Discussion Another expert weighs in on the cause of suicide

[FTL.Wanderer]

From this article. Thanks @Tinkerthinker55 for their earlier post here on SS..

Quote from comment section expert Oppenheimer1948: "Brain inflammation and brain de-myelination are the underlying causes of suicide. With inflammation in the brain - a teen cannot shut off the disturbing intense emotions. With de-myelination in the brain - a teen suddenly loses scholastic skills and emotional self- regulation. Both of these are reversible with cheap, generic medication that must be used immediately in conjunction with a mood stabilizer for safety and an anti-depressant. De-myelination is exacerbated by industrial toxic chemicals like the pesticide chlorpyrifos. Inflammation is exacerbated by global warming, dehydration, and new viral inflammation from tropical viruses that tend to reproduce in the central nervous system."

So many experts on why people commit suicide, yet suicide rates continue to rise...

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

More BS tomorrow.

Lots and lots of experts...

 

[TAW122]

The most direct answer is due to how society sucks and the things in world that are driving the people to suicide (financial problems, job stability, economic problems and factors, shitty human beings (they wouldn't want to admit it), and more). This is only the tip of the iceberg though. These experts are clueless to the real reasons why more people commit suicide than ever and then act surprised when more people are committing suicide. Instead of admitting that society is sick, flawed, and lots of social, economical, and environmental problems are causing people to be more inclined to want to die, they instead keep pushing suicide prevention like that would really help solve the underlying problems that cause people to want to suicide in the first place.

 

[Misanthrope]

Society as a whole does not seem to want to look at itself or have to change anything. Damaging environments and enshrined systems that cause harm have an incentive to downplay their role in the toxic environment they normalise. By making out it is you to blame. Mental illness, chaotic lifestyles or weak character becomes an easy scapegoat.

Reductionist psychology has command over the dominant narrative. To the extent, if you go up to someone and say 'chemical imbalance' at anyone they will likely know you are talking about depression. Yet that is entirely unsubstantiated. There are ghosts of patterns sure, but nothing considered outright proof. Psychiatry is also a hammer that can only see nails. So exploration of rational suicide is also mostly non-existent. Meaning core reasons why get lost, replaced with view everyone who is suicidal is irrational. Meaning environment or health reasons are often entirely neglected for a chemical magic fix. Such fixes though don't fix lonliness which is an abstract kind of pain.

I also find it bizarre that many pharmaceuticals wind up tested on mice. But to simulate depression in those mice they essentially torment the mice. That to me speaks of a water is wet level of science here. That if you torment people they come out damaged and exhibit disordered behaviour... Maybe we shouldn't trivialise stress then?

On some level, I think modern society is honestly damaging. The equivalent of being punched in the face repeatedly and told to like it or you are abnormal. Or force yourself to mentally redefine fists, maybe call it something else soft and fuzzy and make yourself believe that is true and fist are actually made of sponge. Then an insistence you take a brain altering chemical that makes being punched in the face more bearable. (Some pharmaceuticals are pretty much derivatives of street drugs, just chemically nudged and patented.)None of that though addresses what specifically is punching you in the face... A lot of people on here cite societal reasons driving their decision.

On the youth front Just look at what the youth is set to inherit. If they moan about how they are financially worse off than my own generation ever was they got told how entitled and lazy they are. If they point out how they can't get on the housing ladder and how work is now so insecure it provokes nothing but chronic anxiety they get vilified for it and told they lack work ethic. They also get vilified for hanging out together, but the youth centres likely closed. They get vilified for caring that biodiversity is dropping at an alarming rate.

They get vilified for challenging the broken systems at work that absolutely exploit their demographic. They are not represented in politics either. Social media has turned many into rewarded sadists you can't switch off from.

Children are tested to death and get found hanging from their bedroom curtains because of an 11 plus exam. Bullying is just torture and not taken seriously enough. The sadist gets rewarded and takes those child lessons into the adult world and likely winds up your manager. The bullied is still hurting from their prior experiences. There is a lot to despair over and the youth are not stupid they certainly see it.

 

[Reyki6667]

Expert. Haha.

looks like a 5 year old would say after only reaching the cheap non fact checked information wildly available and made a correlation on the top of its head.

Let's not forget the huge chunck of people still killing themselves after years or decade of struggle and treatment.

The most plausible cause is genetic.

If his correlation was true, our species would have died out since millennials ago.

 

[charlie_z]

I don't know what triggers a person to reach the point of wanting to take their life. I've known folks who've faced incredible hardship – a murdered family member, homelessness, heavy drug addiction, etc. – and yet endured with courage and dignity, while others, like me, ultimately feel crushed by the ugliness of the world and of our polluted minds. Why the difference? Is it genetics?; flawed childhood coping mechanisms?;, screwed up parents?

The truth is, well as far as I'm able to see a 'truth,' that there isn't a single galvanizing cause. Each individual comes into the world a unique agent. Each agent is shaped by the traits inherited from their parents and the different forces encountered in a lifetime: siblings, school, normative social mores, etc. And each agent develops in their own unique fashion.

Personally, what I find more important than what leads people to want to take their life is how social bodies (that is, family, school, the local community, the state) view the question of suicide. In my case it does involve long-running mental health issues, so I'm more easily dismissed as just another unfortunate 'sick' individual. But that's not always the case. People sometimes just need help, and that help can come in any number of ways. But we're not very good as a society when it comes to really reaching out to another. And when we wait too long to help, sometimes no level help will make a difference anymore.

 

[Hank]

Suicide rates might rise a bit. But currently it's about 0.01 percent of the people who commit suicide, worldwide. So it's not that bad. That number is really not bad if you look at the living conditions of a large group of the world population. It will just be more visible due to new media.

You don't really need a an expert to give you insight in why people do commit suicide. Some people have mental problems, physical pains. Or it's the circumstances that drive people to do it. It has always been like that, and it is not that complicated.

 

[LivingToLong]

The truth is, well as far as I'm able to see a 'truth,' that there isn't a single galvanizing cause. Each individual comes into the world a unique agent. Each agent is shaped by the traits inherited from their parents and the different forces encountered in a lifetime: siblings, school, normative social mores, etc. And each agent develops in their own unique fashion.

That is how I see things too. I sometimes wonder if we realise just how different we all are from one another.

In a world where stats are used so often to guide decisions, the individual is forgotten and can be left by the wayside. If you don't fit into the target percentiles then you'll be in for a struggle.

I was watching a news item on low achievers at school - that is, not simply children with diagnosed/diagnosable learning difficulties but also those that couldn't read and/or write, didn't pass exams. Those with diagnosed conditions find it tough, it's true, but they are identified and do get some help - it's not the best but it is something. The other category, those that simply didn't or couldn't pass exams, tend to just disappear back into a life of low paid jobs (if they can find them) and limited expectations - undervalued and forgotten. All because they couldn't pass an exam and move on to the next testing ground. Society ceases to care about them (at best, considers it an unfortunate price for the greater good) and such people are left to fend for themselves, relying on good natured individuals to help them. And that's just one example, that's just within the education system. One can find examples of similar in other areas. No, society really isn't very good at identifying the needs of individuals and helping them where needed; it seems to be aimed only at those that fall within the bands that progress societies aims.

Is it any wonder that people can feel forgotten and feel there is no hope. Worse still, that the odds are stacked against them. What do you do when you (correctly) identify that there is no way it's going to get any better?

 

[charlie_z]

That it how I see things too. I sometimes wonder if we realise just how different we all are from one another.

In a world where stats are used so often to guide decisions, the individual is forgotten and can be left by the wayside. If you don't fit into the target percentiles then you'll be in for a struggle.

I was watching a news item on low achievers at school - that is, not simply children with diagnosed/diagnosable learning difficulties but also those that couldn't read and/or write, didn't pass exams. Those with diagnosed conditions find it tough, it's true, but they are identified and do get some help - it's not the best but it is something. The other category, those that simply didn't or couldn't pass exams, tend to just disappear back into a life of low paid jobs (if they can find them) and limited expectations - undervalued and forgotten. All because they couldn't pass an exam and move on to the next testing ground. Society ceases to care about them (at best, considers it an unfortunate price for the greater good) and such people are left to fend for themselves, relying on good natured individuals to help them. And that's just one example, that's just within the education system. One can find examples of similar in other areas. No, society really isn't very good at identifying the needs of individuals and helping them where needed; it seems to be aimed only at those that fall within the bands that progress societies aims.

Is it any wonder that people can feel forgotten and feel there is no hope. Worse still, that the odds are stacked against them. What do you do when you (correctly) identify that there is no way it's going to get any better?

I was very moved by what you've written. Your point around the use of statistics is, I think, very close to the truth. And maybe it's the only way our large, post-industrial societies can function. There are so many people with so many varying needs, that stopping to help everyone with a special need is not, in practical terms, a viable option for the 'greater' common good. Sometimes I wish I was born in a time when people lived in smaller, segregated populations, but then that's wishful thinking and it's not like those modes of societies didn't suffer from their own horrible maladies.

If you ever want to start a conversation, I'd really like that. Take care.

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

I think modern society is honestly damaging. The equivalent of being punched in the face repeatedly and told to like it or you are abnormal.

Agreed!

The most plausible cause is genetic.

If you're up to it, would you please share why you say the most plausible cause is genetic? (Thx)

There are so many people with so many varying needs, that stopping to help everyone with a special need is not, in practical terms, a viable option for the 'greater' common good.

I agree. And this is another reason suicide ought to be permitted. It's impractical to think we could make life good enough that everyone would want to stick around.

 

[MeltingHeart]

From this article. Thanks @Tinkerthinker55 for their earlier post here on SS..

Quote from comment section expert Oppenheimer1948: "Brain inflammation and brain de-myelination are the underlying causes of suicide. With inflammation in the brain - a teen cannot shut off the disturbing intense emotions. With de-myelination in the brain - a teen suddenly loses scholastic skills and emotional self- regulation. Both of these are reversible with cheap, generic medication that must be used immediately in conjunction with a mood stabilizer for safety and an anti-depressant. De-myelination is exacerbated by industrial toxic chemicals like the pesticide chlorpyrifos. Inflammation is exacerbated by global warming, dehydration, and new viral inflammation from tropical viruses that tend to reproduce in the central nervous system."

So many experts on why people commit suicide, yet suicide rates continue to rise...

Sound like utter hogwash to me! So is this just a study or teen suicide - what about the rest of us- us oldies? Did our brains become inflamed later on ?!

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

Sound like utter hogwash to me! So is this just a study or teen suicide - what about the rest of us- us oldies? Did our brains become inflamed later on ?!

From the perspective of many researchers and society in general, doesn't seem the suffering of older people matters. They're just suppose to stay quietly and invisibly in the nursing homes and wait for death. Not at their own hands, of course... Karma's a b* when people get older and see what's waiting for them, thanks to the culture they helped create.

 

[justwhy?]

1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.


I'll just leave this here and let anyone curious enough find the rest*
*walks away, whistling

This, btw, is a joke and historically unsound, but conveys much the same:

 

[charlie_z]

1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world. The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.

That's interesting. It reminds of course work I took in college that looked at Marx and his concept of 'Alienation.' Here's an excerpt from a piece describing this concept:

"We live in a world where technological achievements unimaginable in previous societies are within our grasp: this is the age of space travel, of the internet, of genetic engineering. Yet never before have we felt so helpless in the face of the forces we ourselves have created. Never before have the fruits of our labour threatened our very existence: this is also the age of nuclear disasters, global warming, and the arms race. For the first time in history we can produce enough to satisfy the needs of everyone on the planet. Yet millions of lives are stunted by poverty and destroyed by disease. Despite our power to control the natural world, our society is dominated by insecurity, as economic recession and military conflict devastate lives with the apparently irresistible power of natural disasters. The more densely populated our cities become, the more our lives are characterized by feelings of isolation and loneliness." Judy Cox, An Introduction to Marx's Theory of Alienation.

It's a little bit beyond me, but I thought you might like looking at this since it shares many of your same ideas.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

From this article. Thanks @Tinkerthinker55 for their earlier post here on SS..

Quote from comment section expert Oppenheimer1948: "Brain inflammation and brain de-myelination are the underlying causes of suicide. With inflammation in the brain - a teen cannot shut off the disturbing intense emotions. With de-myelination in the brain - a teen suddenly loses scholastic skills and emotional self- regulation. Both of these are reversible with cheap, generic medication that must be used immediately in conjunction with a mood stabilizer for safety and an anti-depressant. De-myelination is exacerbated by industrial toxic chemicals like the pesticide chlorpyrifos. Inflammation is exacerbated by global warming, dehydration, and new viral inflammation from tropical viruses that tend to reproduce in the central nervous system."

So many experts on why people commit suicide, yet suicide rates continue to rise...

OR …. LIFE IS JUST SHITTY !!!!

You can Quote me on that

 

[justwhy?]

That's interesting. It reminds of course work I took in college that looked at Marx and his concept of 'Alienation.' Here's an excerpt from a piece describing this concept:

"We live in a world where technological achievements unimaginable in previous societies are within our grasp: this is the age of space travel, of the internet, of genetic engineering. Yet never before have we felt so helpless in the face of the forces we ourselves have created. Never before have the fruits of our labour threatened our very existence: this is also the age of nuclear disasters, global warming, and the arms race. For the first time in history we can produce enough to satisfy the needs of everyone on the planet. Yet millions of lives are stunted by poverty and destroyed by disease. Despite our power to control the natural world, our society is dominated by insecurity, as economic recession and military conflict devastate lives with the apparently irresistible power of natural disasters. The more densely populated our cities become, the more our lives are characterized by feelings of isolation and loneliness." Judy Cox, An Introduction to Marx's Theory of Alienation.

It's a little bit beyond me, but I thought you might like looking at this since it shares many of your same ideas.

The author I was quoting probably drew inspiration from Marx' Theory of Alienation, among many others.

 

[Misanthrope]

I think ultimately what passes for society is more an economic spreadsheet. The masters of which set the tone. Large numbers of people ensure alienation as we can only hold so many people in our head before they become generalised concepts. Generalised concepts are easier to denigrate or dismiss. Maths does not care either as numbers are not people and they don't scream when you move them about in bureaucratic places. Even though the consequences are felt by people who most definitely scream.

Even if a person does want to help themselves they still get treated like a number on a spreadsheet. There are often barriers to accessing things couched in various criteria to make it more palatable. So much of it comes down to the shortsighted violence of economic reasoning being placed above people. Alongside the idiocy of attempting to do more with less. Apparently, we are safer with less of a fire service and coverage as it improves efficiency. I would like a peer-reviewed paper on this magical efficiency, please?

For example, just recently a project that helped people who self injure develop better-coping strategies, closed down in my area. The clients tried to fight for it to stay open. But it was too costly apparently. Yet what will now happen is those people will potentially escalate and their behaviour will be a cost burden to the police, the paramedics, people at A&E and likely wind up in eventual hospitalisation. All probably more expensive than keeping it open. This depth of false economy is at the root of so much of this suffering.

It is not unique to people either, it applies to potholes. Where the cheapest provider and materials are then used. So when winter passes it all needs doing all over again because it was a shoddy job with poor materials. With people though, the stakes are higher than just damaged tires.

It also applies to street lamps and rape. A cost-saving is being made switching off street lamps plunging areas into absolute darkness. As if everyone only works standard hours... and isn't a nurse having to walk home at odd hours or anyone else ending work late. As a result, there has been an increase in rape, violent crime, and car accidents in those areas.

Is that cost-saving honestly worth it? People losing their innocence, winding up brutalised and not even making it home to their families?

I think not. But the powers that be disagree and that is true in so many areas. Many of those areas people on here draw attention to regularly and cite as their reason for suicide. It is all so sick and stupid to me. But it seems like it has always been this way, it was just even worse in the past. At least you are not criminalised for being suicidal these days. That is progress I guess as is the right to complain about just how shit it all feels. Then are helpfully told if you don't like it you can always move to North Korea...

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

1. The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

I'm sure you've read/heard some scientists comparing humankind to a destructive virus...

"We live in a world where technological achievements unimaginable in previous societies are within our grasp: this is the age of space travel, of the internet, of genetic engineering. Yet never before have we felt so helpless in the face of the forces we ourselves have created. Never before have the fruits of our labour threatened our very existence: this is also the age of nuclear disasters, global warming, and the arms race. For the first time in history we can produce enough to satisfy the needs of everyone on the planet. Yet millions of lives are stunted by poverty and destroyed by disease. Despite our power to control the natural world, our society is dominated by insecurity, as economic recession and military conflict devastate lives with the apparently irresistible power of natural disasters. The more densely populated our cities become, the more our lives are characterized by feelings of isolation and loneliness." Judy Cox, An Introduction to Marx's Theory of Alienation.

I agree with a lot of this. Just my two cents, but the problem is, at its root, us--the kind of animal we are. Wherever we go--including our hope to colonize space--we'll take our fundamental problems there, too. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ironweed]

For anyone hitting a paywall, this is the OP article:

Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

Outline is a free service for reading and annotating news articles. We remove the clutter so you can analyze and comment on the content.

outline.com

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

For anyone hitting a paywall, this is the OP article:

Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

Outline is a free service for reading and annotating news articles. We remove the clutter so you can analyze and comment on the content.

outline.com

Thank you...

But it seems like it has always been this way, it was just even worse in the past. At least you are not criminalised for being suicidal these days. That is progress I guess as is the right to complain about just how shit it all feels. Then are helpfully told if you don't like it you can always move to North Korea...

I agree. Life probably has always been ugly. It certainly is very ugly and very painful for most living things. If pain is self-relative and emotional pain is not less than physical pain, I can believe that despite our many technological advances and legal changes, for many it isn't better today than it might have been in the past. Either way, I think this is yet another argument in favor of self determination. If people, for whatever reasons, cannot be at least content with life after trying for a considerable while, they ought to have access to medically competent euthanasia. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Talokin]

Maybe i'm more cycnical, but I think the report said there's been an increase of 4. Per 100,00, 4 more teens kill themselves.. Is that statistically significant?

The authors of these articles/studies seems to enjoy scaring people, unnecessarily. (Warning! Your teen is going to blow their brains out!"). I'd call it ironic, but I tend to think there really are some who are actively gaslighting (the rest are incompetent).

Now, I'm wondering which is worse? Teens being killed by homicide or suicide? If I had the mental energy, I'd analyze it more, but planning one's own demise takes so much energy.

Regarding causes of suicide, anyone who gives a few single answers is missing the point. 10 people can have a stomach-ache - and there can be 10 different causes.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I mean people are brought to this world against their own will, so I think it makes since that people would want to commit suicide and for that percentage to increase over time and time again yet people don't want to listen do they? Sigh...

 

[TowerUpright]

Not that it's related much to the topic at hand, but this thread reminded me of it.

Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

- Ernest Hemmingway

 

[Moonicide]

Both of these are reversible with cheap, generic medication that must be used immediately in conjunction with a mood stabilizer for safety and an anti-depressant.

That's hilarious given the fact I am on a mood stabilizer + anti-depressant, and I am still suicidal. Medication doesn't fix everything. It isn't a cure. Especially when there are many factors that have lead you to ctb. It's only a fragment of the whole picture.

 

[LegaliseIt!]

Just my thoughts: I am past the point of looking to "experts" for "help".
If experts "helped", I wouldn't be repeating "positive affirmations" and "creating a mindfulness jar".
So far, the "help" has been "non-evidence based" bull feces.

 

[Thatdude]

From this article. Thanks @Tinkerthinker55 for their earlier post here on SS..

Quote from comment section expert Oppenheimer1948: "Brain inflammation and brain de-myelination are the underlying causes of suicide. With inflammation in the brain - a teen cannot shut off the disturbing intense emotions. With de-myelination in the brain - a teen suddenly loses scholastic skills and emotional self- regulation. Both of these are reversible with cheap, generic medication that must be used immediately in conjunction with a mood stabilizer for safety and an anti-depressant. De-myelination is exacerbated by industrial toxic chemicals like the pesticide chlorpyrifos. Inflammation is exacerbated by global warming, dehydration, and new viral inflammation from tropical viruses that tend to reproduce in the central nervous system."

So many experts on why people commit suicide, yet suicide rates continue to rise...

I haven't looked at the post, but the quote you gave shows the person didn't know what they are talking about. And to be honest, it sounded like they were talking out of their ass while trying to hit as many far left buzz words. Like blaming global warming on suicide rates.
What said far overlooks careful planing, people who see no way out of a bad situation, and other like things. I remember when I was in HS I tried to off myself at least 8 times. Some of the methods were drinking weedkiller, lighting a gas can and leaving it next to my head, trying to set a boat flare off in my mouth, and a few other things. I even went out to wild areas where I knew there was gators and snakes to get messed up. I've tried so many things that even today I have no idea why they didn't work, that I thought maybe a higher power is stopping me from dying because I have some reason to be miserable.
Anyways, I've been to multiple doctors due to my disabilities and have scans. I never said anything about trying to off myself because I'm not stupid. But at no point did any say my brain is dealing with brain inflammation and brain de-myelination.

BTW for those who were wondering. A good number of x years later, and nothing has changed. I'm thinking things didn't work simply do to it being a fluke or maybe the plan has changed. And while many would easily tell their past self how to massively improve their life so that they would be happy in the future. Outside of telling my past self to invest heavily into Bitcoin and pull out when it hits about $10k. I would tell my past self that things in fact get much worse. And I would tell myself about the night night method. In fact, if I had the ability to go into the past, I would just tell my parents to not have me.

The most direct answer is due to how society sucks and the things in world that are driving the people to suicide (financial problems, job stability, economic problems and factors, shitty human beings (they wouldn't want to admit it), and more). This is only the tip of the iceberg though. These experts are clueless to the real reasons why more people commit suicide than ever and then act surprised when more people are committing suicide. Instead of admitting that society is sick, flawed, and lots of social, economical, and environmental problems are causing people to be more inclined to want to die, they instead keep pushing suicide prevention like that would really help solve the underlying problems that cause people to want to suicide in the first place.

10000000000000% agree with this. Like I have not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 degrees. I have a background with NASA. I actually taught classes on cyber security, tech, and coding. I have done my stuff. I can tell you that it would be nice to have a job where I'm not on call, where I can get paid what I'm worth, and for there to be options in the first place. Like it would be nice to not have to move halfway across the country to work.
It's also a kick in my balls when I was told that I should study the stock market, and that the stock market gets people rich. So between 16 to 18 I studied the hell out of it. I've traded from 18 on, and I found it to be total BS. Currently I'm sitting at an easy 30% ROI, but it means shit if you have no capital to start with. Like a 10% ROI on $100 is $10. Which means you walk away with $110-taxes- fees- whatever. Looking into it, I found I would need a good quarter of a million or so to make just $25k. And because I was born in poverty, and no one died and gave me a crap ton of money. I'm pretty much screwed on that front.


But the worse thing about all of this is because all the people who told me to research things like the market, how to make a business, and so on. And the fact I actually did it. I know how good life could be if you were born in the right family, if you only knew the right people, or if you are very very very very lucky. And I know how utterly fucked I am at the same time. I mean it goes beyond the having a good job. People who has the nice life their family tends to be more stable, they can relax without worrying about paying for minor things, they have choices, many has more free time (like realistically someone in poverty has to constantly work. Like if a store is open on a holiday, then you most likely will need to work), and so on.
In short, ignorance is bliss. And these experts are stupid.

 

[OneBigBlur]

Just my thoughts: I am past the point of looking to "experts" for "help".
If experts "helped", I wouldn't be repeating "positive affirmations" and "creating a mindfulness jar".
So far, the "help" has been "non-evidence based" bull feces.

But all you have to do is breathe and be mindful of your feelings! Try slightly modifying your thoughts and denying reality by putting your head in the sand, that'll clearly help!

I think the therapists that believe that they can modify your behavior are the biggest lunatics of all. Pretending and ignoring that the bad things in your life don't exist or aren't as bad as you think they are is not helpful whatsoever. Man do these ignorant people piss me off.

 

[Talokin]

I recently heard Noam Chomsky say that the academic research into operant conditioning is actually bullshit. The conclusions are often mis-attribution errors. If you teach a bird to push pieces on chess board, the "expert" will declare "I've taught the bird to play chess!!"

no. you taught the bird to use it's beak to push random figurines.

But, mental health professsionals use these same mis-attribution errors. If the client is cutting themselves, the therapist gives them skills to stop cutting. The therapist THINKS she cured client. But, really, client is now engaging in other "unwanted" behaviors, bc the root causes have been not addressed. And.....client has learned to HIDE these behaviors from providers.

I worked in mental health for 10 years. ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES used positive affirmations and sticker charts.

I saw it help ZERO people.

But they CONTINUED to use these things. Exclusively. Even worse, clients would sincerely try to make positive affirmations work - and when it failed, clients blame themselves. This adds to their shame and hopelessness.

I saw this happen as the professional. And it happened to me as the client too.

Just my thoughts: I am past the point of looking to "experts" for "help".
If experts "helped", I wouldn't be repeating "positive affirmations" and "creating a mindfulness jar".
So far, the "help" has been "non-evidence based" bull feces.

 

[TowerUpright]

I recently heard Noam Chomsky say that the academic research into operant conditioning is actually bullshit. The conclusions are often mis-attribution errors. If you teach a bird to push pieces on chess board, the "expert" will declare "I've taught the bird to play chess!!"

no. you taught the bird to use it's beak to push random figurines.

But, mental health professsionals use these same mis-attribution errors. If the client is cutting themselves, the therapist gives them skills to stop cutting. The therapist THINKS she cured client. But, really, client is now engaging in other "unwanted" behaviors, bc the root causes have been not addressed. And.....client has learned to HIDE these behaviors from providers.

I worked in mental health for 10 years. ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES used positive affirmations and sticker charts.

I saw it help ZERO people.

But they CONTINUED to use these things. Exclusively. Even worse, clients would sincerely try to make positive affirmations work - and when it failed, clients blame themselves. This adds to their shame and hopelessness.

I saw this happen as the professional. And it happened to me as the client too.

Interesting comment. Thank you.

 

[Talokin]

I wish I had the intellectual energy to get more into this. Operant Conditioning is the foundational basis of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (and ALLLLL the derivations). This style is what's available to most people. I think there is ZERO evidence that it offers sustainable relief from emotional problems. It continues being used because....whatever....just because the people with the degrees/money do not really give a shit. (When they do, it's to assuage their own guilt - or to avoid dealing with their own emotional issues).


Cognotive Behavioral Therapy can provide help for some - but I bet those are the people who would eventually improve, regardless of the intervention.

Sorry...you didn't ask for more....but there it is...