[Article] If life was really that good, then pro-lifers shouldn’t have to worry about people opting out!

[TAW122]

This was a thought that I had in mind for quite some time after pondering about existence and the value of sentience itself. I don't believe (personally) that life is a gift nor valuable, as it is an unnecessary imposition onto all living beings against their will. In this article though, I will explain the reasoning on why pro-lifers should not worry about people opting out of life, if they (the pro-lifers') enjoy life themselves!

Anyways, here is a quote from EG (Existentialgoof) on Reddit:

"I don't think that the preponderance of the evidence shows that life is fundamentally good. If life were fundamentally good; then we'd all be living at peace with each other, with minimal conflict. We'd be happy to share the resources that we had equitably (because just being alive would be enough to fill our heart with fulfillment); there wouldn't be constant political tension, violence and war. We wouldn't have about 1/5th of the adult population with a so called 'mental illness' in any given year (and that's in prosperous countries). And if life were fundamentally good; then we could just let those who don't wish to participate in life decide to opt out, because the loss of those people wouldn't be sufficient to destabilise things in any significant way. A population that was already happy just as it was would not see the need to hold hostages; and probably wouldn't be so cruel as to be inclined to do so. Whether or not metrics on child poverty are getting better does not demonstrate that life is good; all it would demonstrate is that some of the problems that life is causing are being solved a bit better today than they were in the past. "

The parts that are bolded in his quote are the ones that are most relevant to the point of my thread/article here. To put it succinctly, if life was enjoyable (to the pro-lifers' and from their point of view), then whether others enjoyed it or not (especially when pro-choicers and others who don't find life to be good!) has NO bearing on a pro-lifers' value of life! The fact that people don't find it enjoyable offends the pro-lifers' moral code and values, therefore, they (selfishly) want to impose their will onto those who don't share the same sentiments! However, in reality, the people who don't enjoy life (those who have suffered immensely and want to escape suffering itself; have a permanent problem (life/sentience itself) and want to permanently solve it by CTB'ing) end up leaving and the fact that they left, should have no impact on the pro-lifers' lives (unless said pro-lifers are dependents of them, such as a parent of a child, a guardian of another person, an CEO/leader of an organization, etc.) Even those who are dependents, there would still be a point in which the dependent would no longer be in need of said person (child growing up, said person finding another person to help them, etc.).

An party analogy to make sense of my point:
Think of it like this, the party analogy. There is a crazy rave party that many party animals and enthusiasts like to partake in, and surely they enjoy every minute of it. The party is many hours long, like from evening until the next morning, so about 10 hours in duration. There are people who are coaxed into participating in the party as well as people who just willingly go just because they want to. Those who don't enjoy the party and would rather go home (not get wasted or drunk or partake in the event) are instead forbidden to go any earlier or even leave on their own. The doors are blocked off and any attempt to leave the party are barred by burly bouncers who forbade anyone from leaving the party on their own and any who dares to leave said party will be detained and put into a corner of shame while the rest of the party-goers (majority of them) live it up and enjoy every minute and moment of the event. The ones who don't enjoy it ends up not only having to endure the 10 hours of agony and torture, but also have their personal autonomy violated (the burly bouncers keeping them in).

Eventually the party ends, but it is not only unfair, but also immoral to dictate that those who don't enjoy the party to endure all 10 hours of the party. But for those who somehow luckily snuck out, under the nose of the burly bouncers at the party, they shouldn't have ANY impact on the other (majority of) party goers since they are just going to enjoy their time there regardless of who attends or not. People leaving (or not at all attending said party) should have zero impact on the ones who WANT to go and DO enjoy the party, regardless of how long the party may be (several hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, etc.)

In the end, it all just boils down to the fragile ego and atavistic morals that pro-lifers hold in which they don't want challenged, questioned, or otherwise examined, but seek to uphold their own views, even at the cost of others' wellbeing and interests. That is one of the major reasons why the right to die still isn't established as a inalienable, unquestionable, and guaranteed right. Like one Redditor said in another thread, "The right to die debate is not a debate, but a conflict," which illustrates and proves the conundrum that humans have since the dawn of time.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The problem is still grief though. Parents don't necessarily depend on their children when they are young. They would still struggle if they took their own lives though. The trouble is- we don't live in isolation. Most people are deeply upset when people they love die.

Of course, a lot of it comes from misunderstanding. I think most people with an ounce of compassion would take pity on someone who was obviously in chronic and incurable pain. If only they could accept that a lot of suicidal people are also in a huge amount of pain- only, it doesn't show as much on the outside.

I think they sugar coat it by trying to say they want us to be able to enjoy life but they probably also believe that we can. So- I'm not sure they even see it as something unrealistic and unreasonable that they are forcing on us. Plus- they have the support of some heavyweight figures like doctors and psychiatrists that will tell them that their loved one is ill- that's why they're thinking like this. It isn't really them thinking this- it's their 'illness'.

To some extent- you can't exactly blame the 'normies'. Of course they don't want to see someone they love feel so unhappy that they want and maybe do kill themselves. I don't think it's necessarily that they want to trap us in this hellhole. (Not our loved ones anyway.) They probably just keep hoping we'll 'get better'.

It's not exactly reasonable though to say to a parent- you love life. Just because your 7 year old, 14 year old, 18 year old hung themselves- why should that upset you? It would upset most human beings I imagine. We're not robots!

What you would hope in the future though would be that more children and people in general felt they could be honest with their families about how they were feeling. So, there could be more understanding and support from them as to whether recovery is even possible or, if not- the process of accepting their wishes and saying goodbye. That would be the ideal I feel but- so much would have to change.

Like you've said in other threads, the psychiatric and medical industry would have to admit that some people just can't be helped to a stage where life is good for them. Plus- people would have to admit that it was them and only them that was keeping that poor person alive- against their will and they would have to acknowledge that actually- that was the selfish thing to do. Rather than everyone keep flipping it and saying to the suicidal person- stop selfishly contemplating inflicting all this pain on your loved ones. Plus- like you say- they would have to admit that the view that our own lives have worth is subjective and defined by whether we think they do. Not for someone outside to decide. Plus of course- assisted suicide would need to be legalised and the process regulated.

 

[FuneralCry]

I just believe that many pro-lifers refuse to accept suicide as a valid option as the thought of doing so scares them and as a result they automatically label suicidal people as being "ill" as they don't wish to accept that for many death is the preferred option. I hate how not wanting to exist isn't viewed as a valid choice and way to feel when it always is.

 

[TAW122]

The problem is still grief though. Parents don't necessarily depend on their children when they are young. They would still struggle if they took their own lives though. The trouble is- we don't live in isolation. Most people are deeply upset when people they love die.

Of course, a lot of it comes from misunderstanding. I think most people with an ounce of compassion would take pity on someone who was obviously in chronic and incurable pain. If only they could accept that a lot of suicidal people are also in a huge amount of pain- only, it doesn't show as much on the outside.

I think they sugar coat it by trying to say they want us to be able to enjoy life but they probably also believe that we can. So- I'm not sure they even see it as something unrealistic and unreasonable that they are forcing on us. Plus- they have the support of some heavyweight figures like doctors and psychiatrists that will tell them that their loved one is ill- that's why they're thinking like this. It isn't really them thinking this- it's their 'illness'.

To some extent- you can't exactly blame the 'normies'. Of course they don't want to see someone they love feel so unhappy that they want and maybe do kill themselves. I don't think it's necessarily that they want to trap us in this hellhole. (Not our loved ones anyway.) They probably just keep hoping we'll 'get better'.

It's not exactly reasonable though to say to a parent- you love life. Just because your 7 year old, 14 year old, 18 year old hung themselves- why should that upset you? It would upset most human beings I imagine. We're not robots!

What you would hope in the future though would be that more children and people in general felt they could be honest with their families about how they were feeling. So, there could be more understanding and support from them as to whether recovery is even possible or, if not- the process of accepting their wishes and saying goodbye. That would be the ideal I feel but- so much would have to change.

Like you've said in other threads, the psychiatric and medical industry would have to admit that some people just can't be helped to a stage where life is good for them. Plus- people would have to admit that it was them and only them that was keeping that poor person alive- against their will and they would have to acknowledge that actually- that was the selfish thing to do. Rather than everyone keep flipping it and saying to the suicidal person- stop selfishly contemplating inflicting all this pain on your loved ones. Plus- like you say- they would have to admit that the view that our own lives have worth is subjective and defined by whether we think they do. Not for someone outside to decide. Plus of course- assisted suicide would need to be legalised and the process regulated.

Good post and I brought the notion of dependents as one of the exceptions (but of course it is not indefinite, but only temporary) since that would be the only logical explanation for one to not be able to imminently opt out, is if they have obligations, though even then, once proper arrangements are made, such as having the right support and care for one's dependents, then one should still be free to exercise their bodily autonomy to check out of existence.

With regards to parents being upset, yes, that is something that almost all parents and families will experience, so in reality, sorrow and heartache is inevitable. However, I do believe there does come a point and a compromise that will work for everyone, but the biggest problem is for pro-lifers to accept concessions (which we know isn't happening anytime soon...).

I do agree that assisted suicide being legalized, codified as an inalienable right, and regulated (to minimize and prevent bad actors from taking advantage of it for nefarious purposes) is really one of the most reasonable solutions that benefit all parties. Also, yes, only the person living one's own lives understand best, better than even the closest people around said person.

I just believe that many pro-lifers refuse to accept suicide as a valid option as the thought of doing so scares them and as a result they automatically label suicidal people as being "ill" as they don't wish to accept that for many death is the preferred option. I hate how not wanting to exist isn't viewed as a valid choice and way to feel when it always is.

Yeah, that's true and sadly many pro-lifers just don't accept death as a valid and preferred option which is why this contention and conflict has been ongoing and will continue to be contentious forever (or until a major societal shift towards accepting CTB as a valid option).