Are we too harsh to people who have procreated in this forum?

[noname223]

Today I have read that someone got very nasty replies when she possibly were pregnant. Other people who have procreated complained about offensive comments towards them. Not sure if being offensive is a too hard word. Maybe it was only unfriendly. I don't have the exact quotes in mind but I have read similar replies.

I think antinatalism is very widespread in this forum. I also sympathize with it. Sometimes more and sometimes less. In my opinion there are good arguments for this philosophy but also some arguments against it. I can fully understand that people on here turn to antinatalism. Not being born at all is a wish many people on here share. This would have prevented all the unnecessary and torturous suffering.
However it is not a good sign when people who have procreated are too afraid to express that part of their biography. I have read also very compassionate posts when someone has lost his/her child to suicide. It is not a black or white pattern. There are also a lot of grey areas.

Personally I am not sure how bad the situation in this forum is concerning that topic. I am not too aware about it. Maybe the people who have experienced something hurtful could open up about it. On the other hand maybe it is too uncomfortable for them to talk about it.

I am not sure about the moral or ethical aspects concerning this discussion. Maybe someone would consider it as justifiable being harsh on someone who has procreated. Due to the possible pain they have caused or might cause in the future. I think there was a thread a long time ago someone told she or he really had the desire to procreate. Yeah even I have to admit you probably won't get too many welcoming replies when you post this in a suicide forum. On the other hand if you want to share something like that in this forum you probably want to get comments from other people. And you can express with decency that you think this is not a good idea without hurting (?) someone. But if you do something like that you should be aware you get many many replies telling you procreating is not a good idea.

In another perspective it might even be counterproductive to talk about that at all. Maybe it is like politics. The debate can get very heated very fast. However in this forum most are on the not-procreate side. I can remember in my self-help group someone asked if bipolar disorder has a genetical component. I replied yes. A debate started. There was an old man who had the opinion bipolar people should not procreate. Ironically he procreated but he saw how much his child suffered due to that. Other people felt deeply hurt by this stance.

My final words. We should treat each other with respect and we should not use any insults. This topic can get very emotional for many of us. People can get hurt on both sides. We should think carefully about our words. I have to admit this really sounds like old and boring platitudes. But I don't really have something better to offer. It would be really interesting when other people would open up about their experiences with this topic.
As I said I am not sure about the extent of this problem.

 

[user_name_here]

I would stop trying to understand the "collective" perspective of this forum. it varies drastically and i don't think most people share the same view on most topics outside of the pro-choice discussion.

There are rational people that use site, but there's also incels, nazis and general shitheads too.

 

[noname223]

I would stop trying to understand the "collective" perspective of this forum. it varies drastically and i don't think most people share the same view on most topics outside of the pro-choice discussion.

There are rational people that use site, but there's also incels, nazis and general shitheads too.

You might be right. I might generalize the members too much. This forum is very heterogeneous.

 

[Sherri]

You worry too much about ss noname I admire that about you. I also used to. But everyone gets offended so easily that I don't have your courage to say what I should say sometimes.

 

[noname223]

You worry too much about ss noname I admire that about you. I also used to. But everyone gets offended so easily that I don't have your courage to say what I should say sometimes.

I worry in general too much about my life. I only consist of worrying. Probably I also worry too much about SS.

 

[Nolan96]

Personally, I'm not in any way anti-natalist and am happy for people who manage to have happy, functional family lives. My only concern about a member of this forum becoming pregnant would be their well-being and the well-being of their child since they're most likely in a precarious mental health situation.

I think attacking a person over that in any way is totally cruel and uncalled for.

 

[Sherri]

I worry in general too much about my life. I only consist of worrying. Probably I also worry too much about SS.

Makes both of us, that's why I'm starting to get grey hair at 27. :) it's good to worry and shows that you are passionate about this forum. Like I said it's a good thing, the prob is the people who don't agree and then we take it to heart.

 

[summers]

If you are even considering suicide, you should not have kids. Period, end of story. No reason to be nasty about it, but let's be realistic here. A person in that mental state is more than likely going to fuck up that kid beyond repair, and we wind up with a future SS member.

 

[user_name_here]

maybe worth noting there are also people that feel suicidal because they may never be parents.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Frankly I think there is too much overreach on SS as far as other people's philosophies and outlook on life. You can't just yell "antinatalism" and expect anyone to listen. Life is unpredictable. I can't tell someone else whether they should have kids or not. I have no illusions about the value of my opinion in the context of other people's lives (it's worth less than shit).

Have kids or don't, idc. People are going to be messed up anyway and you're never going to nail parenthood even if you have all your ducks in a row.

 

[freedompass]

There's a lot I could say on this topic as a severely mentally ill mother of one. What I would ask people who might judge me to remember is that not all pregnancies are planned, sometimes circumstances are simply not in our control at all. In my case other people made the crucial decisions for me essentially. The effects on my son of being effectively passed around in his infancy, living with me for several years then ending up in long term foster care are the great regret of my life. If I'd had the gift of foresight I would have got sterilised in my teens but obviously that's just not a thing in any case. I had no clue I would end up psychotic and raving mad. So yeah. My son struggles now and is withdrawn from society. Thus the cycle continues. I incline toward antinatalism now but I am not hard line about it since many seem glad they are alive.

 

[summers]

maybe worth noting there are also people that feel suicidal because they may never be parents.

That's the equivalent to me being suicidal because I'll never be a billionaire, rock star, or professional athlete.

 

[Luchs]

I think so. I honestly never blamed my parents, I was given everything and the fact that I am a fuck up is soley on my part.

maybe worth noting there are also people that feel suicidal because they may never be parents.

I get that. Infertility is honestly one of my greatest fears.

 

[Life sucks]

No Ad hominem when telling facts. The problem is the phenomenon and not some members which are actually victims of everything like society and such indoctrination. Specially when something happened in the past and it's unchangeable, unfortunately humans are always in conflicts. To make things more clearer, it's a problem of the species, entities rather than individuals and I don't think personal attacks do anything with the problem and it should be avoided.

Reproduction is the one of the main causes of why many people want to ctb or ctbed already and it's important to know why.

Systematic reproduction and indoctrination is atrocious, and there is clear evidence in history and linguistics about how its built on the abuse of women and children. It all started with agricultural revolution and It's only recently that people are open about themselves in some parts of the world. Historically and even today, the path of Reproduction is built on abuse, oppression, blood, etc and people were forced to reproduce for the empires, women were abused and forced to reproduce a lot to increase armies. With a lot of indoctrination like religions, and ideologies, this abuse and loop of reproduction was done. There is a lot to this story but we won't talk more about the disgusting parts of this species (keep in mind this species kills billions of animals every year).

The species wants reproduction which is conflicting with the individuals and their suffering. And today a lot of problems are caused because of the species reproductive herd mentality, there are a lot of members who suffers because of that.

To make it clearer, reproduction causes at least two types of problems with a direct connection to suicidality.

First, creating a new person who could be a suicidal. Many members suffer mainly because of their existence or their parents. And trying to justify the phenomenon which directly caused their misery is an attack as well.

Second, The norm and ideologies to force reproduction are oppressive and the cause of the suicidality for many members. The society is merciless and people are cruel. They want people to reproduce then forget they even exist and leave them in misery. A lot of members with a wide variety of problems and discrimination against them, LGBTQ, people with pain and mental illnesses, disabilities, anyone or anything out of norm, etc are directly suffering from the society and forced reproduction, it's only recently that people found some freedom of expression and previously they were attacked, killed, humiliated, etc in order to keep reproduction. And there is a lot of other topics like pregnancy and how it destroyed a lot of women's lives.


I have nothing against individuals, I respect you and support your right to die. However, this cruel and atrocious phenomenon shouldn't be taken lightly specially when its one of the main causes of suicidality.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

If you are even considering suicide, you should not have kids. Period, end of story. No reason to be nasty about it, but let's be realistic here. A person in that mental state is more than likely going to fuck up that kid beyond repair, and we wind up with a future SS member.

Honestly with the state of the world I can't imagine having kids. It seems like a nightmare. I hear stories from teachers about generation Z and they seem pretty fucked up already.

 

[waitingforrest]

I think it has some truth to it. I most certainly must have said some hurtful things about people that procreated.

I still look at my parents and wished they have never made me. But I think I shouldn't let it color my view of all parents in the world. It's just really, I mean really, hard not to get cynical when talking about the human species.

I don't think I have the right to say is someone should have kids or not. But I will say that children are not some life checkbox to cross off. I often see parents trying to force their kids into their ideal vision, but children aren't just a customizable mini version of the parents.

Children are individuals and have thoughts and feelings of their own. That even children face the pressures of society as well. I just get so mad when a parent yells at a child because the child often can't do anything or they will get punished. Especially when it is little mistakes. Children shouldn't be a bandaid for problems and neither should they be used to dump frustrations.

To be a parent is to be responsible for caring for a child's needs, not just the physical, but also emotional. And not something to stop loving if the child grows up to not fit with the parents vision. I really wished that some parents could realize that kids grow up and change as well, and would accept that.

Of course this is just me saying things I wished my parents could have done. I wish I wasn't treated just as a asset.

That isn't to say I am not bitter against parents, because I will admit I do have a bias. I can't help but project my own distaste of life onto to be parents and I kind of hate that I do that. Throwing all other thoughts and rationality out the window.

There is another rabbit hole about the declining quality of life, society, overpopulation, and eventual future of the Earth, but I'm just going to focus on the parent side of things. There are so many layers... Otherwise I would be a complete resentful asshole on what I think about humanity as a whole.

This is just coming from someone who won't ever and shouldn't have kids. I won't ever know what it is like to be a parent, but I do know what it is like to be a child. And I know that a bad childhood can fuck up the rest of a person's life.

But I probably know nothing about this topic's more complex nuances, but I would be open to learning.

 

[Nanako]

I think it's unfair to give them a hard time over it, because the desire to procreate derives from a very strong and natural urge that's difficult to get rid of once you're struck by it.

 

[JustAMatterOfTime]

I must admit I do consider it wrong for someone who has children that rely on them to CTB, of course this isn't the full story always but it is just my opinion. Causing grief to people is one thing, abandoning dependents is another.

 

[Crazy4u]

can you please post a link to the thread?

 

[Foresight]

Give me grace because I would need to bite my tongue on that. For me personally I'd categorize that subject under if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

 

[noname223]

can you please post a link to the thread?

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/impact-of-losing-a-child.84180/

 

[ColorlessTrees]

It's such an engrained biologic desire that I don't fault people. Not to mention societal/familial pressure to have children. It's expected of the average person. I used to be extraordinarily immature about this and hate my parents, but there's no point in holding grudges. We're already here, and all we can do is find a way out with what we're given.

In principle, antinatalism is fine, but it tends to concentrate a certain type of person in one place. The depressed, psuedointellectual edgelords.

I don't agree with procreation for a multitude of reasons, and I'd never have children myself because I'd damn them to a life of inherited illnesses, but lashing out at those who do/already have had children isn't productive at all. It only causes more harm. However they feel about it now, they can't change that.

 

[ncmxm]

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/impact-of-losing-a-child.84180/

I'm sorry but where in this thread is anyone being harsh to people with children?

In principle, antinatalism is fine, but it tends to concentrate a certain type of person in one place. The depressed, psuedointellectual edgelords.

And natalists tend to be delusionally optimistic egotists
I can resort to name calling too but it's not a very good way to get your point across

 

[noname223]

I'm sorry but where in this thread is anyone being harsh to people with children?

This was in another thread. Here was one were they talked about the feelings of losing a child which I mentioned above. Was not sure which thread he was asking for.
But there was also this thread with the person who said she had bad experience with talking about a possible pregnancy in this forum. It must look like I just imagined that story with my fantasy. I can remember the thread where she described it. It was one of my threads. But I assume she prefers anonymity about that. She made bad experiences when talking about it and I don't want to publicly out her with that story. She said something like she stopped talking about that topic. I even don't feel good to talk about her in this thread in third person form. I think she does not want more attention for it. And I am kind of scared she could get more nasty comments when I give her more attention.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Being a suicidal woman's regretful offspring, I just don't understand how someone can rationalise having a child while suicidal. My mother did it, and lo and behold, she couldn't feel love or affection towards her daughter when I entered this world. Likewise, I experienced many traumatic events as a child where family members attempted suicide in front of me and scarred me for life. They also passed down so many fun genetic physical illnesses.

There is an inherent, basal instinct to procreate, but even when I feel the motherly urge, I know that it's selfish and wrong of me, to subject a child to having a parent who is unfit and can't give them what they need. It hurts, I understand it, but many times people put their own wants and desires over the wellbeing of a potential child.

My mother was one of those starry eyed people who thought having a baby would fix her problems. My father didn't want a child. It was a recipe for disaster because neither of them wanted me when I became a living creature rather than some idealised daydream.

Once that baby is born, you can't take it back, and the state will rarely remove a child from it's biological family even if that family is completely incapable of caring for it. Abuse or neglect isn't taken seriously until it is life threatening. A child isn't like a pet that you can easily send to a shelter, or a purchase that can be refunded, it is a lifelong obligation that will require a great deal of self sacrifice.

Unfortunately, way too many people have children simply because they want them, or think it will make them feel happier, with little concern for how they will provide for the child, nurture it, and put their offspring's needs before their own when the going gets tough.

It's very easy to impregnate someone or get pregnant yourself, but it's not easy to be a parent. Unfortunately, because this is a biological instinct driven by DNA, it often makes people uncomfortable to discuss things like antinatalism or abstaining from procreation for other reasons and choosing adoption instead.

DNA wants to replicate itself no matter what, in the same vein that a virus or a bacteria infecting a host will keep multiplying because it's all the RNA and DNA are programmed to do. DNA has no means to contemplate compassionate or pragmatic decisions, it just seeks to sustain and replicate itself no matter what. Knowing this, it is easier for me to recognize that the desire to have biological children isn't something inherently logical and it's just a feature of being a living organism, however, I don't have to follow what DNA is driving me to do.

 

[Julgran]

I hope that no one procreated in this forum

Jokes aside, I put the blame of everything that has gone wrong in my life, on my parents and the other adults that were around during my upbringing - both because they directly caused some of my problems, and also because they didn't raise me to become a proper adult.

However, I imagine that it can be a little less fair to blame parents - let's say, for example - for not being aware of how the world at large will turn out when their newborn child grows up, and how their child can be affected by world events 20 or more years down the line.

 

[ColorlessTrees]

I'm sorry but where in this thread is anyone being harsh to people with children?


And natalists tend to be delusionally optimistic egotists
I can resort to name calling too but it's not a very good way to get your point across

Let me clarify, since I didn't mean to come off that way. That was a generalization referring to a specific subforum, and not this one. I'm sorry, I should've worded it better. It's just something I've seen a lot. I don't think a lot of the people I'm specifically referring to are antinatalists in the traditional sense, just looking for an outlet.

I don't agree with natalists either, and I see the same pitfalls with them. Simply put, extremists on either side tend to become insufferable.

 

[OceanBlue]

What exactly are 'also some [good] arguments against it'?

Bringing a child into a dangerous world to suffer and die is the ultimate crime, you can't know how their life will turn out - it's a huge risk.

There may be circumstances when this could be justified, but it does not make it less of a crime in itself.

It is currently celebrated, when it should be (harshly) judged - because this will start changing societal expectations regarding this custom - even though we don't make decisions ourselves, our brains will process this input and hopefully change for the better.

 

[noname223]

What exactly are 'also some [good] arguments against it'?

Bringing a child into a dangerous world to suffer and die is the ultimate crime, you can't know how their life will turn out - it's a huge risk.

There may be circumstances when this could be justified, but it does not make it less of a crime in itself.

It is currently celebrated, when it should be (harshly) judged - because this will start changing societal expectations regarding this custom - even though we don't make decisions ourselves, our brains will process this input and hopefully change for the better.

Here are some. I don't agree on some but you have asked for it.
Antinatalism makes people depressed. It focuses too much on the negative side of life. Having this pessimistic view of life could make your depression worse. This argument has flaws. But it is true that the vast majority of people are glad that they live. And they are glad that they were born. They are thankful that their parents procreated. Another one is life has inherent value. Being conscious can be either a blessing or a huge pain. Antinatalism as a philosophy comes especially from people who are in a lot of pain. Maybe these people cannot judge whether life in general has this inherent value because they are too biased by their negative experiences. The pain of these people might be neglectable. They still can kill themselves if they don't like life. Why denying happy people the possibility of existing when the unhappy still can ctb?

Yeah I can imagine this point of view is not very popular in a suicide forum. I emphasize this is not my opinion I just repeat some arguments which I have thought about or read.

 

[OceanBlue]

Here are some. I don't agree on some but you have asked for it.
Antinatalism makes people depressed. It focuses too much on the negative side of life. Having this pessimistic view of life could make your depression worse. This argument has flaws. But it is true that the vast majority of people are glad that they live. And they are glad that they were born. They are thankful that their parents procreated. Another one is life has inherent value. Being conscious can be either a blessing or a huge pain. Antinatalism as a philosophy comes especially from people who are in a lot of pain. Maybe these people cannot judge whether life in general has this inherent value because they are too biased by their negative experiences. The pain of these people might be neglectible. They still can kill themselves if they don't like life. Why denying happy people the possibility of existing when the unhappy still can ctb?

Yeah I can imagine this point of view is not very popular in a suicide forum. I emphasize this is not my opinion I just repeat some arguments which I have thought about or read.

If you'd like a technical analysis on these points - you can read "Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence" by David Benatar, who is a philosopher.