Venting Can we please just stop...

[Dante_]

Guiding people or instructing them on what to do, I know some people here are quite enthusiastic in wanting to help and share years of acquired knowledge with others but honestly, it blurs the line of encouragement which is different than strict discussion of a method. I think everyone here, who does their research, is capable of figuring things out on their own without any direction or suggestion to try a different method that may be more "suitable" to their pain tolerance, using this forum responsibly should also come with discretion, to not engage in discussion with anyone that asks for any "how to do" or "what do i do if i dont have...". Any guidance/encouragement threatens to harm the forum, to normalize what shouldn't be along with dangerous misinformation , please report it and lastly...adhere to the rules.

 

[bb142342]

But what happens when no one speaks up anymore? Or—as is happening here—when sources are vehemently kept secret, even though someone has been searching for years and is growing increasingly desperate? How, then, is one supposed to view this situation?

On the regular internet, people believe they have found a source, but 99 percent of the time, they end up being scammed out of their money.

Unfortunately, there are simply people who—whether due to illness, pain, or a sudden change in life circumstances—do not wish to spend years writing and debating.
When people are so resistant to cooperating, it ultimately leads to the use of harsh methods.

And surely, that is a terrible outcome.

Moreover, not everyone wants to entrust themselves to organizations—only to wait months on end, and ultimately have to pay five-figure sums.

 

[Kayla]

People are just living up to what the news articles say. People want to claim that the news articles are wrong and that this site doesn't encourage ctb, yet you see it time and time again where people are, in fact, encouraging someone to ctb.

 

[bb142342]

But can it be called incitement if someone actively—of their own volition—searches for a source, and is subsequently provided with an address?

 

[Matchaaa]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. From what I understand, some discussions simply involve several people exchanging different perspectives about a particular method, even when one of them had already decided beforehand to use that method.

Of course, if someone is explicitly encouraging or pressuring others—for example, saying things like "Your death would be better for XX people" or "You should use this method to die quickly"—then that should absolutely be prohibited. But simply discussing methods may not necessarily count as encouragement.

If this is genuinely having a serious negative impact on the forum, then I can understand why such measures are considered necessary.

 

[skybox]

There's a difference between sharing and safety. People catching the bus want to make sure they do it correctly. Telling someone the sources where to obtain SN, meds, ropes, coals, etc would where I agree. Encouraging people to take their lives in inherently wrong

 

[Aflame5926]

@Dante_

would it maybe an idea when new users create an account to have a system message showing what you can discuss and that this a do your own research and not spoonfeeding them type of website?

instead of pinning this message which will be gone in a few days

 

[thelostautistic]

100% agree. There's way too much casual encouragement here.

 

[tooafraidtodiez]

But then what's the purpose of this forum?
If you just want to get a keep holding on life gets better etc type of comment R/Suicidewatch is a better place for that. There are people with unknown physical conditions or deep financial crisis that need a somewhat "peaceful" way to go. People helping with stuff in dm or comment is acceptable as long you're not encouraging them to do it. They decide what they want to do with the information that they have. It's the most frustrating when you are at a point where life is just pure suffering due to circumstances but you can't end it, it's their right to be able to have peace too

 

[behindtheveil]

This is the last place where you'd want any restrictions to be put in place. Our lives are already full of it. Ending one's life is a big and almost the last decision they will ever make. It needs to be pondered and discussed with every bit of empathy, patience and whatever else it may take. Cause the world doesn't care or listen and all we have is each other.

 

[Ashu]

People are just living up to what the news articles say. People want to claim that the news articles are wrong and that this site doesn't encourage ctb, yet you see it time and time again where people are, in fact, encouraging someone to ctb.

The criterion is the OPs own stated attitude to suicide. We encourage a brother or sister in the position that they have reached, and if that position is the decision to kill themselves, we encourage them to follow their destiny as they have discovered it. This is fundamentally different from incitement.

 

[thelostautistic]

But then what's the purpose of this forum?
If you just want to get a keep holding on life gets better etc type of comment R/Suicidewatch is a better place for that. There are people with unknown physical conditions or deep financial crisis that need a somewhat "peaceful" way to go. People helping with stuff in dm or comment is acceptable as long you're not encouraging them to do it.

I was under the impression that this forum was a place for suicidal people to express their thoughts and feelings without the threat of being hospitalised. A place to speak to people that truly get our pain. I understand that methods and sources are spoken about here too and I have my own thoughts on that. I wouldn't say people dming others about sources is "acceptable". It's not encouragement but it's definitely assistance. I'm pro choice all the way but at the same time I'm never going to encourage someone or help someone to harm themselves because that's wrong.

 

[Forveleth]

I have asked about this on and gotten no answer. I have reported threads of people directly asking for instructions on how to die and GETTING ANSWERS and those threads were never taken down.

What you have stated here is a large change to the previously stated rules that I have seen from other mods. If this is the case, an announcement thread CLEARLT STATING the new rule interpretation should be posted.

If the mod team thinks there is a TOS violation then the rules need to be updated and/or clarified and then ENFORCED!

 

[RENOX]

Guiding people or instructing them on what to do, I know some people here are quite enthusiastic in wanting to help and share years of acquired knowledge with others but honestly, it blurs the line of encouragement which is different than strict discussion of a method. I think everyone here, who does their research, is capable of figuring things out on their own without any direction or suggestion to try a different method that may be more "suitable" to their pain tolerance, using this forum responsibly should also come with discretion, to not engage in discussion with anyone that asks for any "how to do" or "what do i do if i dont have...". Any guidance/encouragement threatens to harm the forum, to normalize what shouldn't be along with dangerous misinformation , please report it and lastly...adhere to the rules.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. And if we're being real, no one comes here to recover. Most of us are tired of this life

 

[thelostautistic]

I have asked about this on and gotten no answer. I have reported threads of people directly asking for instructions on how to die and GETTING ANSWERS and those threads were never taken down.

What you have stated here is a large change to the previously stated rules that I have seen from other mods. If this is the case, an announcement thread CLEARLT STATING the new rule interpretation should be posted.

If the mod team thinks there is a TOS violation then the rules need to be updated and/or clarified and then ENFORCED!

I'm certain this is already in the forum rules. There's a section talking about encouragement

 

[Forveleth]

I'm certain this is already in the forum rules. There's a section talking about encouragement

But what qualifies as encouragement has never been formally defined and seems to have changed over the past few months. At first it was something like "use X method". Now it seems to be answering any questions or discussing anything, having anything to do with methods in general.

So if the latter was the case all along, it has never been enforced. And if it is the case now, that's fine. But I would like to see a formal, detailed post made from the mod team discussing the changes.

 

[Kayla]

The criterion is the OPs own stated attitude to suicide. We encourage a brother or sister in the position that they have reached, and if that position is the decision to kill themselves, we encourage them to follow their destiny as they have discovered it. This is fundamentally different from incitement.

We shouldn't encourage anyone to ctb. So people telling others "If I were you I'd take 20g of sn" is "encouraging them to follow their destiny" lmfaoo yeah I don't think so. That's straight up encouraging them to ctb.

 

[thefirstluminary]

We shouldn't encourage anyone to ctb. So people telling others "If I were you I'd take 20g of sn" is "encouraging them to follow their destiny" lmfaoo yeah I don't think so. That's straight up encouraging them to ctb.

what if someone is asking for direction though and want recommendation? is that considered 'instructing them on what to do'

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

I really agree with @Dante_ here. We already have TONS of resources, information, subjective experiences and personal reports of different methods. This is an information forum and a forum where one can discuss suicide openly without judgement, not a site that helps you tailor a personal guide for how you should CTB or help you get the specific substances needed. SaSu is also a website where people list the risks of each method, potentially dissuading people off from lifelong harm, disability or traumatizing others.

The same way a harm reduction site for substances work, they provide information, a space to talk about it. But they dont list off ways on for example "Where to get blacktar heroin and a step by step guide for everything you personally need for it", just general information.

I've been seeing it less and less, but i know a while back people were throwing around the whole "Omg you're a pro-lifer!!!!" thing. And I want to say: There is nothing wrong to try and dissuade a person from CTBing through suggestions of alternatives or that there is no shame in backing out. As long as you dont try to force them or go against their consent, a suggestion or a message like that is up to their own morals.

I also want to mention that there's alot of different nuances of suicidal people, not everyone is doom and gloom, not everyone shows their mental illness, not everyone posts about suicide all the time. To question another person's suicidality or mental unhealth, is just disrespectful (You aren't a healthcare professional, remember).

Anyways, I think we need to be stricter against people actively helping others to CTB, maybe adding/reworking rules?

 

[Dejected 55]

I'm not sure what the intent here is. What defines "encouragement" under these terms?

If someone says "you should kill yourself" then that feels like encouragement. That's easy.

But there are threads all over this forum describing various methods and how to do them most reliably/safely. Are those "encouragement"? If so, then the very site is violating its own rules by allowing this library of information. What about the Partners thread? The site/mods started that thread, and if helping people find partners to commit suicide with isn't "encouragement" then I don't know what is.

If people aren't supposed to answer any questions, even if a person posts a method wildly off-base... then most of the forum needs to be wiped.

I completely get not wanting to be seen as "encouraging" suicide. I've tried to talk people out of it even as I've wanted to be gone myself. But without very clear definitions of what is considered "encouragement" you're either going to see everyone is always breaking the rules OR everyone just shuts up and stops talking... either way, forum dead in a hurry.

 

[Kayla]

what if someone is asking for direction though and want recommendation? is that considered 'instructing them on what to do'

There are enough methods and guides, etc., on this site. People need to make up their own minds, not be told what to do exactly. "Take this amount of SN." "If I were you, I'd take 20g of SN."

 

[Dejected 55]

There are enough methods and guides, etc., on this site. People need to make up their own minds, not be told what to do exactly. "Take this amount of SN." "If I were you, I'd take 20g of SN."

Except... by that logic... all those methods and guides are in violation of the rules. The argument that we can't say those things because the information is already on the site means the site itself violates the rules.

Also... not for nothing, but... this site doesn't allow new users to use the search feature. So new users come here all the time and literally can't find the existing information and have no choice but to ask questions. And if you or I answer them, what's the difference between posting the information VS pointing them to the information already on the site? Either case, strictly speaking, provides "encouragement" if that's where the line is drawn.

I understand the OP sentiment here... I really do... but its a very nebulous not well-defined thing here we are being asked to do and those sorts of things usually don't land well on forums.

 

[Kayla]

Except... by that logic... all those methods and guides are in violation of the rules. The argument that we can't say those things because the information is already on the site means the site itself violates the rules.

Also... not for nothing, but... this site doesn't allow new users to use the search feature. So new users come here all the time and literally can't find the existing information and have no choice but to ask questions. And if you or I answer them, what's the difference between posting the information VS pointing them to the information already on the site? Either case, strictly speaking, provides "encouragement" if that's where the line is drawn.

I understand the OP sentiment here... I really do... but its a very nebulous not well-defined thing here we are being asked to do and those sorts of things usually don't land well on forums.

It's not like there are sticky threads pinned at the top of the suicide discussion. You've also missed my point. There are people in here saying "If I were you I'd take etc.." that's not answering questions, that's encouragement. Also, new accounts not being able to use the search feature doesn't mean we can tell them, "I think this method will be right for you."

 

[Dejected 55]

It's not like there are sticky threads pinned at the top of the suicide discussion. You've also missed my point. There are people in here saying "If I were you I'd take etc.." that's not answering questions, that's encouragement. Also, new accounts not being able to use the search feature doesn't mean we can tell them, "I think this method will be right for you."

You're missing some of the points many of us are making, though... The site and mods need to be clear in defining what constitutes "encouragement" vs giving information. Without that, the statement is useless. Open to interpretation means potentially we all are in violation already, including the site itself.

FYI, many of the sticky threads you mention do in fact tell people exactly how to do a protocol... that feels like "encouragement" to me. Telling someone to kill themselves is wrong... but if someone is going to kill themselves in a non-suggested manner and you don't tell them something different, how is that helpful? There is a "non-method" thread for just that reason... to steer people away from bad decisions. But, arguably that can be considered "encouragement" in a sense.

Bottom line for me... the very existence of this site is "encouragement" to a degree. Society tells us we shouldn't kill ourselves, we shouldn't want to kill ourselves, and in most of the world it is illegal to plan and do it. It is taboo to talk about in public and if you do it too much, police or people in white coats probably come to try and lock you up for your own safety. So, this site being here and not discouraging talk of suicide 100% means on some level by technical definition of words, the site "encourages" people to suicide.

Across the board? No. Lots of people here actively discourage people, and there is a Recovery section where a lot of people discuss that too.

The point here is not to actively encourage people to suicide... but when a mod throws out a generic non-specific directive, naturally people want to understand what that means. Without consistent guidance that the site itself conforms to, such generic vague statements don't really help. I know for me, in the absence of clear direction, I've had to stop talking about certain topics because the wind shifts day to day on what is allowed and you really can't fight city hall.

EDIT: Not for nothing, but from the main page... description of a couple of forums on here...



"A place where long time members can gather to share their personal experiences, seek support and advice, and find solace." So... sharing personal experiences with suicidal ideation or attempts, which would seem to imply method discussion, and seek support and "advice" very much seems to be allowed. But, couldn't "advice" be seen as "encouragement" ?



"ask questions you can't ask anywhere else." What does that mean? You can't ask how to kill yourself almost anywhere else... so that seems like it would be allowed. Vaguaries in the rules and site directions and descriptions themselves are problematic at best.

 

[Kayla]

The point here is not to actively encourage people to suicide...

Yet people are doing exactly that. The whole site does encourage CTB, yeah, but it's not in a personal manner; they aren't directly telling people what they should do in a sense of "oh, Kayla, you weigh this much, take that much sn" it's just generic. While users on here are doing exactly that, telling people exactly what they should do down to the T, basically planning other users' attempts for them. And actually OP said what the issue was its pretty obvious.

 

[Dejected 55]

Yet people are doing exactly that. The whole site does encourage CTB, yeah, but it's not in a personal manner; they aren't directly telling people what they should do in a sense of "oh, Kayla, you weigh this much, take that much sn" it's just generic. While users on here are doing exactly that, telling people exactly what they should do down to the T, basically planning other users' attempts for them. And actually OP said what the issue was its pretty obvious.

It really isn't "obvious" though. The OP talks of "blurred lines" which itself is a recognition of how vague the rules are. There's literally no difference in someone describing a step-by-step instructions VS pointing them to the information already on the forum which has that same information... but the implication is that one of these is allowed and the other is not.

Again, I don't encourage people to kill themselves. I've very often tried to talk people out of it... but when we talk of site rules and what is allowed, you really need a more clear definition of what is and isn't allowed and you have to be consistent about enforcing it. Otherwise the statement means nothing. That's all some of us are saying. Be clear, update the rules, make sure everyone knows the rules are updated, and enforce consistently.

Those stickies you referred to earlier that are acceptable give the detailed information you say other users are wrong to be giving. It's hard to square that circle. Either it's okay to have that information on the forum or it isn't... and if it is okay, then it has to be okay no matter who posts it.

 

[Kayla]

It really isn't "obvious" though. The OP talks of "blurred lines" which itself is a recognition of how vague the rules are. There's literally no difference in someone describing a step-by-step instructions VS pointing them to the information already on the forum which has that same information... but the implication is that one of these is allowed and the other is not.

Again, I don't encourage people to kill themselves. I've very often tried to talk people out of it... but when we talk of site rules and what is allowed, you really need a more clear definition of what is and isn't allowed and you have to be consistent about enforcing it. Otherwise the statement means nothing. That's all some of us are saying. Be clear, update the rules, make sure everyone knows the rules are updated, and enforce consistently.

Those stickies you referred to earlier that are acceptable give the detailed information you say other users are wrong to be giving. It's hard to square that circle. Either it's okay to have that information on the forum or it isn't... and if it is okay, then it has to be okay no matter who posts it.

Op makes it pretty clear, but okay!! :D Let's all live up to what news articles say!! Also, the amount of dangerous misinformation people are giving users about methods. At least the sticky threads are all true.

 

[thefirstluminary]

There are enough methods and guides, etc., on this site. People need to make up their own minds, not be told what to do exactly. "Take this amount of SN." "If I were you, I'd take 20g of SN."

Some people do read the megathreads and end up making a post asking anyways and taking suggestions and recommendation from people
I don't see anything wrong with that some users are scared, some wants to take others opinion maybe they tried that method and wanna know what the other users have experienced

 

[sanctionedusage]

i dont think theres a difference between answering "how do i kms" by telling someone the most foolproof methods in detail and instruction, and linking them to a megathread that says the exact same thing. ive always thought it was a funny custom. you can just tell someone to kts by linking the suicide resources compilation instead of writing the bannable 3 letters/2 words.

 

[JesiBel]

The most valuable thing about the forum is the information (through text, images, and videos) about the different methods. If OP asks a question, any user is free to answer.

What people should avoid are threads asking for "step-by-step" instructions or overly basic information. This suggests the user (OP) hasn't made even a minimal effort to do their own research.

Even users shouldn't recommend methods or try to convince others that "x" method is better than another. That's something each person should decide for themselves.

I always recommend that everyone use the search bar, and that they be patient and read all the information. It's not an easy or quick task, and it's also good to prevent any impulsive attempts, since you can't know everything or be free of doubts in a single day.

No one here is encouraging, forcing, or inviting anyone to make an attempt. This is an information site, where it's assumed that we are all adults with the judgment to know if we are truly ready or if it's the right time to consider/decide on "leaving this world."

If the different methods weren't discussed, I think the forum would lose its meaning. It would just be another place on the web, full of censorship and prohibitions. The information must be safe and reliable; even sharing different experiences is interesting and we can learn a lot.