Belief in God

[wildflowers1996]

I feel really confused about what I believe
There seem to be many reasons not to believe in a loving God (no.1 for me being suffering existing) and I also don't feel like there's enough evidence. I think in general I'm quite a logical, skeptical person

But there's still a part of me that does - I'm guessing it's either wishful thinking, fear, or both?
I think people's "spiritual experiences" can be explained by psychology, but at the same time I can't help thinking it's strange how so many feel the *need* for something spiritual. Like it's hard to see something really beautiful or listen to some music without feeling like it's spiritual?

And I know what a "God of the gaps" argument is.
But there is still so much we can't explain
There is either infinite regress, no cause of the universe, or an uncaused cause
I'm no scientist but infinite regress doesn't make sense to me
So I feel there has to be no cause or an uncaused cause - something outside of time
But that wouldn't necessarily be God

The other thing I think about is consciousness.
We can talk about brain activity, but I don't think we can reduce consciousness to brain activity
If you're blind and learn about light waves, you still don't know what it's like to see yellow - you have the knowledge but not the experience
So - it seems consciousness is beyond the physical
I know unconscious complexity could cause consciousness
But to me it makes more sense that consciousness is caused by something else conscious. That something non physical causes another non physical thing - God?

I feel like I'm just not clever enough to weigh up the arguments for / against God properly but I wonder what other people' thoughts are

Because knowing if God exists is a major thing to consider before I ctb

 

[hermestrimegistus]

My recommendation: look into gnosticism. A rabbit hole worth traveling down. Even if its just hypothetical. Its an interesting perspective. Ive had some personal experiences that make me consider a higher being but I understand if its not for everyone

 

[flower_g1rl]

i made up my own god, i have fun. you can, as well. none of them are from whispers up above, its all mental. if others did it, why cant you? it helps, well, at least it helps me.

 

[SovietSuicide]

I've been a 'deep thinker' since I was young reading philosophy etc and trying to figure out life.

I don't like agnosticism in the sense that "oh I tried to think about God but it was too difficult so I gave up" but I would have to say I'm agnostic in the sense that "I've exhausted all lines of inquiry and concluded objective truth is impossible to determine".

 

[mind3de]

My recommendation: look into gnosticism. A rabbit hole worth traveling down. Even if its just hypothetical. Its an interesting perspective. Ive had some personal experiences that make me consider a higher being but I understand if its not for everyone

Can you recommend books / texts about gnosticism? Where to start?

 

[AerialBoundaries]

Don't worry about it, there's no logical reason to believe in a diety. The only thing that's real, is you.

 

[Ε. Η. R.]

Earlier, before the absolute hell in my life, I didn't have a bad attitude towards christianity. And at one time I treated him very well. Then I changed my mind.
god does not need good or kind people. he does not need those who decided to go over to the side of christianity. he patronizes scums, whores, the most cruel, worst nonhumans.
I saw how the worst "people" escaped from punishment, engaged in pedophilia, did the most terrible things, tortured people. These nonhumans got away with everything.
While god puts a spoke in the wheels of good people. Sends them the worst "people". he interferes with punishing nonhumans.
Is this really god? I don't think so. demon - most likely. Which feeds on the suffering and torment of people. But definitely not god. There is no god in this world.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

My recommendation: look into gnosticism. A rabbit hole worth traveling down. Even if its just hypothetical. Its an interesting perspective. Ive had some personal experiences that make me consider a higher being but I understand if its not for everyone

Gnosticism is the only thing that makes sense to me when you consider the evil nature of this realm of suffering and the flesh - prison body.

Earlier, before the absolute hell in my life, I didn't have a bad attitude towards christianity. And at one time I treated him very well. Then I changed my mind.
god does not need good or kind people. he does not need those who decided to go over to the side of christianity. he patronizes scums, whores, the most cruel, worst nonhumans.
I saw how the worst "people" escaped from punishment, engaged in pedophilia, did the most terrible things, tortured people. These nonhumans got away with everything.
While god puts a spoke in the wheels of good people. Sends them the worst "people". he interferes with punishing nonhumans.
Is this really god? I don't think so. demon - most likely. Which feeds on the suffering and torment of people. But definitely not god. There is no god in this world.

Earlier, before the absolute hell in my life, I didn't have a bad attitude towards christianity. And at one time I treated him very well. Then I changed my mind.
god does not need good or kind people. he does not need those who decided to go over to the side of christianity. he patronizes scums, whores, the most cruel, worst nonhumans.
I saw how the worst "people" escaped from punishment, engaged in pedophilia, did the most terrible things, tortured people. These nonhumans got away with everything.
While god puts a spoke in the wheels of good people. Sends them the worst "people". he interferes with punishing nonhumans.
Is this really god? I don't think so. demon - most likely. Which feeds on the suffering and torment of people. But definitely not god. There is no god in this world.

I Honestly wonder if Satan is the good guy and God is the evil one .
I think the real God is Yaldabaoth, the creator of this world of suffering according to Gnosticism.

Can you recommend books / texts about gnosticism? Where to start?

Here dude. Free books on gnosticism.

 

[steppenwolf]

I feel really confused about what I believe
There seem to be many reasons not to believe in a loving God (no.1 for me being suffering existing) and I also don't feel like there's enough evidence. I think in general I'm quite a logical, skeptical person

But there's still a part of me that does - I'm guessing it's either wishful thinking, fear, or both?
I think people's "spiritual experiences" can be explained by psychology, but at the same time I can't help thinking it's strange how so many feel the *need* for something spiritual. Like it's hard to see something really beautiful or listen to some music without feeling like it's spiritual?

And I know what a "God of the gaps" argument is.
But there is still so much we can't explain
There is either infinite regress, no cause of the universe, or an uncaused cause
I'm no scientist but infinite regress doesn't make sense to me
So I feel there has to be no cause or an uncaused cause - something outside of time
But that wouldn't necessarily be God

The other thing I think about is consciousness.
We can talk about brain activity, but I don't think we can reduce consciousness to brain activity
If you're blind and learn about light waves, you still don't know what it's like to see yellow - you have the knowledge but not the experience
So - it seems consciousness is beyond the physical
I know unconscious complexity could cause consciousness
But to me it makes more sense that consciousness is caused by something else conscious. That something non physical causes another non physical thing - God?

I feel like I'm just not clever enough to weigh up the arguments for / against God properly but I wonder what other people' thoughts are

Because knowing if God exists is a major thing to consider before I ctb

My thought is that your development - like that of too many others - has been deliberately crippled by indoctrination with the Abrahamic patriarchal Deity.

 

[wildflowers1996]

My thought is that your development - like that of too many others - has been deliberately crippled by indoctrination with the Abrahamic patriarchal Deity.

you may well be right about that- but my post wasn't arguing for the Abrahamic God necessarily, but just suggesting the possibility of existence of *a* God

 

[Darkover]

everything that exist came into existence from nothing from simple beginning comes complex things if you prescribe to the idea that god created everything that doesn't explain what created god the obvious conclusion to be drawn is that something did come into existance from nothing which means there is no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pointless indifference

 

[wildflowers1996]

everything that exist came into existence from nothing from simple beginning comes complex things if you prescribe to the idea that god created everything that doesn't explain what created god the obvious conclusion to be drawn is that something did come into existance from nothing which means there is no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pointless indifference

I think God can be the "uncaused cause" - God doesn't need to be created if God is eternal, and exists outside of space/time

 

[Dying Knight]

The other thing I think about is consciousness.
We can talk about brain activity, but I don't think we can reduce consciousness to brain activity

I think of consciousness as a special self-reflective form of transition between different memory states of a brain. A memory state of a brain is the information stored in the brain's neurons at a particular moment of time. The reflective part of the consciousness is determined by the ability to compare different past states of the memory and produce new present state based on the delta between past states and some immediate input of new information during brain operation. Consciousness probably cannot exist without a physical/material processor that meets some conditions.

The memories about your past determine understanding of who you are. When you fall asleep, your consciousness temporarily ceases to exist, and when you wake up, you can recall your existence before sleeping. If we imagine a memory-erasing sleep which would cause total amnesia, then we could tell that the person before the sleep and the person after it are actually two different persons tied to the same material body.

I know unconscious complexity could cause consciousness
But to me it makes more sense that consciousness is caused by something else conscious. That something non physical causes another non physical thing - God?

It's easy to notice that consciousness depends on the physical conditions in the material processor (brain) a lot. Antidepressants, sleeping aids, hallucinogenic substances, asphyxia, electro-stimulation may have big influence on how consciousness works. Such dependencies suggest that consciousness is tied to the material brain and probably cannot exist without it or an equivalent physical processor.

I feel like I'm just not clever enough to weigh up the arguments for / against God properly but I wonder what other people' thoughts are

You should ask yourself what god is in the first place. I simply don't see any point in considering such a notion as "god", because we don't know anything about an object it could reasonably designate. If we don't know anything about some object, we can't make any valuable judgements regarding its influence on ourselves.

 

[zeek]

there is only one God
if you just believe in him, you will have a chance at salvation.
not Jesus, but God alone, without partner

 

[Dying Knight]

there is only one God

Why only one? Why not zero gods or million gods?

if you just believe in him, you will have a chance at salvation.

Salvation from what? The god or gods may be sadistic, they may dislike believers and punish them more than atheists.

 

[zeek]

Why only one?

because that is what I know and believe

Salvation from what?

sin

I know of God
He knows of me
He has made me, to return to Him. and although i will have to return through sin, return to Him i will
my suicide may be sin, but i no longer wish to continue with my jihad. i wish to return to Him

In the end,
It is between God and i
my salvation is only through Him

 

[tiger b]

I think a lot of people believe in very similar things, and semantics can really create problems. Overcomplicating things, too, really creates division.

i made up my own god, i have fun. you can, as well. none of them are from whispers up above, its all mental. if others did it, why cant you? it helps, well, at least it helps me.

I love this. Who knows if actually you have recognised The One True God? (TM) Nobody can conclusively prove otherwise. My God versus your God, round one, fight!

Who says you can't use this in a constructive way, and be closer to Transcendence/oneness than anyone else?

I think, personally, giving up needing to be right about beliefs and religions opens the door to many things.

My personal thoughts, and I apologise if I sound like I'm preaching.

Salvation is inevitable and unconditional to a perfect God who cannot create what is not perfect. What is perfect cannot sin. It's a question of if we are moving closer or further away from him, it's not a case of us earning our salvation or dictating its terms. It's only a question of how long it takes...this I believe.

God did not invent religion. He did not write the Bible. That's not saying it isn't useful (in parts). God did not invent sin. God did not invent Satan.

God did not create this world. How could he? If someone believes that then the rest will follow in time.

Convincing anyone isn't necessary.

The struggle is existing in a meaningless world and placing meaning on things just to 'pass the time'. I find simplicity hard to cope with, as my ego holds me to ransom.

I believe everyone is already saved as it's inevitable if there is a loving, simple God outside of this cardboard cutout world. As Stephen King said, you may paint your wagon whatever colour you like.

 

[steppenwolf]

you may well be right about that- but my post wasn't arguing for the Abrahamic God necessarily, but just suggesting the possibility of existence of *a* God

But the God of Abraham is the only source where you could have got the idea of the existence of a God from, and all of your thinking is plainly founded upon and constrained by it. But you are apparently unable to define the concept and thereby measure it against reality and identify its obvious fallacy. Presumably because you were indoctrinated with it in childhood, by some adult or other standing over you with a book and an unquestionable implicit threat of adult violence.

I believe that you're saying that there may exist an invisible, all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing disembodied masculine entity, who uses everybody as His agents, who holds that women are a secondary form of life to men to be possessed and used by men as material objects, who dispenses material wishes and promises eternal paradise upon death for those who believe in Him hard enough, the ultimate proof of which belief is to kill for Him, and who punishes and condemns forever those who don't believe in Him, so that basically only the super-rich and powerful who can get away with mass murder can have intimate commerce with Him, and everyone else will do well to follow their example.

So if that isn't what you're saying, what are you saying exactly?

You should ask yourself what god is in the first place. I simply don't see any point in considering such a notion as "god", because we don't know anything about an object it could reasonably designate. If we don't know anything about some object, we can't make any valuable judgements regarding its influence on ourselves.

 

[Dying Knight]

because that is what I know and believe

When I was 5, I "knew" that Santa exists.

sin

If the god is responsible for existence of everything else, he's responsible for existence of sin. It's just ridiculous to create humans as sinners and then punish them for sins that come out of their nature. This may be compared to a stupid programmer who wrote a glitchy computer program and then put guilt on the program that behaves wrongly instead of blaming himself for his own fault at writing a good program.

 

[tiger b]

How could a loving, perfect God create sin? How could he set us up to fail?

How can you get a cat and punish it for meowing?

 

[wildflowers1996]

But the God of Abraham is the only source where you could have got the idea of the existence of a God from, and all of your thinking is plainly founded upon and constrained by it. But you are apparently unable to define the concept and thereby measure it against reality and identify its obvious fallacy. Presumably because you were indoctrinated with it in childhood, by some adult or other standing over you with a book and an unquestionable implicit threat of adult violence.

I believe that you're saying that there may exist an invisible, all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing disembodied masculine entity, who uses everybody as His agents, who holds that women are a secondary form of life to men to be possessed and used by men as material objects, who dispenses material wishes and promises eternal paradise upon death for those who believe in Him hard enough, the ultimate proof of which belief is to kill for Him, and who punishes and condemns forever those who don't believe in Him, so that basically only the super-rich and powerful who can get away with mass murder can have intimate commerce with Him, and everyone else will do well to follow their example.

So if that isn't what you're saying, what are you saying exactly?

Currently I'm just saying I think there could be a conscious creator - or creators - nothing more than that

How could a loving, perfect God create sin? How could he set us up to fail?

How can you get a cat and punish it for meowing?

I'm not saying I believe this, but I think some people would respond that sin is the absence of God, so God didn't create it
Why He allows it though, is another question (one which I can't find an answer to that makes sense to me)

 

[zeek]

When I was 5, I "knew" that Santa exists.

If the god is responsible for existence of everything else, he's responsible for existence of sin. It's just ridiculous to create humans as sinners and then punish them for sins that come out of their nature. This may be compared to a stupid programmer who wrote a glitchy computer program and then put guilt on the program that behaves wrongly instead of blaming himself for his own fault at writing a good program.

I have heard God.
It is not the know you think of, just belief in the unseen
I talk to God
and he responds.
just try to find Him,
i know if i have, you can too.

God has given us free will.
You wish to compare his creation to a computer program? compare it to His creation, the angels.
They worship God in perfection, and are unable to sin.
It is not that God wants us to never sin. I believe he loves the one who sins and repents, more than the one who never sins.
I believe God wants us to turn to him when we inevitably do sin, and ask for his forgiveness.

How could a loving, perfect God create sin? How could he set us up to fail?

How can you get a cat and punish it for meowing?

When a cat takes a shit on your floor, you do not tell it to stop shitting.
You train it to shit properly, by using a litterbox.

God has asked us not to sin, but He knows we will, as it is our nature
so He has allowed us to repent. what if He did not allow us to atone for our sins? i think that would be more like "getting a cat and punishing it for meowing"
He has given us a "litterbox" to use, it is up to you to use it.

 

[tiger b]

I think you misuse that analogy somewhat. Has the cat sinned by shitting on the floor?

God has not asked us not to sin. There is only one thing God patiently asks for, but it is certainly no demand. Any 'sin' is the misperception that sin can exist in a virtual world of our creation, designed to obfuscate, and we punish ourselves through our own misperceptions.

What is this litterbox that you speak of?

God has not given us a litterbox. It is unnecessary. Unless you are saying that God is cruel or he created us with the capacity to sin in reality, and what would be the purpose of it.

Repenting ultimately is an illusion because there is nothing to repent for, as only God Is.

If you do believe in a cruel God who sets life as some sort of test or graduation, then I guess I can see maybe - maybe - why you'd believe what you believe. Which, of course, you are entitled to. If you believe in a perfect, loving God then personally I (struggle to) see logic nor sense behind what you are saying. But maybe that is my own failure.

'I talk to God
and he responds'

God talked to me, and I (grudgingly) responded. I don't know why he bothered sometimes - I really am dense. God must be loving or he'd just leave someone like me alone in their fake plastic world.

I respect your beliefs and I wish you well.

 

[Dying Knight]

God has given us free will.

Free will is a fiction. I clearly understand that my thoughts and decisions have some certain cause, they are just the inevitable consequence of the knowledge my brain accumulated during my life and physical properties of the brain. I didn't choose how my brain works, and I didn't choose the environment which gives me the knowledge about the reality. My choice doesn't appear out of nowhere; whenever I try to choose something, I already have to rely on some previously obtained knowledge and hope that my brain will be able to produce a good decision. These conditions are initially pre-determined without my will or consent. If I got bad knowledge or bad brain, my will may become bad as the consequence of having bad knowledge or bad brain, and this bad will may produce sins.

 

[tiger b]

I'm not saying I believe this, but I think some people would respond that sin is the absence of God, so God didn't create it
Why He allows it though, is another question (one which I can't find an answer to that makes sense to me)

I can see the first point - but there can be no absence of God. There can be a denial of God, confusion over his substance (and I include myself in that ( but given the illusion of space and time, that is just temporary.

The last question is a good one, and I think it's connected with what I've just said. God is patient as he will last longer than our delusions.

 

[wildflowers1996]

I can see the first point - but there can be no absence of God. There can be a denial of God, confusion over his substance (and I include myself in that ( but given the illusion of space and time, that is just temporary.

The last question is a good one, and I think it's connected with what I've just said. God is patient as he will last longer than our delusions.

I'm not sure I understand why there can't be an absence of God? why does God have to be everywhere/everything?

 

[tiger b]

Another great question! You don't fuck about, do you.

God Is.

By implication, that means everything else...isn't.

Including our egos. Especially our egos.

Distance, yes. Absence, no.

You definitely don't have to believe this (cough it's truecough hahaha). If God isn't perfect, if God is cruel then yes, it could be denied.

Rejoice.

 

[Darkover]

I think God can be the "uncaused cause" - God doesn't need to be created if God is eternal, and exists outside of space/time

nothing can exist without taken up some space also without time there is no future present or past

 

[cryvinglightning]

i was raised catholic. i never really found a lot of "solace" in god. the way people in my church would talk about religion made it feel like an obligation rather than something you enthusiastically take part in.
i am agnostic right now, or at least i consider myself to be one. if the god from the bible exists, though, he would be merciful enough to save the souls of the people who lost their faith. a lot of christians are fixated on believing on a god that hates them and all of his creations. there's no point in putting your faith in something so cruel.

 

[tiger b]

nothing can exist without taken up some space also without time there is no future present or past

According to who? Just interested.

I'm just thinking about what you said, so did my thought exist or not, as it's not taking up any space?

I agree with you on time, but I'm not sure what point you're making about it.