Can suicide of a parent ever be justified?

[Bianka]

Basicaly the title
I think the moment you make that decision to bring a new life into this world you lost your right to die
I don't care about your misery or circumstances
What do you think?

 

[OrphicEnd]

I'm of the same opinion as long as the child is not completely independent, the consequences are enormous. He never asked to be born then the least of things is to give everything so that he grows healthily and succeeds.

 

[sserafim]

No offense to anyone on here, but I completely agree. I believe that parents have a moral obligation and duty to their children. After all, it was them who ripped their children from the ether and burdened them with existence and consciousness. They *chose* to have children. The child never asked or consented to be born, it was purely their parents' decision to have them.

 

[Life_and_Death]

considering adoption is an option and in some cases the best option, i dont see why this would be any different.

its better for the child to go someone that can handle it and isnt suicidal.
getting pregnant isnt always optional. and statistically id have to guess theres more accidents than meant to's

i dont see how "its the parents responsibility" means they have to. in certain cases, that just sounds like a good way for the child to end up suicidal as well, how is that good?

 

[kermudgeon]

If the kid is old enough or has someone else then I'm sorry but I don't feel the person should stick around just for the kid... I don't think anyone owes suffering to anyone else... it's for sure an awful situation, but yeah... no

 

[Forever Sleep]

I find it really difficult because I do feel awful for parents who feel suicidal. Still, from a personal perspective, my Mum died when I was 3 and that has had an awful impact on my life. Hers was natural causes too.

Still, it's hard to say really. Some people on here have grown up witnessing their parents self harm, use them as therapy. Even attempt or threaten CTB in front of them. That's bound to mess up your life too. So- what are we saying? They not only have to live but, they have to act as 'normal' as possible in front of their child? I guess that's the ideal but, maybe they can't sustain that.

I suppose a very controversial opinion is- should suicidal/ deeply depressed/ severley mentally ill people have children to begin with? I know in some cases, those issues develop afterwards but, not always.

I expect this sounds harsh but in all honesty, I can't get my head around it. It does seem like a primarily selfish act to me. Like the child will help make them feel better. But- I don't think that's the function of a new life- to act as an emotional crutch for the parent. I've known people who were desperately depressed that wanted children and I had to think- aren't you worried they'll end up the same way? Surely, it's hereditary. Plus- they're not good as masking. That child will surely witness them in that state. What will that do to them? Maybe they think being a parent would change them but, what if it doesn't? Still, to be honest, I'm an anti-natilist in general. I don't hate parents per se. I just think in general terms, it's such a risk for anyone to bring a child here.

I suppose I hope they'd make more effort to stay if they had children if I'm honest. Like others have said- it was their decision to do it. They brought that responsibility on themselves. No one else did.

I feel like I'm taking on the responsibility to not only carry on here but do try and do it responsibly too and support myself so that my suicide doesn't upset my Dad and I don't become a financial burden. Yet, it was half his decision to put all this responsibility on me! That I find the greatest irony really. Lots of people here are holding on for the sake of their parents. I'd hazard a guess we all spend much more time deliberating about killing ourselves and all its implications than people do when they decide to have children. I find that bizarre. It's our life we're wanting to control and yet, we have all these worries yet- bringing a new and independant life here, some people really don't seem to think through. I wonder how many hours our parents thought about the implications of bringing a child here compared to the amount of time we spend worrying what our suicides will do to them.

Funny that most people will agree that age 18 is a good age to legalise assisted suicide yet, you could have legally popped out a few new lives by that age! Weird...

 

[Bianka]

I don't think anyone owes suffering to anyone else...

Even considering it was their decision to bring a new life into existence?
@Life_and_Death
You're painting a picture where it's an accidental pregnancy, a decision that they want to keep it and then to go on and off themselfs and try to say it's fine and it's better fo the child?

 

[Shrike]

I don't believe it's possible to lose your right to die. For me, it's absolute. Keep in mind that effects wise, dying randomly for other reasons is the same. If parents are allowed to have children knowing they can randomly die in a car crash, get cancer, or that they could die fighting drafted in a war, that means allowances must be in place for that event. Those same allowances would work if they died for some other reason.

I believe society should be able to pick up slack in case of incapacitated or dead parents. I'm very aware that it absolutely fails to do so right now, but nonetheless that's where I place the responsibility among humans. The whole model of just two, sometimes one person having to do all the parenting is completely ridiculous to me. Especially given how much pressure society puts on people to create children. If it wants them that badly it should also be willing to take care of them.

My view of people is that they mostly sleepwalk through life. The average decision to have a child is not made with anywhere near the weight that the reality actually has, and if that weight was present in peoples' minds, virtually nobody would be having children. What that means is... a story for another thread. But if you listen to how people speak about it it's not that serious to them. People have children to try to mend a failing relationship, as a sense of purpose, because they're bored. People assume their child will be normal and healthy. Many, many children are accidents and even most pro-choice people are uncomfortable with abortion. The greater issue is how easy and trivial it is to create a child and how much that child is dependent on their parents.

In other words, philosophically, I don't really assign procreation directly to parents, I think procreation actually belongs (responsibility wise) to nature, and the parents are just a vehicle, often an unwilling one.

 

[SMmetalhead36]

I agree with this to a certain extent. I have children and a husband my youngest is 8 and one is 18 and the other 16. Each of my children love their lives and we made sure they got/get what they want. I'm going to make sure they're squared away before I ctb. I'm at a point now where I feel like I cannot hold on any longer. I've done the best I could to make the best out of a shitty life, but while in the process of running from sexual and emotional pain and abuse, my decisions in my teens impact me now and I'm overcome and overwhelmed with shame and deep deep deep regret.

 

[Bianka]

@Shrike
You are talking about responsibility yet use ignorance and social pressure to justify the "right to die".
I don't undersand how can you say the possibility of an accident or sickness is the same as the personal decision for someone to end their lifes
@SMmetalhead36
I'm sorry but it's still not justified. You're trying to make the best for them out of your decision but it doesn't alter the fact that you do chose to put yourself first. Unfortunate circumstances and regret doesn't take away the responsibility of ones actions and decisions

 

[Shrike]

You are talking about responsibility yet use ignorance and social pressure to justify the "right to die".

I don't perceive responsibility as automatic. It needs to be taken. That requires awareness and will. Most people lack that their whole entire lives. It'd be pointless to assign responsibility to them that they simply don't possess.

It's the same reason abstinence programs or judging teenage mothers doesn't do anything. The responsibility is misplaced.

Keep in mind I'm a child of neglectful parents. I did not come to this set of conclusions trivially.

I don't undersand how can you say the possibility of an accident or sickness is the same as the personal decision for someone to end their lifes

The effect is the same. "Daddy's flown across the ocean, leaving just a memory" might ring a bell. The argument is that their children will be affected. It's not the only scenario in which that'll be the case, but it's the scenario that gets the ire, and that shows it's not due to the effect on children. Note that when parents die in wars, it summons an anti-war sentiment rather than parental blame.

You have to understand that "parents bear the full responsibility for their children" is a social construct and some of us don't buy it.

 

[kermudgeon]

Even considering it was their decision to bring a new life into existence?

Yep. Living with a mentally ill parent can be worse than losing one who decides to ctb. And that parent knows their life and situation best, so they are better able to weigh the damages of either choice.

"Pro-choice except for this or that" isn't really pro-choice...

 

[Bianka]

@Shrike
I'm talking about justifying it. It's a moral and ethical question. No will or awareness, not taking responsibility hardly makes it objectively right. Just as listing worse or just as bad examples aren't adressing or disproving my point.
You weren't clear where did the conclusion that parents don't have responsibility for their kids come from
@kermudgeon
I don't think we can just say the parent knows better so it must be right. Then it should be a mutual decision. It often comes up that the parent made the decision alone to create new life, now you say it's also perfectly okay to make another life altering decision on their own. Pro choice doesn't mean do whatever the fuck you want (although you can in this particular situation I'm arguing that it's wrong and unjustifiable)

 

[Shrike]

EDIT: there was previously a post I was responding to but it seems gone now...

There's no objective moral system for questions like this. In the moral system we all escape here from, suicide is always immoral. Some of us develop our own moral systems.

In your system, as far as I can see, responsibility is assigned in binary form, and cause and effect are simple, humans have total free will, and there are no significant background influences. Your point will remain true in your system.

My argument is not that your point is wrong in your system. My argument is against the whole system of assigning responsibility in such binary terms, assuming that, while our systems are different, the overall goal is the same: the reduction of suffering.

My conclusion about parents and responsibility is deeply philosophical and also rooted in history and probably offtopic if I go too far. I'd just point out that reproduction is the default biological process and that both birth control and abortions came after.

 

[NekiLik]

I disagree with the notion that just because you have a child you should be forbidden to CTB. Parents are humans too, and maybe the child should have no parent at all than having a suicidal, incompetent, burdening, and/or abusive parent.

 

[SMmetalhead36]

@Shrike
You are talking about responsibility yet use ignorance and social pressure to justify the "right to die".
I don't undersand how can you say the possibility of an accident or sickness is the same as the personal decision for someone to end their lifes
@SMmetalhead36
I'm sorry but it's still not justified. You're trying to make the best for them out of your decision but it doesn't alter the fact that you do chose to put yourself first. Unfortunate circumstances and regret doesn't take away the responsibility of ones actions and decisions

As stated, I agree to some extent, though I do not neglect or abuse my children, I believe they deserve so much better than me.

 

[Silent Raindrops]

When I was looking at some of the threads from several years ago, the same type of conversation was brought up. It got tense, but a few people made good arguments in either direction.

Having children is immoral.

I think having children is immoral, especially when you have depression, and other severe problems. Then it is especially immoral, because there is the risk to pass the genes on. What do you think? I think if you want to desperately have children, which is still immoral, because it continues the...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[Proteus]

"Pro-choice except for this or that" isn't really pro-choice...

I disagree. Every right needs responsibilities to ensure they can happen. Having children takes a lot of responsibility and hardly not a choice, either. I guess there are exceptions.

I don't perceive responsibility as automatic. It needs to be taken. That requires awareness and will. Most people lack that their whole entire lives. It'd be pointless to assign responsibility to them that they simply don't possess.

I don't really understand it. It's a decision mostly took in adulthood and one was exposed to the outcomes all their life. To be fair, I think this idea that most people lack volition or understanding completely wrong and would arise huge consequences in psychology if it was the case.

I disagree with the notion that just because you have a child you should be forbidden to CTB. Parents are humans too, and maybe the child should have no parent at all than having a suicidal, incompetent, burdening, and/or abusive parent.

I believe they deserve so much better than me.

Arguments completely aside. I think most depressed people underrate their role with their loved ones. I don't know your relationship but you may be more important than you think, specially because children subconsciously love their elders so much. This not only goes for parents BTW. This can happen to everyone.

 

[Scythe]

If at any point during the preganancy the parent no longer wanted a child, (exception to last half a month, too late to change your decision imo) their decision to ctb is justified. It's rather normal to get cold feet or realize later that maybe this isn't the best. I believe such is human nature. Then if the child cannot be aborted, the parent can ctb because it is not their fault that the child is born. It is society's fault for not allowing an abortion.
If the parent is causing harm to the child by being alive and their parent child relation is not that great I think they can also ctb, because either way the child will be harmed. Depending on the level of abuse perhaps it's better if the parent is dead.
I believe if there is another person able to support the kid on their own, after the child becomes 13 or older, they can ctb.
Then if there's no one else to support the kid, and the kid isn't indepedent after 18 I think the parent should wait until their child is 20. If the kid is indepedent at 18, I think the parent should be allowed to die.

 

[kermudgeon]

@kermudgeon
I don't think we can just say the parent knows better so it must be right. Then it should be a mutual decision. It often comes up that the parent made the decision alone to create new life, now you say it's also perfectly okay to make another life altering decision on their own. Pro choice doesn't mean do whatever the fuck you want (although you can in this particular situation I'm arguing that it's wrong and unjustifiable)

Well you're right, pro-choice doesn't mean do whatever the fuck you want lol

I'm sorry to have upset you so much- I think the two of us might be at an impass- you argue it's unjustifiable and I argue it is. That's okay. I still just don't think we owe suffering to anyone else, including our kids or other family members. It's okay if you think I'm wrong :)

 

[Heins732]

No, no excuses for the responsibility of being father/mother. If you cant control yourself or you know there is something wrong with you, dont spread these problems with a family.
Maybe when the children grow to adults but even then its messed up.

 

[f1lth]

my father killed himself when i was seven, i found him, it was and is one of the worst things to ever happen to me. I dont blame him, i think it was inevitable that he was going to do it. I dont think he could wait, i dont think he was completely in control, he was very ill. Im honestly not sure how to answer this, as its very complicated. Ive forgiven him, but it will never leave me. I miss him every day.

 

[SexyIncél]

Under present society, it's a systematic failure, not just an individual parent's failure. Seems odd to put the blame on the weakest lifeforms — ones with internal forces to stop living

In the 21st century, it's trivial for the species to ensure a decent life for children without parents. We just don't wanna

Anyway, if you can ensure the child's well taken care of, then sure get the fuck outta here

 

[Seiko]

This is an ongoing conflict in my head. On a social policy level, while I support voluntary MAiD and PAS/PAD programs and the right to die to be upheld as a civil liberty so long as one is in a rational, non-impulsive state with other "good faith" guidelines like long-term waiting periods and a mandatory attempt at treatment — I also believe it becomes much more complicated if you have dependents and those requiring your immediate care. In this case, I think an actionable plan that ensures a child isn't left without a caretaker could be possible. Still, the situation is tricky with co-parenting marriages, custody implications, subjecting the child to foster care, etc. I'm not quite sure, but while I do believe that no one should be detained by life regardless of one's station in life, there are things to consider if you have dependent children or are an immediate caretaker of persons with disabilities or older adults.

 

[Blarney]

What if the parent killed their child in a manner that is painless and where the child has no idea that they are dying/will die.
If the parent was to do so, how would you feel about their suicide?

 

[restless.dreams]

It sounds like an impossible situation to me. The kids will be impacted no matter what. I think the parent has some responsibility to try to hold on until their kids are grown up and independent, but I know that's not always possible. At the very least, they should make arrangements for a trusted person to take legal guardianship. It's a terrible burden on both sides, that's why I will never have kids.

What if the parent killed their child in a manner that is painless and where the child has no idea that they are dying/will die.
If the parent was to do so, how would you feel about their suicide?

That would be indefensible.

 

[Final_Choice]

I feel like by default it's wrong for a parent to do so if they have a child, it's their responsibility after all. I do think it's fine after the child has become an independent adult, obviously it would still hurt the child but at least the parent no longer has dependents. Also, if the parent can make sure that their death does not affect the child too much, like maybe leaving it with a grandparent or something, then maybe. Though I feel like even that has lots of flaws. Point is that I believe that it is not right for a parent to do so because it would cause direct and immense harm onto the child, under normal circumstances I feel like the suicide of someone does harm those around them but the suicide of a parent would cause far more harm to a dependent child than that, possibly causing more harm to the child than the pain that would be relieved by the parent committing suicide.

 

[Callie Arcale]

I strongly disagree.

If your suffering is too great for you to bear, and if every day is hell, you should be allowed to put yourself out of your misery, children or no children.

Suicide is beyond good and evil and the moral precepts that govern our lives. Life being meaningless, so it suicide. So do whatever you can to get out, even if you made the mistake of condemning someone else to suffering by procreating.

 

[Proteus]

I strongly disagree.

If your suffering is too great for you to bear, and if every day is hell, you should be allowed to put yourself out of your misery, children or no children.

Suicide is beyond good and evil and the moral precepts that govern our lives. Life being meaningless, so it suicide. So do whatever you can to get out, even if you made the mistake of condemning someone else to suffering by procreating.

I don't understand it. Why is suicide beyond morality? What meaninglessness has to do with morals? Why is the consented suffering of the parent bigger than that of the child, who will suffer more, and for longer?

The brain of a child is the most vulnerable thing ever, and, by far, the worst stage to cope with any pain. Here is the experience of an user who lost her mother at the age of 3.

 

[Callie Arcale]

I don't understand it. Why is suicide beyond morality? What meaninglessness has to do with morals? Why is the consented suffering of the parent bigger than that of the child, who will suffer more, and for longer?

The brain of a child is the most vulnerable thing ever, and, by far, the worst stage to cope with any pain. Here is the experience of an user who lost her mother at the age of 3.

I guess you'd have to really see life for what it is - beyond all the noise and make-belief - to truly understand this point of view. All our actions are futile. We fancy ourselves in control. We think we have agency. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's all a game of dice.

Anecdotal reports of this or that don't amount to much. For each one of your stories I can find an example that proves the opposite.