you wouldn't post here nearly so much. They offer you more than nothing at all.

 

[sserafim]

You've never felt it. And I hate that for you, seriously; I know that sounds weird or insincere because you struggle to connect with people, but even though I've never met you I feel for you. Your parents may "love" you, but they also abused you, which completely fucked up what should have been your example of what love is.

I value love . . . because it makes me feel like I'm whole, and when I feel like I'm whole I realize that before I was whole I was incomplete. Caring for someone else and knowing they care for me gives my world structure and purpose. It's like the world is this vast, empty, pointless matrix of nothing, but putting in people I care about gives me some waypoints, and I start understanding how the map is laid out. I'm not just talking about romance, either.

you at least find some of them interesting, though, right? Else you wouldn't post here nearly so much. They offer you more than nothing at all.

It's okay. I don't think that I'm missing out on anything anyways. How does caring about someone else give your world structure and purpose? I honestly don't think that I've ever cared about anyone before. I guess some people are interesting though

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Even if I had billions of dollars and zero responsibilities I would still be a slave to myself. No matter how hard I try I would never be able to achieve freedom from my desires, instincts, and impulses. Even killing myself would probably fall under one of these categories. Every action I take and every thought I wield is merely a consequence of my gut micro biome piloting the human shell of my body to satisfy its own nefarious purpose.

 

[DarkRange55]

Even if I had billions of dollars and zero responsibilities I would still be a slave to myself. No matter how hard I try I would never be able to achieve freedom from my desires, instincts, and impulses. Even killing myself would probably fall under one of these categories. Every action I take and every thought I wield is merely a consequence of my gut micro biome piloting the human shell of my body to satisfy its own nefarious purpose.

I think thats another angle. We are all slaves so something, even ourselves, our desires, our vices, our tragedies. Freedom from societal conformity and cultural expectations?

 

[EmptyHeaded]

My answer I'd give is that the only thing I value more than freedom is love

Romantic or platonic love?

You've never felt it. And I hate that for you, seriously;

This seems like a somewhat odd response to me. Not all people care about love, not all people can experience love. It's not necessarily something you need to pity someone for.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think thats another angle. We are all slaves so something, even ourselves, our desires, our vices, our tragedies. Freedom from societal conformity and cultural expectations?

It would be nice to be free from those as well but I honestly don't mind if they end up aligning with what I want and make me feel good. It's sometimes my desire to conform and make people happy just because at least then I'm free from the burden of having to deal with myself.

 

[DarkRange55]

It would be nice to be free from those as well but I honestly don't mind if they end up aligning with what I want and make me feel good. It's sometimes my desire to conform and make people happy just because at least then I'm free from the burden of having to deal with myself.

Freedom is a funny fickle thing…

 

[derpyderpins]

It's okay. I don't think that I'm missing out on anything anyways.

I'd feel less bad if you were convinced you were missing out, because then I know you'd try.

How does caring about someone else give your world structure and purpose?

It's hard to describe, of course, which is why I went so symbolic. I mean, why do you chase dopamine all day? You can say it feels good or go into how the chemical reaction works, but that doesn't really get to it at a philosophical level, right? Our brains are complex.

Please bare with me. I really want this to be a helpful answer, but I'm having to talk it out to myself. I wrote the long one first then the simpler ones:

Easy answer: it's natural instinct and how our biology is wired. We're social creatures and we both perform and feel better when we are part of a community. It's something you have to experience to fully understand.

Spoiler: More detailed answer

Understanding yourself is essential to accepting existence in this world, and you can't understand yourself and know who you are without others as examples. Just looking at them is not enough. As you get to know them you will understand your own humanity, and as you learn that they have good qualities you will understand valuing those types of qualities. They give you structure because people and relationships become the foundation upon which you become an individual. They give you purpose because they give you identity. It's pretty hard to feel purpose if you're just another human like any other, but if you realize that only you can be you, and only you can play the part of you, suddenly it doesn't seem so pointless to do things.

Spoiler: Way too long of an answer

Think of the question "who am I?" I'm a human, of course, so I probably share some traits with humans, but I'm not the same as other humans. But what does that mean? Why do I get up every day? Why do I walk around and do work and eat food? Sure, to live, but why live? Well, on my own, I don't know.

You are at least somewhat interested in Jungian philosophy, right? Think of his theory of the collective unconscious. I - and you - have evolved as other humans have. Other humans have asked these questions, too. And they've experienced things. And this whole of human experience has somewhat built the foundation for who modern people are. Jung believed that people were striving towards "realization" of who they actually are. (This is comparable to Maslow's hierarchy "self-actualization.")

That's where you get into the Jungian Archetypes , basic outlines for how people may develop as individuals. The whole idea of your "realization" is that you have to understand who you are "within [your] environment". To do that, you have to understand your environment, and therefore what role you play in it. Your "environment" isn't the grass and trees around you, it's the people. It's other people. By seeing them, you can understand more about yourself: in what ways are we similar because we are both human, and in what ways are we different because I am my own human? This is the ultimate answer to your question about structure and purpose. I need other people to understand myself, and only then can I actually grow. It's like you as a person are a painting, but the people around you make up the canvas and the base coat. Without them, you're just paint being flung around, but with them you can actually see the picture forming.

Good examples in media to help with this concept would be the second half of End of Evangelion and the Persona series.

I honestly don't think that I've ever cared about anyone before. I guess some people are interesting

Part of you will always be missing until you care about someone other than yourself, strange as that sounds. I'll happily take "some people are interesting" as at least a start.

 

[EmptyHeaded]

Part of you will always be missing until you care about someone other than yourself, strange as that sounds.

I know this isn't directed at me and I'm probably annoying, but I've seen stuff like this thrown around so much that I kind of feel the need to state my worthless opinion on this.
Not everyone works this way. I guess you could say it's a spectrum. Some people need other people more, some less. This also means there are people who genuinely don't care about others. I suppose hermits would be a good example. Some people are the happiest when they're entirely alone. It's the same with e.g. romantic love. Some people crave it, others have no interest in it whatsoever.

 

[derpyderpins]

Romantic or platonic love?

This seems like a somewhat odd response to me. Not all people care about love, not all people can experience love. It's not necessarily something you need to pity someone for.

In both cases, I'm not talking about specifically romantic love. I mean human connection and support in general. If anyone can't experience that I absolutely pity them. Nothing wrong with pity, though. It's underrated.

I know this isn't directed at me and I'm probably annoying, but I've seen stuff like this thrown around so much that I kind of feel the need to state my worthless opinion on this.
Not everyone works this way. I guess you could say it's a spectrum. Some people need other people more, some less. This also means there are people who genuinely don't care about others. I suppose hermits would be a good example. Some people are the happiest when they're entirely alone. It's the same with e.g. romantic love. Some people crave it, others have no interest in it whatsoever.

You aren't annoying at all. Skepticism only makes the discussion more productive.

I don't disagree, but I think those are very very fringe cases and the vast majority of people benefit from human connection. Considering we're on a website for people who dislike existence so much they want to end it, if someone has no human connection, I'm going to use the information at hand and guess that it's more likely that the lack of human connection is an issue rather than assuming they're one of the very few who could be a happy monk away from society but they're suicidal for another reason.

 

[EmptyHeaded]

In both cases, I'm not talking about specifically romantic love. I mean human connection and support in general. If anyone can't experience that I absolutely pity them. Nothing wrong with pity, though. It's underrated.

Why would you pity them though? You can't miss something you've never experienced. Pitying someone because they can't experience love seems kind of patronising(?) to me. They're not missing out on anything and are just as happy, if not happier.

 

[derpyderpins]

Why would you pity them though? You can't miss something you've never experienced.

So if someone is born deaf and blind with no limbs you won't pity them at all because they don't know what they're missing? That's strange to me. Would you not pity someone who is in physical pain all the time from a disease so long as they've never known anything else? And if you say "no" because they are hurting, I'll say preemptively that I see empathize with psychic pain just like physical pain.

Pitying someone because they can't experience love seems kind of patronising(?) to me. They're not missing out on anything and are just as happy, if not happier.

Again, if someone is completely happy in solitude, that's fine, but people on here are not happy. And I certainly don't mean to be patronizing. Again, I think pity is underrated. I don't think I'm better than anybody. I also very much don't like jumping to the conclusion that someone can't experience love because they haven't yet. We have a tendency to see ourselves as more special and unique and different than we are. Most people can feel love and the vast vast majority benefit from it. Telling someone its fine to give up on human connection because they haven't had it yet is to me like telling them not to try a certain medicine.

 

[sserafim]

So if someone is born deaf and blind with no limbs you won't pity them at all because they don't know what they're missing? That's strange to me. Would you not pity someone who is in physical pain all the time from a disease so long as they've never known anything else? And if you say "no" because they are hurting, I'll say preemptively that I see empathize with psychic pain just like physical pain.



Again, if someone is completely happy in solitude, that's fine, but people on here are not happy. And I certainly don't mean to be patronizing. Again, I think pity is underrated. I don't think I'm better than anybody. I also very much don't like jumping to the conclusion that someone can't experience love because they haven't yet. We have a tendency to see ourselves as more special and unique and different than we are. Most people can feel love and the vast vast majority benefit from it. Telling someone its fine to give up on human connection because they haven't had it yet is to me like telling them not to try a certain medicine.

Some people like me are aromantic and asexual. Love and sex are not requirements of life

 

[EmptyHeaded]

So if someone is born deaf and blind with no limbs you won't pity them at all because they don't know what they're missing? That's strange to me. Would you not pity someone who is in physical pain all the time from a disease so long as they've never known anything else? And if you say "no" because they are hurting, I'll say preemptively that I see empathize with psychic pain just like physical pain.

I don't think you can compare being in constant pain with something like not knowing love. I specifically mentioned the inability to experience love. It's very different to the inability to see or hear or walk. It certainly is patronising to pity someone who can't experience love; it makes quite a few people feel like something is wrong with them or that they're "broken" in some way.

Again, if someone is completely happy in solitude, that's fine, but people on here are not happy. And I certainly don't mean to be patronizing. Again, I think pity is underrated. I don't think I'm better than anybody. I also very much don't like jumping to the conclusion that someone can't experience love because they haven't yet. We have a tendency to see ourselves as more special and unique and different than we are. Most people can feel love and the vast vast majority benefit from it. Telling someone its fine to give up on human connection because they haven't had it yet is to me like telling them not to try a certain medicine.

To my understanding, sserafim is simply not interested in it. That's to be respected and no amount of "I'm sad you never felt love" is going to change it. You don't need to experience something to know that it's not for you.

 

[derpyderpins]

Some people like me are aromantic and asexual. Love and sex are not requirements of life

Sure, some people are aromantic and asexual and live fulfilling lives, but I'm repeating myself at this point to say I wouldn't assume you are asexual and aromantic when you've had such a bad experience with the most fundamental relationship someone has growing up. (Also, again, you fantasize about sex. I'm not going to pretend I understand asexuality but I think that's a sign you might not be asexual.) You're avoiding the larger point by falling back to something that sounds nice to say and allows you to remain in your familiar routine, which - again - is one where you dislike said existence so much you want to ctb.

And you know what, fuck it, I'll say that even if someone is asexual and aromantic but perfectly content I still feel a little bad that they can't experience it because sex and love feel awesome. I don't like soccer. I think it's boring and stupid. I wish I didn't think that. I feel a little bad for myself about it, because I've known a lot of people who really like it and I just can't get myself into it. I would prefer to enjoy it. I've been at a bar in France when a big match was happening and I wish that was a great memory for me but I was bored out of my mind. Doesn't mean anything is wrong with me. It's not patronizing. Enjoying soccer is not necessary for a satisfied life (like love and affection are for the vast majority of people), but it's okay to say that in a perfect world I would be able to enjoy it.