Discussion Being Well Thought-Of vs. Actually Being Worthy Of It

[GoodPersonEffed]

Most people, I think, want others to think well of them.

However, it seems that many -- most?-- people would rather look good than to actually be good, to have without having to earn.

Even though it's an ancient human trait, tied in, perhaps, with the primate trait of saving face, I have a hard time understanding that. If someone wants others to think well of them, but it's not based on the truth, then what do they get out of it?

Camouflage?

Acceptance?

Admiration?

But what if it gets revealed that they are not what they claim? And then they lose the acceptance? And are despised?

Do they spend their lives in fear of others discovering the truth and rejecting them? Do they spend extraordinary effort keeping up a facade? Are they so awful that they would be rejected for who they are of it were discovered? Do they do awful things behind closed doors? Wouldn't it be less effort to just be oneself, and if what they do behind closed doors is so bad, then to work on it lest the doors come open and they get revealed? How do they manage knowing they are admired for what they are not? Does it bring safety? To me, it seems to bring stress, because it could all come crashing down. Or is there a high in that challenge and fear?

I'm struggling to understand this because I came from a family that is supposedly all about honesty and trustworthiness and integrity and good Midwestern Christian values, yet I was beaten behind closed doors, my supposedly super-honest parents lied to the world that we had a relationship years after shunning me, and I am the only one in the family who actually walks my talk and strives to live in integrity:

• Choosing courage over comfort
• Choosing what's right over what's fun, fast, or easy
• Practicing values, not just professing them

I turned out exactly how they professed that they wanted, but I did it in my own way, not by being submissive to them but for boldly pursuing it exactly as who I was, and I think they hate me for it. I think they feel shamed by my honesty, openness, and integrity (and perceptiveness and intelligence), and yet they double down on not owning what they did behind closed doors, or dealing with their own propensity for camouflage and looking rather than being good.

I'm also struggling because the world is shit. There are so many "winners" and people in incredibly powerful positions who have little to no integrity. I see so little evidence of it in the world, and I ache because the world needs it so much, at every level. I ache because there are many people who would choose integrity, but are subjected to abusive power such that they have to choose between integrity and survival, for themselves and perhaps their families. There is so much abusive power and dominance in the world, and it seems like they win. This breaks my heart, to be a good person and to have no power to help, heal, or make change. It seems the good makes a difference here and there, makes life more livable, brings soothing, brings much-needed moments of decency and safety and even love and healing amidst all the suffering and torture and soul-crushing dominance. But it's not going to win. It won't be dominant, maybe because dominance is against the very nature of such good, which honors and values boundaries and autonomy and freedom, which uplifts rather than oppresses. The dominant insists on fighting, on war. It says, "Destroy me. It is the only way. And then you will be just like me. So even then, I win." Dominant power says, "I have power, and I want more power." Good power says, "I have power over myself, and I want everyone else to have power over themselves."

I got a bit off track there. Those last two paragraphs surprised me. I was crying as I wrote, as I felt the concurrent goodness and helplessness. I feel defeated. I cannot pour the good, integrity, and love where they do not want to be received -- my family, social groups, leaders, governments, the world.


Anyhow, I wanted to ask:

What about you? I want to listen, and I promise I won't judge or condemn.

If you're one who seeks the camouflage, acceptance and admiration, but aren't who or what you project, why? How does that serve you? What would happen if you were revealed? Do you think you could benefit and grow from being revealed? Do you think those who are vulnerable to you, such as dependents and loved ones, would get more value and safety from the real you if you could no longer hide? Would you truly be in danger if your vulnerability and actual self were revealed? There are so many things I could ask you! Do you feel powerful? Do you feel like you win? Do you feel good about it?

If you ever did lose your camouflage, acceptance and admiration, how did that change your life and change you?

If you're like me, and accept yourself for all your weirdness and difference, and live the same both publicly and privately, do you find it brings benefit or not? Do you get enough reward for walking the harder road of integrity and self-acceptance? Do you feel lonely because it seems so few others walk that path?

Are you some combination of the above? How does that feel? Are you comfortable? What are the challenges, and what are the benefits?

 

[Pryras]

I see examples of this nearly everywhere. From preformitive activism, to abusive parents and just a complete disconnect in actions and words.

Seeing my abuser get loud on social media over respecting women...it just feels disingenuous and preformitive. To seeing my own mother enforce honesty despite habitually lying herself and beating me behind close doors. She has told me herself that her reputation is important and that she doesn't want me to embarrass her. That says enough for me.

It's frustrating but I caught myself looking for acceptance when I was in my early years of secondary school. I wasn't preaching anything that I didn't personally believe in, but I noticed how much I tried to "Fit in" with other girls. Minor things like changing the way I dressed to validating others more than I would have done naturally. Over complimenting and pleasing became a problem as well. It was a mix between seeking acceptance and being admired / well-liked.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I see examples of this nearly everywhere. From preformitive activism, to abusive parents and just a complete disconnect in actions and words.

Then why do we trust so much, when this is everywhere? Why do we trust our governments, or people in our social groups, or a bunch of strangers on a forum claiming to kill themselves, when we know that no one is as they claim to be, and most of us ourselves generally hide behind armor and facades?

Is it because we are concurrently disconnected from our own selves and our awareness?

If yes, how does that happen? Is culture/the world just one big gaslight, starting with our families, and spreading out into larger and larger social groups, which feed back into the smaller social groups, and hit the individual from every angle -- governments and politicians, mass media, education, religion, families? Really, as much as we dislike what our parents and other abusers did, can we fully blame them if they themselves are unaware? (Please don't think I'm being an apologist; I'm not. It's just that blame discharges discomfort and pain and uncertainty, but it seems to me uncertain that much of anyone is truly aware of their motives and actions, even as they're protecting themselves and lying to themselves. I think it runs very deep. And it's uncomfortable to not know where to lay the blame if they are not truly responsible for their actions because they don't have the capacity to be. If that's the case, and this is so rampant, then almost no one is safe for anyone.)

I would think practicing Buddhists would be the least likely to be unaware, and to be the most honest, especially with the guidance of the Five Precepts, yet there is just as much corruption and abuse in Buddhism as there is in Catholicism. Ffs, the Dalai Lama, who is supposed to own nothing and is strictly limited to what he is allowed to wear, owns and wears watches -- 15 watches, some of them Rolexes, all presumably gifts, but still, he's not supposed to wear such things or own anything. And abuse -- he himself was physically and emotionally abused by his teachers when he was the young Dalai Lama receiving his training, and abuse runs rampant in sanghas, because one who brings doubt upon or discord to the sangha is threatened with rebirth into a hell realm, and teacher abuse is excused as giving a benevolent gift of fulfilling karma for the abused. The Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet was funded by the CIA, supposedly without his knowing until after the fact. Yet he is so loved and revered because he has a funny laugh and is charismatic, and goes on about his religion being happiness, but it seems to me like hype. (Personally, I bet he's one mean and shrewd motherfucker.)

Anyhow, your comment made me think. I hope you don't feel I was questioning you or going on the attack. I'm just deeply troubled. I want the world to be better than it is when there is so much potential. I want humans and society to have evolved further than this. I want all my hard work of self-evolution to pay off, but I am powerless to do anything. Sure, I'm more aware and stand taller, I respect myself deeply and I've earned my respect, but I can't effect any real change. It was worth climbing the mountain and reaching the summit, but it think for me there are no more summits. I think it's social engineering bullshit that we can change ourselves and then change the world. I think it's just more gaslighting.

Edit: And also, I notice that for the most part, except for Germans, people really don't like honesty. I don't fucking know how to manage that. How are we supposed to know what is a lie and what is truth? It just seems like life is a minefield if everyone both lies and says they want the truth, but then hate and reject it when they hear it.

 

[Pryras]

Then why do we trust so much, when this is everywhere? Why do we trust our governments, or people in our social groups, or a bunch of strangers on a forum claiming to kill themselves, when we know that no one is as they claim to be, and most of us ourselves generally hide behind armor and facades?

Is it because we are concurrently disconnected from our own selves and our awareness?

If yes, how does that happen? Is culture/the world just one big gaslight, starting with our families, and spreading out into larger and larger social groups, which feed back into the smaller social groups, and hit the individual from every angle -- governments and politicians, mass media, education, religion, families? Really, as much as we dislike what our parents and other abusers did, can we fully blame them if they themselves are unaware? (Please don't think I'm being an apologist; I'm not. It's just that blame discharges discomfort and pain and uncertainty, but it seems to me uncertain that much of anyone is truly aware of their motives and actions, even as they're protecting themselves and lying to themselves. I think it runs very deep. And it's uncomfortable to not know where to lay the blame if they are not truly responsible for their actions because they don't have the capacity to be. If that's the case, and this is so rampant, then almost no one is safe for anyone.)

I would think practicing Buddhists would be the least likely to be unaware, and to be the most honest, especially with the guidance of the Five Precepts, yet there is just as much corruption and abuse in Buddhism as there is in Catholicism. Ffs, the Dalai Lama, who is supposed to own nothing and is strictly limited to what he is allowed to wear, owns and wears watches -- 15 watches, some of them Rolexes, all presumably gifts, but still, he's not supposed to wear such things or own anything. And abuse -- he himself was physically and emotionally abused by his teachers when he was the young Dalai Lama receiving his training, and abuse runs rampant in sanghas, because one who brings doubt upon or discord to the sangha is threatened with rebirth into a hell realm, and teacher abuse is excused as giving a benevolent gift of fulfilling karma for the abused. The Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet was funded by the CIA, supposedly without his knowing until after the fact. Yet he is so loved and revered because he has a funny laugh and is charismatic, and goes on about his religion being happiness, but it seems to me like hype. (Personally, I bet he's one mean and shrewd motherfucker.)

Anyhow, your comment made me think. I hope you don't feel I was questioning you or going on the attack. I'm just deeply troubled. I want the world to be better than it is when there is so much potential. I want humans and society to have evolved further than this. I want all my hard work of self-evolution to pay off, but I am powerless to do anything. Sure, I'm more aware and stand taller, I respect myself deeply and I've earned my respect, but I can't effect any real change. It was worth climbing the mountain and reaching the summit, but it think for me there are no more summits. I think it's social engineering bullshit that we can change ourselves and then change the world. I think it's just more gaslighting.

Edit: And also, I notice that for the most part, except for Germans, people really don't like honesty. I don't fucking know how to manage that. How are we supposed to know what is a lie and what is truth? It just seems like life is a minefield if everyone both lies and says they want the truth, but then hate and reject it when they hear it.

I get you, and the whole thing is super frustrating and just doesn't make much sense the more you really delve into it. It all seems very counterproductive and disengenous. It's true that most people don't look for honesty, it's safer to lie, avoid confrontation and flow with the crowd. The truth is uncomfortable and can cause people to face feelings and emotions that they'd rather not see. It breaks illusions and disrupts the fantasy. There's some truth to the saying "Ignorance is bliss." The Dalai Lama is a good example of how hypocrital people can be. I see it in others and I see it in myself. I can justify everything I do but I don't give that to others who could very well benefit with the same understanding.

I'm proud you were able to stand taller and put in the self work to climb your way up. Though I think most people won't evolve or improve themselves because change is uncomfortable, even if it's positive. Although I wouldn't say that your powerless in evoking change. I get what you mean in the grande scheme of things but your success could impact someone greatly.

PS I'm studying Dialetics and it's interesting. There was a lot of back and forth with several women in my group who pointed out issues that they had with finding middle ground in certain scenarios. This thread reminded me of that in a way.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm studying Dialetics and it's interesting. There was a lot of back and forth with several women in my group who pointed out issues that they had with finding middle ground in certain scenarios. This thread reminded me of that in a way.

I have no idea what it means, but you're not the first person to have accused me of being dialectical!

Sorry.. didnt really expect this to come out. About to cry, this hit really fucking hard. Sorry for the rant guys/gals

I didn't expect to cry when I wrote the OP!

Seems like you did some really good processing there. That last part, comparing his "love" for his family to his "love" for his car, was particularly powerful. Thank you for sharing all of that! I got a lot out of reading it.

I wonder how he would feel if he ever got that people don't really like him, and that some can see him more clearly than he can see himself, and that they want him to change so they can like him and be close to him?

My parents never understood that I wanted the abuse to stop so that they could be close to me, and be safe to be close to me. Instead, they felt attacked and negated, and clung all the more firmly to their skewed views of me and my motives/motivations, and to their beliefs in the rightness of what they were doing. But ffs, if "it hurt my mom more than it hurt me" to physically assault me, then that pain was a signal that it wasn't right. Love isn't supposed to hurt or cause hurt, it's supposed to soothe, comfort, heal, and improve. Beating me never improved anything, didn't bring about any desired results in almost seventeen years. All it did was to cognitively make me their enemy, because one does not assault someone they love and want to protect, only someone who deserves it. I just now realized, once she crossed that line, she couldn't uncross it and hold onto her sense of self, she had to double down. I had to ask her when I was 17 to stop, and she beat me one more time after that before she finally stopped, and then a final, different assault a year later. She puts on such displays of being powerful and strong and common sense, but she is really internally weak and irrational -- I keep realizing that anew. I was calling her out on her irrationality and early as three or four, and by the age of seven, I was really getting beaten for it, she stepped up her method to try to break me. That's what the majority of the beatings were about, calling out her irrationality and being really intelligent, but not knowing how to patiently finesse (i.e., manipulate) her to get my way, to feed her ego and play her weaknesses to my advantage. Here I am at 49, writing a thread about still being shocked and feeling inept and powerless in the face of these things -- it is a core issue of my entire life. I still want everyone to be better and do better, to reach a standard that they don't want to. And I want shit to make sense, for everyone to make sense. It's as you said, @Pryras:

Though I think most people won't evolve or improve themselves because change is uncomfortable, even if it's positive.

and

I get you, and the whole thing is super frustrating and just doesn't make much sense the more you really delve into it. It all seems very counterproductive and disengenous. It's true that most people don't look for honesty, it's safer to lie, avoid confrontation and flow with the crowd. The truth is uncomfortable and can cause people to face feelings and emotions that they'd rather not see. It breaks illusions and disrupts the fantasy.

Damn, this is some good therapy!

 

[262653]

Even though it's an ancient human trait, tied in, perhaps, with the primate trait of saving face, I have a hard time understanding that. If someone wants others to think well of them, but it's not based on the truth, then what do they get out of it?

Favor. There's a perfect saying about that, something like "be polite with everyone, you never know who will be among twelve jurors". There are times in our lives (maybe too much of them) when another person has influence over us, what that person thinks of us may be a deciding factor in whether we get the verdict we want. If I were powerful enough that no other person would have any meaningful influence over me, I'd probably have no need to impress others.

Still there's a thing such as impressing oneself. It also touches some of your other questions about being aware of one's own deception. I had a talk with my family friend about my suicidality, he said things literally overloaded nervous system like never before (or so I recall) to the point my whole body was vibrating like a mobile phone. He said things that I know but dare not to think of, it's like a blind spot to me. I assume that subconsciously I know how much pain these thoughts can bring (and I mean pain, not just suffering), and avoiding them at all costs. But since he didn't know where my wounds are located (nor he could feel them), he had no trouble picking at them. Later I realized just how much suicide fuel I can gather by talking about sensitive things with other people. They can deliver a lethal strike without even knowing!

But more to the point. You don't have to worry about your own manipulative tricks if you're not aware of them :)

At first I felt like answering some of these questions. The percieved benefit is to gain some insight on why I do things the way I do. I didn't feel like sharing this because I didn't do the stylistic editing, and made a lot of repetitions. I didn't feel like expressing less fake side of myself, and started questioning if it's worth it...
So anyway, here it goes.

If you're one who seeks the camouflage, acceptance and admiration, but aren't who or what you project, why? Mostly to avoid conflicts that I think would bring more harm than benefit.

How does that serve me?
I don't know. To know I'd have to try both pretending and being honest in the same scenario… But subjectively, I feel bad for being a weakling and have others having influence over me.

Do you think you could benefit and grow from being revealed?
Revealed to whom? I sit before computer almost all day. I talk about suicide or play games. How would I benefit from revealing my suicidality to my gaming buddies?
Oh… you probably mean being revealed in general. Yes, I think I can, but I doubt it's worth the price, which is losing the favor of some people… but I also could gain some with honesty. But just how many people would want to hear what I have to say?

Do you think those who are vulnerable to you, such as dependents and loved ones, would get more value and safety from the real you if you could no longer hide?
Not every one of them would handle the real me, but some would, and I believe they benefit from it already.

Would you truly be in danger if your vulnerability and actual self were revealed?
I could lose more that I'd gain, and that's what I wager on, but I don't know for sure.

There are so many things I could ask you!
Indeed, isn't that amazing?

Do you feel powerful? Do you feel like you win? Do you feel good about it?
Hell naw. Hell naw. And, you guessed it right, hell naw.
There's no good feelings to be found in having wants and needs but no sufficient power so secure them. Some might say: go exercise, lift weights, do martial arts, study law. That could help to position my needs and wants above others, override them in cases of conflict. Even if I could, I would still have to slave to my nature. And even more so with all the effort I put in maintaining my power.
I'd have to severely limit my consciousness to think this is the victorious scenario. The only "winning" move I see for myself is not to play this rigged game.

If you ever did lose your camouflage, acceptance and admiration, how did that change your life and change you?
It differs. It's usually bad if I weren't aware of my own faking, but I find awareness to be a decent consolation prize. It's like: "Aha! I see what you (nature) made me do. That didn't work well in the end, now did it? Well now I'm not going to waste energy on maintaining a façade and feeling bad afterwards!" I know, it sounds silly to feel like I won a fight against my nature, considering it pretty much owns me, but at least the slavery feels less malignant now.
It's like wearing varying kinds of armor and wearing no armor at all. What is preferable depends on the circumstances, and how well you understand the situation. (Am I on the battlefield? Which weapons I'm against? Is the risk of choosing this particular armor/no armor worth the benefit? And such.) This is where knowledge and awareness help a lot.

If you're like me, and accept yourself for all your weirdness and difference, and live the same both publicly and privately, do you find it brings benefit or not?
I don't think I'm like you, but I'd like to be, at least in regard of living up to my convictions.

Do you get enough reward for walking the harder road of integrity and self-acceptance? Do you feel lonely because it seems so few others walk that path?
I think it's worth it. I lose some benefits from other people but it also takes less energy to "be yourself", as I don't have to spend it up-keeping the layers of lies.
It's also easier to find like-minded people if you're being honest with others. I have to admit that I really like you. I have yet to establish why…

Ok, I'm tired. I'll do something else and return to to read the rest of the thread, and maybe will add something.

 

[Soul]

I feel all jumbled up by this thread. How can I tell how forthright I am? Given the human propensity for justifying absolutely anything, how do I know where I am on that ultra fine line between striving to be a better person and pretending to be a better person?

Bob Dylan said "everyone's conscience is vile and depraved. You cannot depend on it to be your guide when it's you who must keep it satisfied." So what's left? Subscribing to an outside value system? Or remaining home-made and hoping for the best?

I strive. It's one of my most consistent traits. But sometimes it slides into pretending.

If people recognized that I'm pretending, they could throw the baby out with the bathwater, rejecting not only the BS but also things I've been striving so hard to be and to convey and to represent in good faith, because I want to live right.

I'm exhausted. Thanks, @GoodPersonEffed x

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Favor. There's a perfect saying about that, something like "be polite with everyone, you never know who will be among twelve jurors". There are times in our lives (maybe too much of them) when another person has influence over us, what that person thinks of us may be a deciding factor in whether we get the verdict we want. If I were powerful enough that no other person would have any meaningful influence over me, I'd probably have no need to impress others.

Favor. That answered something huge for me. I'd already brought it up in another thread, but hadn't related it to this inquiry.

I recently read an essay by Montaigne, "One who is punished for defending a place obstinately without reason." Three passages stick out for me in relation to this discussion, especially the last one:

Like all other virtues valor has its limits; overstep them, and you tread the path of vice; consequently a man may go right through the dwelling place of valor into rashness, stubbornness and madness [or temerity, obstinacy and folly] if he does not know where those boundaries lie: yet at the margins they are not easy to pick out.

But the judgment of the strength or weakness of a place is formed by estimating the comparative strength of the forces attacking it; a man might properly hold out against two [cannon] who would be crazy to resist thirty cannon.

Thus above all we must beware, if we can, of falling into the hands of an enemy judge who is victorious and armed.

I think something I'm struggling with in my inquiry is the idea of power -- personal power. Virtue and integrity imply power over oneself. There is always someone who will have power over us, and they can give or take away favor. Sometimes that power is an illusion, like how people judge us and what actual effects that judgment can have. And whether we act in integrity or not, we can still be misjudged, falsely blamed, and fall out of favor (@Soul, as Dylan also sang about the vicissitudes of fortune, "Everybody must get stoned"); as well, we can be misjudged and falsely praised and gain unmerited favor.

I grew up in the hands of an enemy judge who was victorious and armed. The family story is that one must be ashamed of who they are and be completely sublimated, wear a family mask and be someone they're not, and then potentially be accepted by the family, and by society, and by the world. I think my parents had to lose themselves to their own families, and they expected me to carry on that tradition or be the scapegoat and be shunned. I've read that of all the abuse roles, the scapegoat is the most fortunate, because they tend to see through the bullshit, call out the truth, and maintain enough of a sense of self and inner strength to survive and even potentially thrive one they become adults. So even though it my last comment I was thrown at the end by recognizing I have a lifetime core issue of still being shocked by and fighting illusions and abuses of power, I come back to remembering that it is both my survival strength and my achilles heel. But before I go off the deep end, I have to remind myself -- doesn't everyone have something like that in their lives that is both their power and their potential downfall?

Which relates to the Montaigne quote.

I stand alone. I do not win favor except by being my genuine self, and I do not rely on crutches but rather my integrity. Which means sometimes I lose, because there are many victorious and armed enemy judges in life, but I at least maintain myself.

Whether it's my mother or powerful leaders, it seems that one is required to give up their self-respect and their very sense of self in order to gain favor, and they can hope that one day they will accumulate enough favor, power, or position that they have more of a say in their own lives; only I think by then, they are more likely to be focused on the power and themselves become violent and oppressive: "I have power and I want power."

@Soul, you asked about subscribing to an outside value system or doing one's best. I apologize, I don't mean to harp on and even proselytize for Stoicism, it's just the only value system that's served me and keeps proving itself to me as worthy and truly valuable. It challenges me, I think, as you have been challenged by this thread. Seneca and those who came before him recommended a meditation whereby every night one reviewed their actions over the day, and reinforced what was done well, and worked out what they wanted to improve on. The striving was hugely important to them, and it is to me as well. They had the ideal Wise Man they knew no human could ever accomplish, but they strove for it. Similarly, I think the world would be a safer and healthier place if people who had harmed others weren't punished or annihilated, but made aware and chose to move forward having learned and striving to do better.

But back to power. @Burzolog, thank you, you really got me to thinking. And I appreciate so much that you shared all that you did. I hope you got some benefit from the exercise as well. (I'm not sure why you like me, either, but I got a laugh out of that.)

Anyhow, power.

In my mid-twenties, I found and met my biological mother. It took me years to understand that she is passive-aggressive, and as I later studied this personality type, I came to agree with the assessment that it is the most difficult personality type to deal with. I also came to understand that it is about finding power in having been disempowered. In fact, when I lived in Guatemala, I saw that this personality type is rampant in empoverished indigenous communities.

The person who is passive-aggressive has a mask. They can be quite charismatic, charming, and well-liked. They will hide and pretend for as long as they need to, and no one but their targets, once they become targets, would ever guess or believe how quickly and cruelly they punish for a perceived wrong, and it will usually be long after the offense.

In the case of my biological mother, she had a step-mother similar to my adoptive mother, but instead of standing up to the abuser and getting beaten for it, and developing a certain authenticity and strength (which was my achilles heel because I wouldn't back down and give up my self-respect or what I knew to be reality), she instead hid behind a mask and struck out later, getting revenge when she could. She had a stronger sense of self-preservation than I do, but at the cost that she doesn't show her true self to anyone or share it. It only comes out to try to take back when it thinks it has been stolen from or abused, and I don't think it can see from behind the masks that not everyone is screwing it over or taking from it. It think that part of her is a child who never got to grow up, never got to become healthy in the outdoors and sunshine. Maybe this says something about how masks and camouflage develop, and that perhaps we are all children who have developed maladaptive coping skills.

I'd like to say one last thing in this comment, and @Soul, it again relates to that outside value system.

Marcus Aurelius was taught Stoicism by his adoptive family, and later was chosen by them to become the emperor of Rome. Historians say that he was the last emperor under whom Rome flourished. He kept his ego in check. He used his power to serve others. @Burzolog, he was highly conscious of favor and sycophants. Seneca says that it is what is not true which disgusts us, and I find myself disgusted by Bill Clinton's claim that he reads the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius once a year. I don't mean to be condemning, judgmental, or on my high horse, but my stomach literally turns in disgust at this, and it is an uncontrollable, physiological response like a red flag. His actions are utterly misaligned with Marcus Aurelius's ethics -- is it just camouflage to claim this? Or does he maybe read it since manipulators often target those with high ethics, therefore it's not a lie that he reads it, but perhaps it's a study in how to bring down the best.

How do I wrap this up? It's not quite eloquent, but it's genuine. It's that quote from Montaigne. I don't want my clinging to my virtues to turn into vice or folly. But no matter how bad things are, I don't want to give up my self and my self-respect, or at the least, I don't want to set aside my awareness of realty and accept gasligting alternative narratives. I think the result for me is that I end up standing alone and often targeted, but I don't feel like a madwoman or a martyr. I feel like this is what I must stand for, and if I end up the hands of armed enemy judges, I may suffer horrifically, but I still have myself, and I have compassion.

The Stoics warned against being on one's high horse. They encouraged compassion because every human had the same potential for bad traits and decisions as well as good. Social work researcher Brene Brown says that the most boundaried people are also the most compassionate. I think perhaps the best solution for me is to not do what turns my stomach, but nor to hate those whose actions harm me. I may not win anything but my sense of self and well-being. I still have that even in my choice to suicide, because it is ultimately recognizing that I cannot stand against 30 cannon, and it is a preservation of the self I worked hard to maintain long enough to find. Integrity has been my path, whether I chose it or not. Integrity means wholeness. I am whole, and I am very much alone, but at no cost to my self-respect. I think all humans bargain to feel they've gotten the best out of something, so I don't dare stand on a pedestal and point down to others and demand they do as I do; it may not genuinely serve all, but only me. Perhaps I, too, have negotiated to become this self, and had I come from different circumstances or had different talents, I would gladly wear camouflage and play favor and power games. Maybe what I think is my self and my integrity and my openness are camouflage, too.

Do you get enough reward for walking the harder road of integrity and self-acceptance? Do you feel lonely because it seems so few others walk that path?
I think it's worth it. I lose some benefits from other people but it also takes less energy to "be yourself", as I don't have to spend it up-keeping the layers of lies.
It's also easier to find like-minded people if you're being honest with others

You are correct that it takes less energy to be me. I figured that out somehow in my teens and twenties. It's easier to just be me instead of struggling to be something else. But it has not been easy to find like-minded others. I've had some good friendships for a time, but in my honesty, I seem to always be an outlier. It feels like there's only so much truth anyone is capable or willing to handle. I've never had a romantic or platonic partner in life who is willing to go all the way with truth, honesty, and authenticity. Perhaps those are some of the most fundamental things about me, and for most, I think they are not, or if they are, it is not their goal to connect with those things, and it is not for me to dictate that for them. So I'm pretty fucking alone. And then I have to ease off the seriousness and laugh at how ridiculous I am. We all are. It's all so serious it becomes caricature.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

but it's not based on the truth, then what do they get out of it?

Self validation. Confidence. Success.
We are all self delusional to a greater or lesser degree otherwise we'd never learn and go utterly nuts.
Delusion is important therefore it's valuable for people to be validated even if they haven't worked for it.
Reality and truth are something we can only deal with in small chunks, and telling ourselves otherwise is buying into the very delusional state we claim to take no part in.
It's really better not to try and think about it.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Self validation. Confidence. Success.

Invalid. False confidence. Success on a precipice.

We are all self delusional to a greater or lesser degree otherwise we'd never learn and go utterly nuts.
Delusion is important therefore it's valuable for people to be validated even if they haven't worked for it.
Reality and truth are something we can only deal with in small chunks, and telling ourselves otherwise is buying into the very delusional state we claim to take no part in.

Hmm, there's a whole lot of "we all" in this. And some accusation in the last phrase, masked as "ourselves" and "we."

I'm going to stand outside of this and reframe it as you saying "me/I" and "you." And I make the observation that it's a rarity for you to make broadly inclusive and unsupported claims.

It's really better [for Underscore] not to try and think about it.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I feel all jumbled up by this thread.

Cognitive dissonance?

How can I tell how forthright I am? Given the human propensity for justifying absolutely anything, how do I know where I am on that ultra fine line between striving to be a better person and pretending to be a better person?

I'm confused about how there is an ultrafine line between striving and pretending. Can you explain that?

 

[262653]

Then why do we trust so much, when this is everywhere? Why do we trust our governments, or people in our social groups, or a bunch of strangers on a forum claiming to kill themselves, when we know that no one is as they claim to be, and most of us ourselves generally hide behind armor and facades?

Is it because we are concurrently disconnected from our own selves and our awareness?

If yes, how does that happen? Is culture/the world just one big gaslight, starting with our families, and spreading out into larger and larger social groups, which feed back into the smaller social groups, and hit the individual from every angle -- governments and politicians, mass media, education, religion, families? Really, as much as we dislike what our parents and other abusers did, can we fully blame them if they themselves are unaware? (Please don't think I'm being an apologist; I'm not. It's just that blame discharges discomfort and pain and uncertainty, but it seems to me uncertain that much of anyone is truly aware of their motives and actions, even as they're protecting themselves and lying to themselves. I think it runs very deep. And it's uncomfortable to not know where to lay the blame if they are not truly responsible for their actions because they don't have the capacity to be. If that's the case, and this is so rampant, then almost no one is safe for anyone.)

I'd guess so. "Disconnected" sounds to me here as abnormality, malfunction, not the way it supposed to be. But isn't that the default state? It all reminds me of math. Math isn't real but it allows us to make sense of the world, and to make accurate predictions. And (maybe) there is something similar about own selves and our awareness. There has to be some tool/program that allows for introspection, but I'm not sure if we have the widespread education in this field. There are hints in biology, psychology, economy, politics, religion…

I remember you mentioned Cialdini's "Influence". I have read this too early in my life, but it was comprehensive enough to make sense of some things. With every principle I could come up with an example from my life when such manipulative trick was used against me or by me. I don't think he he explained how exactly these tricks work behind the curtain (in our bodies). He somehow spot the stable patterns. When X happens, Y usually also happen.

I don't exactly remember why I wanted to make this point. Maybe to present our knowledge and tools as something that don't have perfect correspondence to the objective world, but something that allows us to make accurate predictions so we don't have to walk the path of unnecessary suffering.

It's probably the same with lies. They allow some of us to produce the desirable effect. Lying and coming up with lies don't seem to require us to be aware that we're doing it… (Ugh, it's something that is better to describe in oral language.)

We still have to blame others for the harm they're doing, free will or not, because the alternative isn't doing anything to prevent it from happening in the future, and showing that they can get away with this has only the room for making things worse.

A little about good feelings.
I just recently realized how I was underestimating the influence of feelings in the present moment. I do think I'd be better off dead but I can't get through the barrier of intense unpleasant feelings (fear, pain, SI, whatever). I'd assume that for a similar reason some people stick to the delusions that don't serve them any good (I thought of your mother as an example here, @GoodPersonEffed), because trying to dispel them is way too painful in the now. Just as the torturer's victim is usually ready to sign anything just to end this torment, or a rapist who's, under the promise of intense pleasure, ready to fuck his victim without caring about the long-term consequences for any of them.

That's it for now. I'll read and respond to the rest later. There's just so much to think about. I wish I could keep up with you.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Invalid. False confidence. Success on a precipice.



Hmm, there's a whole lot of "we all" in this. And some accusation in the last phrase, masked as "ourselves" and "we."

I'm going to stand outside of this and reframe it as you saying "me/I" and "you." And I make the observation that it's a rarity for you to make broadly inclusive and unsupported claims.

Sorry, I forgot that you are sensitive about the 'we' thing.
Interesting that the way you imply that I may be talking for others is to actually rewrite what you believe I should have said in order not to.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Sorry, I forgot that you are sensitive about the 'we' thing.
Interesting that the way you imply that I may be talking for others is to actually rewrite what you believe I should have said in order not to.

Ya know, you're right.

I am sensitive, i.e, invalid, and clearly incapable of critical thinking when I refuse to accept something that feels wrong and unfitting. Silly feelings!

When will I ever learn??

I probably should feel sorry for my parents never being able to get through to me. How frustrating it must have been for them!

Like when I'd flinch before my mom would hit me, and she'd deride, "Oh, I haven't even touched you yet!" Silly, sensitive me, anticipating and wanting to bear up against, deflect, or escape from pain.

Or when I complained about the beatings and my dad would bark, "It wasn't that bad!" Silly me, thinking bruises that proved the physical pain were also proof of abuse and therefore proof of bad.

Or my poor biological mother, who got offended and increasingly angry when I as an adult already had my own sense of style and didn't want to try on her old lady clothes just to please her. Silly me, not wanting another to put their things on me that I don't like and that don't fit.

Seems I did the latter in my comment to you as well.

Maybe you should do what all these people did and stop talking to me since I'm so indefensibly sensitive, and clearly have no ability or desire to comprehend what's really happening. I'm too blinded by my sensitivity, which makes me not smart enough to change, but I do understand that it's probably best that you don't read or comment on my posts anymore, because I'm a lost cause, and you don't deserve the frustration. I'll just suck the serenity right out of your life. It's what I do. And I can't help it. Silly me having unmerited self-respect, otherwise I'd say to all of them, as well as to you: I'm sorry. I know I make no sense, therefore I can't possibly expect to get through. Even better than you going no contact, I'll do it. I'm at least that smart, at last.

 

[262653]

@GoodPersonEffed
Good one. I also really liked judges and cannons. I find it easier to understand things with analogies so that I can use already existing ideas to understand the unexplored ones.

Hahaha! Thanks for your post. Very interesting... I wanted to reply with something more than a good one. It was a lot easier with the predefined set of questions. I knew I don't have anything to say but I kept trying. It's like trying to squeeze the blue toothpaste out of the tube with exclusively green toothpaste, useless and a waste of energy. It's not impressive but hey, it's authentic xD And in a way that can be impressive too... And maybe that even was my intention.

I guess the exercise was indeed very beneficial.