Discussion Clarification of "Stop Online Suicide Assistance Forums Act" - Please read this and quit panicking.

[sufferingextremely]

Shit, there's some gold in this thread. First of all, thank you to @Rocket for your perspective. It's really helpful to get information from someone who helped develop Section 230.

Second, there actually are lobbyists out there defending that little paragraph of law. The Electronic Frontier Foundation is one I know of. They probably don't want to get caught defending this site, but they do good work.
Here's a link to their infographic on the importance of Section 230.

It's true nobody likes us, and nobody's ever going to. Weakening Section 230 is a terrible idea that would negatively effect some powerful industries, however. You know where else "children" can get suicide method information? Fucking Amazon. Final Exit and the Peaceful Pill Handbook are both on there. How do you decide that a once-obscure internet forum has provided "material support" to someone's suicide, but Jeff Bezos hasn't when he sells the same information? At least we're not making money out of the deal.

There's also almost no original methods content on here, except for commonly-known information like how to tie a noose. Well, and weird, desperate stuff on the order of "could I garrote myself with dental floss…?" Probably 80% of methods threads are about either SN or N, and that information is sourced directly from Philip Nitschke. I'm not sure how the U.S. Congress plans on chasing him around, since he doesn't live here. Australia would have to agree to extradite him, which I doubt they would do. The proposed law is idiotic, so why would they agree to comply with that?

Ugh, I hate that shit. I didn't really realize how disgustingly bigoted my country is until the anti-police brutality protests of 2020, and of course what happened to Breonna Taylor. Openly racist people (and there are a lot) are just like, "Screw the n———s." Then there's the closet racists who are "helping" by doing exactly what you said. Telling disenfranchised people they need to shape up and act better so the openly-racist people don't pick on them. Do the openly racist people have to change? Why, no! Do the closet racists intend to change anything about themselves, or alter any of the institutions that favor them? Oh, hell no! And they don't even know they're racists.

That shit made me so angry in 2020 that I almost entirely quit social media. The news, too. I couldn't even go out to the store for a while because just seeing fucking people made me furious. I'm mostly dealing right now, but I'm much more isolated than before. I know as little as I can get away with about anything that happens outside my house.

That is a brilliant fucking point. Can I quote you? If so, do you want to be anonymous? It might be a good idea.

How do I go anonymous? I would like that. And yes you can quote me at any and all costs.

Don't put too much trust in Tor. The FBI, the CIA and many others host their own Tor servers and if they truly want to locate you they eventually will. That is why darknet platforms limit their customer base and/or keep relocating their equipment.

I don't know why they can't just leave us alone. I never did anything to any of these people. Neither did any member of this site. I like our congresspeople, but I don't need them making my decisions for me. The person who started this bill has no medical credentials for one, and even if she did she has no right to interfere with our lives like this.

 

[nolifer]

Don't put too much trust in Tor. The FBI, the CIA and many others host their own Tor servers and if they truly want to locate you they eventually will. That is why darknet platforms limit their customer base and/or keep relocating their equipment.

It takes a lot(!) of tech know how to be able to take on the bloodhounds of the US government. And the EU IT do-gooders have by now also learned to distinguish a bit from a baud.

Also this site is not privacy friendly. You can't sign up to this site with TOR or a VPN, it's against the rules and it's easy to detect. Even the VPN servers which have special servers will eventually be detected when someone else registers an acc with that server.

 

[wait.what]

@sufferingextremely: What I meant by "anonymous" is that I just wouldn't attach your screen name to the quote.

In the unlikely event that this bill gets a hearing next year, I might (also anonymously) write the head of the House Judiciary Committee, who I believe will be a Republican since they have the House majority. Of course I am not going to say "HELP PLZ NEED N TO KILL MYSELF MAKE BAD BILL GO AWAY AAAAAA." Your point above made an impression on me and might also resonate with someone from the "party of small government"*

*except when it comes to military spending or giving police departments tanks or putting a suspicious clergyman in every bedroom to make sure we don't do anything naughty between the sheets.

In truth, Republicans have taken to refusing to hear any bills submitted by a Democrat, which is just "Go, Red Team Go, Hoorah!" nonsense, but in the case of this particular bill, I'm happy if they squash it.

Resistbot is a really easy way to contact your government officials, incidentally. They used to be willing to send paper letters to your representatives as well as allow you to be anonymous, but I can't tell if that functionality is still there. They've changed the page's format, and it looks like it may be more digital now. You do have to pay to use it, but the fee is nominal. It was $5 when I was using it regularly a couple of years ago. It's probably higher now, but most likely still not prohibitive for most people.

I would NOT write the sponsor of the bill in this case. The Fix the 26 people have told her sad stories, and sad anecdotes trump actual common sense every time.

I'll also plug the Electronic Frontier Foundation one more time. I doubt they'd be caught dead standing next to a suicide website, but we do have the common cause of protecting Section 230. It's unlikely they'll help us directly, but we can help ourselves indirectly by helping them. They take donations, and have a newsletter with important issues summarized.

Gods … it sounds like I'm halfway to doing activist shit again. And I quit because it was making my mental health worse.

i r smrt. Yep. S-M-R-T.

 

[Teddybear]

Also this site is not privacy friendly. You can't sign up to this site with TOR or a VPN, it's against the rules and it's easy to detect. Even the VPN servers which have special servers will eventually be detected when someone else registers an acc with that server.

Well, you never know who might be hidding behind a VPN or Tor account. Could be the FBI itself or an evil doer up to no good in the forums. Lots of potential prey pouring their hearts out here.

 

[nolifer]

Well, you never know who might be hidding behind a VPN or Tor account. Could be the FBI itself or an evil doer up to no good in the forums. Lots of potential prey pouring their hearts out here.

That's why this site should be more privacy friendly and start allowing TOR and VPN users. You can use a VPN but not when creating the account so that's basically same as not using a VPN at all.

 

[Cathy Ames]

That's why this site should be more privacy friendly and start allowing TOR and VPN users. You can use a VPN but not when creating the account so that's basically same as not using a VPN at all.

I'm not sure, but is it possible that this is done so as to enable them to make sure that people do not have multiple accounts at one time and that banned people are not returning with new profiles? Is there a different way to do these things?

 

[Teddybear]

The problem with VPN access is one of accountabillity. Some kink dating platforms have begun to block tunnelled acces to their sites, to make sure they can keep the creeps out.

And mind you: Both sides can hide behind walls of secrecy. If you are afraid of trace backs then get yourself a pre-paid SIM card with Internet access and stick that in a USB modem. Enable "private browsing mode" on your end and you are shielded from most attempts to track you down.

Of course should the FBI start an outright manhunt on you, they'd just triangulate your modem's location and that's it. But nobody is gonna go to that extend, just because you outed yourself about your suicidal tendencies in here.

 

[nolifer]

I'm not sure, but is it possible that this is done so as to enable them to make sure that people do not have multiple accounts at one time and that banned people are not returning with new profiles? Is there a different way to do these things?

Malicious users aren't too inconvenienced by VPN detection attempts. It's mostly the innocent users this is harming. Malicious users also don't care if one of their accounts are banned. They can just make lots of accounts, VPN detection won't detect them immediately so that's why it's no problem for them. Plus the really professional malicious users could be using residential proxies and so on. So the VPN detection is really for the most part just a problem for innocent users.

 

[Teddybear]

Malicious users aren't too inconvenienced by VPN detection attempts. It's mostly the innocent users this is harming. Malicious users also don't care if one of their accounts are banned. They can just make lots of accounts, VPN detection won't detect them immediately so that's why it's no problem for them. Plus the really professional malicious users could be using residential proxies and so on. So the VPN detection is really for the most part just a problem for innocent users.

As an IT professioal I beg to differ. Unless you have an army of bots at your disposal - which few users who aren't professional hackers do - its not that ez to get yourself an untracable IP# w/o using VPN or Tor.

I know websites which can identify a PC with almost pinpoint accuracy. There are of course ways around that, but simply being "malicious" doesn't suffice here. You got to know exactly what you are doing.

 

[Cathy Ames]

Malicious users aren't too inconvenienced by VPN detection attempts. It's mostly the innocent users this is harming. Malicious users also don't care if one of their accounts are banned. They can just make lots of accounts, VPN detection won't detect them immediately so that's why it's no problem for them. Plus the really professional malicious users could be using residential proxies and so on. So the VPN detection is really for the most part just a problem for innocent users.

So you are saying that turning off the VPN for the sign-up process does not allow the site to keep track of the IP (or whatever it is) so that they can figure out whether that same IP (or whatever) gets used a second time (for example after getting banned)? I'm sorry. I'm not tech savvy. I assume that there is a valid reason for requiring the VPN to be turned off for signup, but you appear to disagree with my premise that it accomplishes anything of benefit to the site.

 

[nolifer]

As an IT professioal I beg to differ. Unless you have an army of bots at your disposal - which few users who aren't professional hackers do - its not that ez to get yourself an untracable IP# w/o using VPN or Tor.

I know websites which can identify a PC with almost pinpoint accuracy. There are of course ways around that, but simply being "malicious" doesn't suffice here. You got to know exactly what you are doing.

Many VPN providers offer servers which aren't in their list of servers which other websites can lookup. They renew those special servers frequently too. Their purpose is to temporarily bypass vpn detection checks. Keyword is temporarily, because if it's a popular VPN and the website you want access to is also popular then you will probably be detected when other people do the same thing. But a malicious user don't care about being detected later, they just need to temprarily be able to use their account before they make a new one. So this is something most people can do without being a hacker. And if you are just going to break ToS without doing something illegal then you can also create your own VPN server on a VPS or something, also easy to do because setup is mostly automated and there are simple step by step instructions for that.

I think you're talking about something very extreme, like catching pedophiles or something with an active targeted investigation by FBI where they come with warrants to the the vpn provider and everything. So if it's pedophiles you're worried about, then VPNs aren't a problem. A targeted FBI investigation would get them caught. So allowing VPNs wouldn't mean pedophiles are protected. So I don't know why not allow VPNs? Malicious users bypass VPN detection anyway. This is only harming innocents.

 

[Teddybear]

Many VPN providers offer servers which aren't in their list of servers which other websites can lookup. They renew those special servers frequently too. Their purpose is to temporarily bypass vpn detection checks. Keyword is temporarily, because if it's a popular VPN and the website you want access to is also popular then you will probably be detected when other people do the same thing. But a malicious user don't care about being detected later, they just need to temprarily be able to use their account before they make a new one. So this is something most people can do without being a hacker. And if you are just going to break ToS without doing something illegal then you can also create your own VPN server on a VPS or something, also easy to do because setup is mostly automated and there are simple step by step instructions for that.

I think you're talking about something very extreme, like catching pedophiles or something with an active targeted investigation by FBI where they come with warrants to the the vpn provider and everything. So if it's pedophiles you're worried about, then VPNs aren't a problem. A targeted FBI investigation would get them caught. So allowing VPNs wouldn't mean pedophiles are protected. So I don't know why not allow VPNs? Malicious users bypass VPN detection anyway. This is only harming innocents.

You don't need server lists to detect a VPN. A simple comparison of IP# between sessions suffices for that. IP# are region coded and a user seemingly jumping from coast to coast within hours - or all across a city within minutes - is a clear cut sign for an attempt to hide your true origins.

And its not just about pedophiles. There are laws being discussed *right now* that would outlaw most content being discussed on sites like SancSu.

Users trying to hide behind a Tor browser (which, if not used correctly is more of an amusement than a serious hindrance to an IT pro tracking you down) won't shield the platform operators from liabillity for the stuff they are hosting.

So its in *their* best interest to be able to control access to this platform and that is most effectivly done w/o foolishness like Tor & VPN. There is so much BS myth out there about the supposed magical powers of a VPN that any fool with a PuTTY tool thinks he can play hide & seek with the big boys now.

But they took down the Silk Road, they took down Hydra and gosh they'd track 99.9% of Tor users down on this site, too, if they truly put their mind to it.

 

[nolifer]

You don't need server lists to detect a VPN. A simple comparison of IP# between sessions suffices for that. IP# are region coded and a user seemingly jumping from coast to coast within hours - or all across a city within minutes - is a clear cut sign for an attempt to hide your true origins.

And its not just about pedophiles. There are laws being discussed *right now* that would outlaw most content being discussed on sites like SancSu.

Users trying to hide behind a Tor browser (which, if not used correctly is more of an amusement than a serious hindrance to an IT pro tracking you down) won't shield the platform operators from liabillity for the stuff they are hosting.

So its in *their* best interest to be able to control access to this platform and that is most effectivly done w/o foolishness like Tor & VPN. There is so much BS myth out there about the supposed magical powers of a VPN that any fool with a PuTTY tool thinks he can play hide & seek with the big boys now.

But they took down the Silk Road, they took down Hydra and gosh they'd track 99.9% of Tor users down on this site, too, if they truly put their mind to it.

That's why VPN detection is mostly harmful against innocent users. A malicious user wouldn't be too bothered by that method of detection, they'll have access to their account long enough and when their time is up they make a new account.

I also disagree with you that it's so difficult to use TOR browser. It's mostly difficult to host a website on TOR, but just being a user isn't so difficult if you just follow a few guidelines. You would have to be a very very high valued target to be tracked down, and if you're just a normal innocent user then you'll be fine. I think you are still thinking at some really extreme level picturing each user here as some high valued terrorrist or something crazy, if that was true then yes we would all get tracked down but we're all just normal innocent users really.

 

[Teddybear]

That's why VPN detection is mostly harmful against innocent users. A malicious user wouldn't be too bothered by that method of detection, they'll have access to their account long enough and when their time is up they make a new account.

I also disagree with you that it's so difficult to use TOR browser. It's mostly difficult to host a website on TOR, but just being a user isn't so difficult if you just follow a few guidelines. You would have to be a very very high valued target to be tracked down, and if you're just a normal innocent user then you'll be fine. I think you are still thinking at some really extreme level picturing each user here as some high valued terrorrist or something crazy, if that was true then yes we would all get tracked down but we're all just normal innocent users really.

You keep going on about "malicious users" who are supposedly all IT genuises vs. "innocent ones" who shouldn't be prohibited from using any means of access to the site they like.

But this is not a debatte about gun ownership. Its about access control to this website *for the protection of its operators*.

And it doesn't matter if a user thinks of himself as innocent. If he gets banned or in any way restricted the process of administrating that ought to be as straightforward as possible.

I block entire regions from my website and I don't care how many think they should get access to it nevertheless.
I know where most hackers sit and that's it for me.

Not allowing VPN or Tor makes life easier for the admins. Permitting it on the other hand would only give the vast majority - who got no clue how to use these tools right - a dangerously false sense of security.

You, too, adhere to the unfortunate believe that hiding behind a Tor server would make you untracable. But all it takes is a certain way of talking, prefferring specific phrases or repeating the same spelling errors across multiple websites, reusing a unique Avatar/user ID or not enabling private browsing mode and bam! - you just revealed yourself. And then visiting even one of those sites w/o your IP# hidden means your secret identity just got revealed, too.

On top of that: If you are browsing from your smartphone or tablet then you are using a high-tech spy-on-me device to try and hide yourself.
Even a minimal setup contains countless apps that are *constantly* calling home, leaving a trail of breadcrumbs all too easy to follow.

 

[Cathy Ames]

@Teddybear thanks. That was very helpful for me. And then the VPN or Tor can be used again once the signup is done, so it represents a minor compromise, basically? If I understand correctly. Thanks again.

 

[Teddybear]

@Teddybear thanks. That was very helpful for me. And then the VPN or Tor can be used again once the signup is done, so it represents a minor compromise, basically? If I understand correctly. Thanks again.

A VPN is nothing but an encryption layer wrapped around your data stream. The trick lies in the fact that the encryption, in combination with port switching, makes it impossibe for an outsider to listen in on you or track you. That's the theory. Problem is this only prevents tracking securely if its used *permanently*.

So you need a dedicated hardened system that will *never* get hooked up to the Net w/o a VPN. That's how its done by IT pros.

Tor - the onion router - adds on that concept by using mix-cascades to constantly change IP#. Yet this approach, too, suffers from the same problem: Either you use it always or its just a question of time before you slip up.

They caught some of the greatest hackers, because these kids used similar phrases and/or bragged about the same deeds on multiple websites. And then it took only 1 access to 1 site w/o encryption and the gig was up for them.

 

[nolifer]

You keep going on about "malicious users" who are supposedly all IT genuises vs. "innocent ones" who shouldn't be prohibited from using any means of access to the site they like.

But this is not a debatte about gun ownership. Its about access control to this website *for the protection of its operators*.

And it doesn't matter if a user thinks of himself as innocent. If he gets banned or in any way restricted the process of administrating that ought to be as straightforward as possible.

I block entire regions from my website and I don't care how many think they should get access to it nevertheless.
I know where most hackers sit and that's it for me.

Not allowing VPN or Tor makes life easier for the admins. Permitting it on the other hand would only give the vast majority - who got no clue how to use these tools right - a dangerously false sense of security.

You, too, adhere to the unfortunate believe that hiding behind a Tor server would make you untracable. But all it takes is a certain way of talking, prefferring specific phrases or repeating the same spelling errors across multiple websites, reusing a unique Avatar/user ID or not enabling private browsing mode and bam! - you just revealed yourself. And then visiting even one of those sites w/o your IP# hidden means your secret identity just got revealed, too.

On top of that: If you are browsing from your smartphone or tablet then you are using a high-tech spy-on-me device to try and hide yourself.
Even a minimal setup contains countless apps that are *constantly* calling home, leaving a trail of breadcrumbs all too easy to follow.

You don't need to be a genius to use a VPN. It's very simple. Just install, enable, done. And almost everyone know about VPNs too because it's advertised in almost every youtube video and torrenting sites.

Most people can bypass VPN detection for malicious intentions if they want to. Most people are not malicious users though.

Anyway I think lets just agree to disagree. You are anti-privacy and seem to want VPNs banned from the internet. And you are talking about these extreme situations constantly, about spelling specific phrases the same way and so on. Once again we're just normal innocent users, not some kind of most wanted criminals.

 

[Teddybear]

You don't need to be a genius to use a VPN. It's very simple. Just install, enable, done. And almost everyone know about VPNs too because it's advertised in almost every youtube video and torrenting sites.

Most people can bypass VPN detection for malicious intentions if they want to. Most people are not malicious users though.

Anyway I think lets just agree to disagree. You are anti-privacy and seem to want VPNs banned from the internet. And you are talking about these extreme situations constantly, about spelling specific phrases the same way and so on. Once again we're just normal innocent users, not some kind of most wanted criminals.

You don't need to be a genius to get caught by the FBI or other government agencies either. Have you ever set up a Virtual Private Network yourself? I am not talking about installing some app on your phone.

I do this kind of stuff for a living and its a myth to believe that a VPN by itself would protect you from anything.

I am not "anti-privacy" but as a pro I am strongly opposed to IT idiocy.

 

[nolifer]

You don't need to be a genius to get caught by the FBI or other government agencies either. Have you ever set up a Virtual Private Network yourself? I am not talking about installing some app on your phone.

I do this kind of stuff for a living and its a myth to believe that a VPN by itself would protect you from anything.

I am not "anti-privacy" but as a pro I am strongly opposed to IT idiocy.

Self proclaimed pro doesn't mean anything really. Anyone can start a website and not know what HTTP is.

You are spreading misinformation saying that a VPN does't protect you by itself and there's proof for that. Video streaming sites like netflix only do IP check to decide which videos to show you. That's all. Discord also only do IP check and they don't prohibit VPN. But if the AI triggers from suspect behavior like spamming and reports then your account will be frozen and need to give them a phone number.

You are still thinking on an extreme level where we're some most wanted criminals and have to evade a targeted investigation by FBI.

Yes, VPN doesn't protect you if you're a big time wanted criminal but we're not criminals. VPN protects normal innocent users privacy. It also helps some malicious users evade bans but prohibiting and detecting VPN doesn't stop those malicious users, it only harms the innocents.

I also think it's unethical of you to blacklist entire regions just because statistically there is a larger amount of malicious users in that region. It's same problem that foreigners have, because statistically foreigners cause the most crime and then racism begins because of that which harms all the innocent foreigners as well. It's like guilty until proven innocent mindset instead of innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Teddybear]

Self proclaimed pro doesn't mean anything really. Anyone can start a website and not know what HTTP is.

You are spreading misinformation saying that a VPN does't protect you by itself and there's proof for that. Video streaming sites like netflix only do IP check to decide which videos to show you. That's all. Discord also only do IP check and they don't prohibit VPN. But if the AI triggers from suspect behavior like spamming and reports then your account will be frozen and need to give them a phone number.

You are still thinking on an extreme level where we're some most wanted criminals and have to evade a targeted investigation by FBI.

Yes, VPN doesn't protect you if you're a big time wanted criminal but we're not criminals. VPN protects normal innocent users privacy. It also helps some malicious users evade bans but prohibiting and detecting VPN doesn't stop those malicious users, it only harms the innocents.

I also think it's unethical of you to blacklist entire regions just because statistically there is a larger amount of malicious users in that region. It's same problem that foreigners have, because statistically foreigners cause the most crime and then racism begins because of that which harms all the innocent foreigners as well. It's like guilty until proven innocent mindset instead of innocent until proven guilty.

Do whatever you want. I am done here.

 

[wait.what]

But all it takes is a certain way of talking, prefferring specific phrases or repeating the same spelling errors across multiple websites, reusing a unique Avatar/user ID or not enabling private browsing mode and bam! - you just revealed yourself.

Why would anyone bother, though? I'm not an IT pro, and I have no skin in the game about VPN's. I've tried to use Tor but its slowness drives me nuts. Mostly I'm just curious.

Years ago I modded a website where we had trouble with a particular idiot. He'd done something incredibly cruel to a user I was friends with, and he pissed me off. He had a lot of accounts, and we'd been playing whack-a-mole with him. I tracked him down just as you said, through his posting idiosyncrasies and a really unusual combination of IP addresses. (He used a satellite company that specialized in bringing internet access to remote parts of the Rockies where they had no regular cable or phone lines.) The admins got him because he kept using the same password across multiple accounts.

This took me hours, though. It's a huge pain in the ass to play linguistics professor, wondering if semi-literate account A belongs to the same person who uses semi-literate account B. I never did it again. Occasionally I'd compare user IP's just because I was bored or curious—we all did. But trawling through random posts on topics I didn't care about was just too time-consuming and annoying. You don't do that unless you're really motivated and have a lot of time on your hands.

Ultimately, FBI agents are still government workers, and I expect that means high workloads, excessive paperwork, and bosses who keep demanding things that are both stupid and impossible. They'd have to prioritize their time heavily. Anything that adds to the time it would take to hunt a user down would push that user lower on the priority list, unless they'd done something horrible like bomb a subway. (That's not what ctb is supposed to meeeean!) So I can see using a VPN and Tor as being worthwhile. Even in the worst case, it might move you from being Public Enemy #1 to Public Enemy #4, which is something. Then again, if Tor is too annoying to use for you, I doubt you've exposed yourself to substantially more danger.

For what it's worth, what brought that guy from A.S.H. down wasn't the government at all, it was other users. I can't remember his name, but it was something like Milquetoast, so I'll call him that. Milquetoast wasn't suicidal, he was a death fetishist. He slid into the DM's of users looking for suicide partners, and pressured them to hang themselves in front of a camera, so he could watch. Nobody ever did, but one young woman he'd been talking to did take her own life. (Off camera, blessedly.)

Maybe she would have done it anyway, and maybe she wouldn't have. But the regular users were understandably upset that there was this pervert among them, taking advantage of lonely, suffering people so he could add to his personal wank bank. An A.S.H. user and an outside civilian person conducted a sting on him and sent the evidence to the police.

Milquetoast's mistakes were, in order:

1) Being a death fetishist trying to goad people into killing themselves. (This was not "Clear skies, friend," this was "Do it! Dooooo it!!")

2) Pissing off other A.S.H. users. "Do not poo where you chew," as the saying goes.

3) Being ignorant of the laws in his jurisdiction. It turned out that his state had a law against assisted suicide, leftover from the Dr. Kevorkian days. (It was later ruled unconstitutional.)

4) Posting identifying information about himself. He used a fake name and pretended to be an Asian woman instead of the white man he was, but what did him in was saying where he lived. Identifying the jurisdiction he was in told police what laws he'd be subject to, and that led to his conviction under the anti-assisted suicide law. In his case, he was so awful that the cops would have dug for his location if he hadn't revealed it, but he did. If he'd been a normal user, keeping his mouth shut about that would have meant they needed to get access to his IP address from Usenet, which might have required a warrant, which would have been more work and more time. That would have made him a less-appealing target. (Actually, I don't know what kind of entity Usenet was. Who would they have served a warrant to …?)

Anyway, do zero of those things, and you'll probably be fine.

statistically foreigners cause the most crime

Where did you hear that? That makes no sense to me.

Also, not trying to antagonize you, @Teddybear. I'd been meaning to make that "don't be this guy" post for some time.

 

[nolifer]

Why would anyone bother, though? I'm not an IT pro, and I have no skin in the game about VPN's. I've tried to use Tor but its slowness drives me nuts. Mostly I'm just curious.

Years ago I modded a website where we had trouble with a particular idiot. He'd done something incredibly cruel to a user I was friends with, and he pissed me off. He had a lot of accounts, and we'd been playing whack-a-mole with him. I tracked him down just as you said, through his posting idiosyncrasies and a really unusual combination of IP addresses. (He used a satellite company that specialized in bringing internet access to remote parts of the Rockies where they had no regular cable or phone lines.) The admins got him because he kept using the same password across multiple accounts.

This took me hours, though. It's a huge pain in the ass to play linguistics professor, wondering if semi-literate account A belongs to the same person who uses semi-literate account B. I never did it again. Occasionally I'd compare user IP's just because I was bored or curious—we all did. But trawling through random posts on topics I didn't care about was just too time-consuming and annoying. You don't do that unless you're really motivated and have a lot of time on your hands.

Ultimately, FBI agents are still government workers, and I expect that means high workloads, excessive paperwork, and bosses who keep demanding things that are both stupid and impossible. They'd have to prioritize their time heavily. Anything that adds to the time it would take to hunt a user down would push that user lower on the priority list, unless they'd done something horrible like bomb a subway. (That's not what ctb is supposed to meeeean!) So I can see using a VPN and Tor as being worthwhile. Even in the worst case, it might move you from being Public Enemy #1 to Public Enemy #4, which is something. Then again, if Tor is too annoying to use for you, I doubt you've exposed yourself to substantially more danger.

For what it's worth, what brought that guy from A.S.H. down wasn't the government at all, it was other users. I can't remember his name, but it was something like Milquetoast, so I'll call him that. Milquetoast wasn't suicidal, he was a death fetishist. He slid into the DM's of users looking for suicide partners, and pressured them to hang themselves in front of a camera, so he could watch. Nobody ever did, but one young woman he'd been talking to did take her own life. (Off camera, blessedly.)

Maybe she would have done it anyway, and maybe she wouldn't have. But the regular users were understandably upset that there was this pervert among them, taking advantage of lonely, suffering people so he could add to his personal wank bank. An A.S.H. user and an outside civilian person conducted a sting on him and sent the evidence to the police.

Milquetoast's mistakes were, in order:

1) Being a death fetishist trying to goad people into killing themselves. (This was not "Clear skies, friend," this was "Do it! Dooooo it!!")

2) Pissing off other A.S.H. users. "Do not poo where you chew," as the saying goes.

3) Being ignorant of the laws in his jurisdiction. It turned out that his state had a law against assisted suicide, leftover from the Dr. Kevorkian days. (It was later ruled unconstitutional.)

4) Posting identifying information about himself. He used a fake name and pretended to be an Asian woman instead of the white man he was, but what did him in was saying where he lived. Identifying the jurisdiction he was in told police what laws he'd be subject to, and that led to his conviction under the anti-assisted suicide law. In his case, he was so awful that the cops would have dug for his location if he hadn't revealed it, but he did. If he'd been a normal user, keeping his mouth shut about that would have meant they needed to get access to his IP address from Usenet, which might have required a warrant, which would have been more work and more time. That would have made him a less-appealing target. (Actually, I don't know what kind of entity Usenet was. Who would they have served a warrant to …?)

Anyway, do zero of those things, and you'll probably be fine.

Where did you hear that? That makes no sense to me.

Also, not trying to antagonize you, @Teddybear. I'd been meaning to make that "don't be this guy" post for some time.

Don't want to share specifically where I'm from but EU countries had to take in a lot of foreigners who were fleeing their countries during times of war. And it wasn't easy to integrate so many people all at once which caused lots of problems. I don't know how many EU countries this applies to but at least where I'm from the statistics come from the police which say foreigners cause the most crime by far. So it's not an unofficial source or something like that. Anyway I don't approve of judging all foreigners just because they have a larger amount of criminals. Most of them are still innocent. I prefer thinking positively and everyone should be innocent until proven guilty.

The story you said is a good example that VPNs don't protect you if you are doing something very illegal. All it takes is a warrant and they will be caught. VPNs are not a a good tool for criminals, it's a privacy tool for innocent normal people. If you use a VPN for crime then there is a big risk of being caught.

 

[Teddybear]

Why would anyone bother, though? I'm not an IT pro, and I have no skin in the game about VPN's. I've tried to use Tor but its slowness drives me nuts. Mostly I'm just curious.

Years ago I modded a website where we had trouble with a particular idiot. He'd done something incredibly cruel to a user I was friends with, and he pissed me off. He had a lot of accounts, and we'd been playing whack-a-mole with him. I tracked him down just as you said, through his posting idiosyncrasies and a really unusual combination of IP addresses. (He used a satellite company that specialized in bringing internet access to remote parts of the Rockies where they had no regular cable or phone lines.) The admins got him because he kept using the same password across multiple accounts.

This took me hours, though. It's a huge pain in the ass to play linguistics professor, wondering if semi-literate account A belongs to the same person who uses semi-literate account B. I never did it again. Occasionally I'd compare user IP's just because I was bored or curious—we all did. But trawling through random posts on topics I didn't care about was just too time-consuming and annoying. You don't do that unless you're really motivated and have a lot of time on your hands.

Ultimately, FBI agents are still government workers, and I expect that means high workloads, excessive paperwork, and bosses who keep demanding things that are both stupid and impossible. They'd have to prioritize their time heavily. Anything that adds to the time it would take to hunt a user down would push that user lower on the priority list, unless they'd done something horrible like bomb a subway. (That's not what ctb is supposed to meeeean!) So I can see using a VPN and Tor as being worthwhile. Even in the worst case, it might move you from being Public Enemy #1 to Public Enemy #4, which is something. Then again, if Tor is too annoying to use for you, I doubt you've exposed yourself to substantially more danger.

For what it's worth, what brought that guy from A.S.H. down wasn't the government at all, it was other users. I can't remember his name, but it was something like Milquetoast, so I'll call him that. Milquetoast wasn't suicidal, he was a death fetishist. He slid into the DM's of users looking for suicide partners, and pressured them to hang themselves in front of a camera, so he could watch. Nobody ever did, but one young woman he'd been talking to did take her own life. (Off camera, blessedly.)

Maybe she would have done it anyway, and maybe she wouldn't have. But the regular users were understandably upset that there was this pervert among them, taking advantage of lonely, suffering people so he could add to his personal wank bank. An A.S.H. user and an outside civilian person conducted a sting on him and sent the evidence to the police.

Milquetoast's mistakes were, in order:

1) Being a death fetishist trying to goad people into killing themselves. (This was not "Clear skies, friend," this was "Do it! Dooooo it!!")

2) Pissing off other A.S.H. users. "Do not poo where you chew," as the saying goes.

3) Being ignorant of the laws in his jurisdiction. It turned out that his state had a law against assisted suicide, leftover from the Dr. Kevorkian days. (It was later ruled unconstitutional.)

4) Posting identifying information about himself. He used a fake name and pretended to be an Asian woman instead of the white man he was, but what did him in was saying where he lived. Identifying the jurisdiction he was in told police what laws he'd be subject to, and that led to his conviction under the anti-assisted suicide law. In his case, he was so awful that the cops would have dug for his location if he hadn't revealed it, but he did. If he'd been a normal user, keeping his mouth shut about that would have meant they needed to get access to his IP address from Usenet, which might have required a warrant, which would have been more work and more time. That would have made him a less-appealing target. (Actually, I don't know what kind of entity Usenet was. Who would they have served a warrant to …?)

Anyway, do zero of those things, and you'll probably be fine.

Where did you hear that? That makes no sense to me.

Also, not trying to antagonize you, @Teddybear. I'd been meaning to make that "don't be this guy" post for some time.

The public accessibility of SancSu reduces any idea of "privacy" here to a joke, regardless how it is accessed by its user base.

First rule of the Web: If you can read it, you can spy on it.

If the authorities - or your parents, or your other relatives or your <…> - ever do get pointed in this direction, then identifying who is who would just be an intellectual exercise.

Not much need to crack IP# for this. The details many of us reveal about our current situation would totally suffice for that.

So stop being paranoid and just accept that "privacy" is largely an illusion in the days of XKeyscore and company.

It is for that specific reason that I never cheer on folks to just "do it, do it!" so no need to tell me "don't be that guy".

If a grieving parent wants to find out about you, they can w/o messing around with the courts or the FBI. As for myself, I literally have 0 people left who care. Not even the neigbors do. Not that I blame them, this house is full of folks who got troubles of their own to worry.

I came here to *finally* be open and outspoken about my depression and I just wish more people would be able and permitted(!) to speak about that sheyit outright.

Yet until that day there are only two options left: Sink the whole of SancSu into the depth of the Darknet and limit access to a verified user base or reveal next to nothing about yourself when posting here. Which at least for me would defeat the purpose of this site.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I feel like we've maybe strayed too far from the original topic…

 

[wait.what]

Don't want to share specifically where I'm from but EU countries had to take in a lot of foreigners who were fleeing their countries during times of war.

I see. I'm in the U.S., where our last president made that sort of claim a lot. He'd insinuate that Mexicans were all rapists and Chinese people were going around intentionally infecting people with covid, etc. None of it was true, but some people loved it and went around repeating it ad nauseam. "Most crimes are committed by foreigners" sounds like something they'd say. My apologies for making the the foolish assumption that you were American.

I'm vaguely aware of the refugee situation in Europe, but I'm not well-informed enough to comment

It is for that specific reason that I never cheer on folks to just "do it, do it!" so no need to tell me "don't be that guy".

I wasn't really trying to suggest that the place is crawling with death fetishists. I doubt a death fetishist would care what I said about their "hobby" anyway. Mostly I was thinking that no list of what's-his-name's missteps would be complete without mentioning the elephant in the room, namely that the guy goaded people toward suicide because it gave him the hots.

 

[nolifer]

I feel like we've maybe strayed too far from the original topic…

Yeah I'm sorry about being involved in that. I really didn't want to debate VPNs for so many posts but it's hard to just leave in the middle of a debate, and the debate started in a relavent way to the main topic.

 

[Teddybear]

I wasn't really trying to suggest that the place is crawling with death fetishists. I doubt a death fetishist would care what I said about their "hobby" anyway. Mostly I was thinking that no list of what's-his-name's missteps would be complete without mentioning the elephant in the room, namely that the guy goaded people toward suicide because it gave him the hots.

Oh, I have seen "death fetishists" commit their ghastly deeds on this platform. But I've also observed Trump fascists on Facebook and commy lawbreakers post on Reddit.

For me the crooked thoughts of some are no justification for sending everyone else running for cover.

 

[dustyfurcollector]

There is gonna be a lot of venting in this reply, so reader beware, I warn in advance:

For as long as I can remember people in my immediate surroundings have been telling me "you are just imagining things! Go work on yourself and it will all go away. The problem is with you - not us!"

The beatings, the racism, the drug abuse - neither my mother, nor her abusive brother or any of my cowardly teachers would admit that there was something wrong with me being called "Nigger", "Son of the Monkeyman" and worse.

It took strangers - the parents of other schools children in my class or my deceased cousin - to tell me that the way they treated me was neither normal nor acceptable.

But by that time my childhood was over and done with and our past defines our presence and NONE OF THAT SHIT WILL GO AWAY JUST BECAUSE I LEARN TO JIGGLE MY EYEBALLS!!

I have white "liberals" lecture me on Facebook how I am supposed to call myself and the same whiteys who cry for the world look the other side when I'll get pulled out of the queue for a "random inspection" - yet none of the whites are "randomly chosen".

After 9/11 I couldn't check into any Motel w/o a "concerned citizen" calling the cops on me.

THIS SHEYIT IS REAL AND NO F*CKING PSYCHOLOGIST IS GONNA TELL ME TO JIGGLE MY EYES TO MAKE IT GO AWAY!!

I want the people - specially those from the do-gooder faction - to finally talk *honestly* about their own racism.

I wanted to get *practical* advise on how to have a final clearing conversation with my dying mom - instead I was told to learn to look the other way.

WHAT I EXPERIENCED WAS REAL AND I REFUSE BEING TAUGHT THAT I ONLY IMAGINED IT!!!

None of that was my fault - so why don't they teach my racist, violent, abusive Uncle how to look the other way?

The guy who kicked me out of his house, where I went to tell him how his sister died - just because I tried to talk with him about the night he beat up my mother in front of me for having "gotten herself impregnated by a nigger!"

I was barely sixteen years old at the time and only now * after she died - did I find out that he beat my mom regularly over the years.

And then the guy who didn't even show up for my mom's wake or funeral has the guts to act insulted.

Fuck EMDR!!! I want someone to take me serious, specially if I pay him or her for it!

Complete strangers and my kid cousin could do it, but not a woman who claims to be a professional psychologist?

I spend weeks alone in the appartment - with my mother gone to work - alone with my dying, moaning father next door. They cut him limb from limb and all that was left were his crutches leaning on the wall.

Weeks got damn it - HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO WIGGLE THAT AWAY WITH MY EYEBALLS?!!"

My fellow classmates tried to shuff me off the school roof, to see if "the nigger makes a brown spot when he hits the pavement"

And my respectful teachers told me: "Don't be upset if they call you a nigger - you are one!"

My whole life have I been denied by people whose job it would have been to take me serious. Would they also send a white traumatized rape victim away to Eyeball Theraphy, just to get rid of her?!
On second thought: Are you just trying to make a sale's pitch here?

I don't believe in a God so I think the absolute worst thing I can say is dear God. The absolute complete total evil that was done to you is beyond bearable. It sounds like you're from the American southeast. I am so sorry white people hurt you so badly. I can't imagine how you haven't gone full serial killer. This will sound tried, but I mean it sincerely when I tell you this is some of the worst stuff I've heard and I can't believe how strong you are to still be able to be alive. My troubles are nothing in the presence of yours. That therapist is the worst. Your family. My God. I just am so sorry.

Honestly that place should be the canary in the coalmine; if anything goes, it realistically ought to be among, if not the first.

Congrats @Cathy Ames - this post has been pinned. Despite the banner still showing up telling people to take up arms. Lol

I don't know where all these things at the bottom of everyone's posts are but this one is incredible

Hypnosis? Why not electroshocks or the pink pill?

If it helps you fine, but I am suffering from a lack of social justice. I am trying to get my immediate surroundings - the people who were supposed to care - to admit I was wronged.

And that gets more and more impossible, as they keep dying all before me.

W/o my memories I am just another loser who didn't cut it in life. With them at least I can explain how I got where I am.

I know I will fail in my quest, for time is not on my side. But no one will ever be allowed to suggest to me "just don't get so upset about it and they will stop tormenting you, for they will lose their fun w/o you crying"

Try to stop crying if they spit on you all the way.

I don't want to block or erase my memories, I want(ed) to find a way to live with them.

OK, that didn't work out. So now I need to find a way to die with them.

I replied before I got further down. I don't like to hug, and I'm sure more ppl don't want me to hug them, but... I'm offering. Everyone in your life has failed you

Hypnosis? Why not electroshocks or the pink pill?

If it helps you fine, but I am suffering from a lack of social justice. I am trying to get my immediate surroundings - the people who were supposed to care - to admit I was wronged.

And that gets more and more impossible, as they keep dying all before me.

W/o my memories I am just another loser who didn't cut it in life. With them at least I can explain how I got where I am.

I know I will fail in my quest, for time is not on my side. But no one will ever be allowed to suggest to me "just don't get so upset about it and they will stop tormenting you, for they will lose their fun w/o you crying"

Try to stop crying if they spit on you all the way.

I don't want to block or erase my memories, I want(ed) to find a way to live with them.

OK, that didn't work out. So now I need to find a way to die with them.

I replied before I got further down. I don't like to hug, and I'm sure more ppl don't want me to hug them, but... I'm offering. Everyone in your life has failed you

 

[Teddybear]

I don't believe in a God so I think the absolute worst thing I can say is dear God. The absolute complete total evil that was done to you is beyond bearable. It sounds like you're from the American southeast. I am so sorry white people hurt you so badly. I can't imagine how you haven't gone full serial killer. This will sound tried, but I mean it sincerely when I tell you this is some of the worst stuff I've heard and I can't believe how strong you are to still be able to be alive. My troubles are nothing in the presence of yours. That therapist is the worst. Your family. My God. I just am so sorry.
...

Well, I hug you right back.

I spend only part of my life in the States, the best years of which I lived on the Navajo Rez in the four corner's area. But I was born and raised in Germany.1963 - the year Kennedy got shot - was when I first saw the light of day, only to find myself surrounded by the true, legitimate Nazi folk. Men and women who had managed to escape the catastrophe of war and defeat, with their world view intact and their racial hatred undiminished.

When they looked at me it was with views of disgust and bewilderment: "Oh, it can talk in complete sentences - and its even speaks our tongue!"

They bestowed their narrow minded views onto their children, who I had as classmates in school. Even my teachers treated me like some exotic creature that had somehow managed to escape its enclosure.

"N*gger" was not meant as a cussword for me, but rather as my new first name. Pupils, teachers and elders alike, they all looked at the "son of the monkey man" and asked me how come I could speak "their language" so well. Or sometimes they just skipped the formalities and started beating me outright.

This racism has been burnt into me like an iron brand and no amount of talk theraphy can get that out of me. I look in the mirror and what I see is a monkey grinning back.

I feel a rage boiling inside that could kill a thousand men - and then go yank off in the bathtub over it. My soul is broken, shattered and ripped into a thousand splinters.

Yet on the surface I smile, I bow my head - until the first fool lits the fuse on this brother with an attitude.

 

[dustyfurcollector]

Well, I hug you right back.

I spend only part of my life in the States, the best years of which I lived on the Navajo Rez in the four corner's area. But I was born and raised in Germany.1963 - the year Kennedy got shot - was when I first saw the light of day, only to find myself surrounded by the true, legitimate Nazi folk. Men and women who had managed to escape the catastrophe of war and defeat, with their world view intact and their racial hatred undiminished.

When they looked at me it was with views of disgust and bewilderment: "Oh, it can talk in complete sentences - and its even speaks our tongue!"

They bestowed their narrow minded views onto their children, who I had as classmates in school. Even my teachers treated me like some exotic creature that had somehow managed to escape its enclosure.

"N*gger" was not meant as a cussword for me, but rather as my new first name. Pupils, teachers and elders alike, they all looked at the "son of the monkey man" and asked me how come I could speak "their language" so well. Or sometimes they just skipped the formalities and started beating me outright.

This racism has been burnt into me like an iron brand and no amount of talk theraphy can get that out of me. I look in the mirror and what I see is a monkey grinning back.

I feel a rage boiling inside that could kill a thousand men - and then go yank off in the bathtub over it. My soul is broken, shattered and ripped into a thousand splinters.

Yet on the surface I smile, I bow my head - until the first fool lits the fuse on this brother with an attitude.

Now I understand better. Nazis. The worst evil there has ever been. And it seems they are cropping up everywhere. I'm so glad you had those years on the reservation to have something to hold on to. I honestly have the deepest sadness for your hate filled upbringing. And to go for help for concrete and exceptionally hard reasons and to be treated this way. No one life should have this much trauma.