Afterlife proof?

[Fylobatica]

I refuted that

???

 

[Fylobatica]

I love this thread. I like seeing the world burning and people in conflict while I eat popcorn and let them complain all they want.

I know, I'm despicable.

tbh it's exhausting. The stories you have told me about France are a lot better, lol

 

[6477244ts5]

???

In earlier posts I made I illustrated a possible explanation for the "evidence" that supposesdly proves consciousness is emergent. You can look at my post history. Rabid atheists and peple who use misuse science re as intellectually dishonest as religious people who say there is "proof" of a god. We don't know. End of story. Evidence can be fitted into either side. Until we have reproducable, controlled studies that validate some truth and invalidate the other theories, we don't know. Same way we know know microorganisms cause disease when before scientists said it was "vapors" etc. The discussion of consciouness and after life is far from settled no matter how many papers someone links.

 

[Fylobatica]

a possible explanation for the "evidence" that supposesdly proves consciousness is emergent

Well, if that was the case it could basically mean that I could be you could be me and everything else all at once, since it should be a limitless, boundless medium
Cool, but I don't think it works that way

 

[6477244ts5]

Well, if that was the case it could basically mean that I could be you could be me and everything else all at once, since it should be a limitless, boundless medium
Cool, but I don't think it works that way

Not sure what you are getting at if you read my explanations. Someone argued that consciousness was emergent because a damaged brain alters it. But a damaged radio alters the sound that come out of it so consciousness could be transmitted to you from somewhere.Consciousness could be a quantum phenomenon. There are plausible options other than "it's a biological process entirely created by the brain and once the brain is gone so is that consciousness." People who don't understand what science is....a process that seeks to explain not a gathering of all present info and a hard declaration without all the needed info...always use evidence to fit into their beliefs rather than the other way around as they claim.

 

[Fylobatica]

Not sure what you are getting at if you read my explanations. Someone argued that consciousness was emergent because a damaged brain alters it. But a damaged radio alters the sound that come out of it so consciousness could be transmitted to you from somewhere

I think it was said because the brain has specific "loci" and an interconnection between lobes that cause consciousness to be generated, not to be received.

 

[6477244ts5]

I think it was said because the brain has specific "loci" and an interconnection between lobes that cause consciousness to be generated, not to be received.

Again there is no proof it is generated. I am not sure why people are so intent on declaring this solved. That's not science. That's belief. People are taking theories based on an incomplete understanding (I mean humanity's incomplete understanding) of neurological function and declaring them facts. To me its arrogant and as ridiculous as the other end of the spectrum and religion. We know bacteria can cause infection and its not "vapors" or "demons". We don't know where consciousness comes from and are still in the vapor and demon stage as a species.

 

[Fylobatica]

Again there is no proof it is generated

I remember that somebody brought in the actual empirical study, the specific brain areas were isolated and further studies will need to be done in order to consolidate the findings. There are 2/3 threads about this, maybe the actual research (it was from PNAS) was scattered in one of them.

However the spectrum on which brain waves operate is extremely thin, I sincerely doubt that 11 Hz radio waves from Theta Centauri could make their cruise to the Earth and then being received by each of our brains in a smooth way...

Anyway, I don't think that this discussion will go anywhere, since I'm waiting for more consistent proof. So I have to say bye as well

 

[6477244ts5]

I didn't say radio waves from some alien civilization. In my "theory" (which I don't believe...am just putting up as another option) the transmission is quantum. It's not operating on an EM channel someone can just tune into. There have been studies as well showing there are quantum sensitive tubules in neurons (don't have them saved and those are not "proof" either). All I am saying...repeatedlty...is "we don't know". And I get aggravated seeing people claim it's an answered question. People are so unwilling to say "we don't know" so much of the time. But in any thread about "afterlife" or "consciousness" most answers are it's A for a fact or it's B for a fact and that's that...not much "nobody knows" which is the only true answer.

 

[Smilla]

Need I point this out further? It's not your place to instill doubts, or to help people dispel anything. All the "clues" you've gathered to another road are just as interpretable as any other work of fiction. It's irrelevant whether you see dignity or not. This is not about you. It's about everyone's freedom to believe what they will, and to freely declare those beliefs, and to not be attacked or called out for having them.

There is nothing as puzzling and as needlessly arrogant as modern day militant scientism.

What is more needlessly arrogant and puzzling are religious fanatics who impose their beliefs on others, especially the Catholic Church who have caused millions to needlessly suffer over the centuries. Recall Galileo? The Crusades? The rape of children and subsequent coverup? Turning a blind eye to the Holocaust.

I know this isn't a debate about organized religion per se but I don't understand what is so objectionable about scientism.

I've yet to hear of scientists imprisoning people or murdering them because they don't believe in a particular hypothesis.

The OP was asking about proof of an afterlife, not about "beliefs", so it's common sense to explain to her that there is no proof whatsoever and let her decide for herself what to do with the utter lack of evidence for God, an afterlife, fairies, unicorns and the like.

 

[6477244ts5]

What is more needlessly arrogant and puzzling are religious fanatics who impose their beliefs on others, especially the Catholic Church who has caused millions to needlessly suffer over the centuries. Recall Galileo? The Crusades? The rape of children and subsequent coverup?

I know this isn't a debate about organized religion per se but I don't understand what is so objectionable about scientism.

I've yet to hear of scientists imprisoning people or murdering them because they don't believe in a particular hypothesis.

Yeah that sucks but its not the point here in our context. Trying to convince people considering ending their lives that there is provably nothing because you might believe that is arrogant and cruel. I remember watching "The Grey" and there is a scene after the plane crashes where a guy is bleeding to death and asks if he is ok. Liam Neeson coldly tells him something like "You are going to die. Your blood will all drain out and your heart will stop. It will be painful" and I remember seeing people praise how "honest" and "direct" this character was. But what they missed is the dying guy freaked the fuck out. This didn't help him. Nobody is going to come to some 'acceptance" moments before death about such a question as existence an the only humane thing to do is COMFORT them. Lie...tell them they are gonna be fine...tell them it's all ok. THAT'S what a compassionate and kind person does...eases the suffering rather than trying to make it all about them and "educate" someone facing the end.

 

[Lisa]

Not sure what you are getting at if you read my explanations. Someone argued that consciousness was emergent because a damaged brain alters it. But a damaged radio alters the sound that come out of it so consciousness could be transmitted to you from somewhere.Consciousness could be a quantum phenomenon. There are plausible options other than "it's a biological process entirely created by the brain and once the brain is gone so is that consciousness." People who don't understand what science is....a process that seeks to explain not a gathering of all present info and a hard declaration without all the needed info...always use evidence to fit into their beliefs rather than the other way around as they claim.

Perfect

 

[Lisa]

I think it was said because the brain has specific "loci" and an interconnection between lobes that cause consciousness to be generated, not to be received.

That's only a theory

Just like everything else you and KCN are posting. Only theories.

Theories that are no longer viable with the modern day scientific evidence.

The rest of us here, including most scientists today, aren't claiming to "know" or have scientific proof that proves or disproves an afterlife definitively.

Get over it

 

[Lisa]

I didn't say radio waves from some alien civilization. In my "theory" (which I don't believe...am just putting up as another option) the transmission is quantum. It's not operating on an EM channel someone can just tune into. There have been studies as well showing there are quantum sensitive tubules in neurons (don't have them saved and those are not "proof" either). All I am saying...repeatedlty...is "we don't know". And I get aggravated seeing people claim it's an answered question. People are so unwilling to say "we don't know" so much of the time. But in any thread about "afterlife" or "consciousness" most answers are it's A for a fact or it's B for a fact and that's that...not much "nobody knows" which is the only true answer.

Exactly

 

[6477244ts5]

That's because KCN and Fylobatica are clearly not logical nor scientific in their deductions or reasoning patterns. They allow their belief systems to override the scientific process. And that's ok. But they should stop shoving it down our throats. If they can't understand that there is no definitive proof in either direction, then there is something clearly wrong with the way their brains process information. And there is nothing that can be said or written here that can change that.

Eh I don't like direct insults and all behavior can be explained without it being some defect in their brain..it's all emotional in us animals. Even me replying to such topics is emotional as I get upset at the behavior so common where people try and convince others of a belief for their own comfort and benefit and not considering how it affects the person they are talking to. I don't believe for a second there is some Abrahamic God and Bible-like reality out there (its possible I just think it is silly but maybe Im the fool) but I would not argue with someone on their death bed or in our shoes to show them how "wrong" I think they are for believing that. I see lots of militants on both sides but not as much agnosticism which feels like the only reasonable ground on this topic. I get why...it feels better to be "in control" if even in our own minds. It's still frustrating.

 

[Lisa]

Eh I don't like direct insults and all behavior can be explained without it being some defect in their brain..it's all emotional in us animals. Even me replying to such topics is emotional as I get upset at the behavior so common where people try and convince others of a belief for their own comfort and benefit and not considering how it affects the person they are talking to. I don't believe for a second there is some Abrahamic God and Bible-like reality out there (its possible I just think it is silly but maybe Im the fool) but I would not argue with someone on their death bed or in our shoes to show them how "wrong" I think they are for believing that. I see lots of militants on both sides but not as much agnosticism which feels like the only reasonable ground on this topic. I get why...it feels better to be "in control" if even in our own minds. It's still frustrating.

You're right
I'm going to delete what I posted

 

[Fylobatica]

That's only a theory

Just like everything else you and KCN are posting. Only theories.

Theories that are no longer viable with the modern day scientific evidence.

The rest of us here, including most scientists today, aren't claiming to "know" or have scientific proof that proves or disproves an afterlife definitively.

Get over it

For the billionth time, these are not theories.

There's an empirical background.

https://pnas.org/content/early/2013/08/08/1308285110.full.pdf

And that's from 2013, things have evolved further in neurophysical research and are giving substantial proof that consciousness can be explained considering the whole physical functions of the brain

 

[Fylobatica]

I didn't say radio waves from some alien civilization. In my "theory" (which I don't believe...am just putting up as another option) the transmission is quantum. It's not operating on an EM channel someone can just tune into. There have been studies as well showing there are quantum sensitive tubules in neurons (don't have them saved and those are not "proof" either). All I am saying...repeatedlty...is "we don't know". And I get aggravated seeing people claim it's an answered question. People are so unwilling to say "we don't know" so much of the time. But in any thread about "afterlife" or "consciousness" most answers are it's A for a fact or it's B for a fact and that's that...not much "nobody knows" which is the only true answer.

Heard about that theory as well, but Max Tegmark disproved it, brain processes are far too slow for quantum decoherence to take place

Also, as we stated before, debate in this thread is rather useless since as you can see people are *eager* to protect their wishes rather than being intellectually honest. See ya

 

[Fylobatica]

Also, Lisa, you said "That's because KCN and Fylobatica are clearly not logical nor scientific in their deductions or reasoning patterns. They allow their belief systems to override the scientific process." Then you deleted your comment.

I'm rather speechless, because both KCN and I were the only ones who actually tried to reason about this subject without falling for easy logical fallacies. What I saw from you were just words like "exactly" and "I agree", and similar nods to people who sustained unscientific point of views just throwing random words like "I believe that [insert subjective theory]", "Radio waves",etc. etc.

Please don't insult others attributing to them "a lack of evidence", where they have given plenty to show that it's way more than likely that what's in the brain stays in the brain.

 

[6477244ts5]

Heard about that theory as well, but Max Tegmark disproved it, brain processes are far too slow for quantum decoherence to take place

Also, as we stated before, debate in this thread is rather useless since as you can see people are *eager* to protect their wishes rather than being intellectually honest. See ya

Sigh....all the "proof" you keep claiming is not proof. You also keep saying "its worthless because you people are all wrong BYE!" which is childish.

 

[Fylobatica]

Sigh....all the "proof" you keep claiming is not proof. You also keep saying "its worthless because you people are all wrong BYE!" which is childish.

do you even know about quantum decoherence before telling me that is no "proof", and in the way you put your theory on display it has no chance to sustain your hypothesis?

I'm telling "bye" because nobody wants to have a useful discussion, it's just a random throw up of "I wish" not backed up by any sources. You get tired in the end

 

[6477244ts5]

do you even know about quantum decoherence before telling me that is no "proof", and in the way you put your theory on display it has no chance to sustain your hypothesis?

I'm telling "bye" because nobody wants to have a useful discussion, it's just a random throw up of "I wish" not backed up by any sources.

None of your claims are backed up by proof. You are taking partial evidences from one theory and trying to sound smart. You aren't interested in a useful discussion. You are interesting in signalling how smart you are and doing so at the expense of people who posted looking for hope. Your theory is one possibility. It's not proven. nor is God or aliens or whatever origin. Nobody knows. I know it's scary to think that but I think it's selfish and mean to try and beat it into people that there is nothing because you BELIEVE consciousness is emergent. You can keep citing evidence all day it doesn't make your theory fact and shows you care more about being right than anything else.

 

[KCN]

do you even know about quantum decoherence before telling me that is no "proof", and in the way you put your theory on display it has no chance to sustain your hypothesis?

I'm telling "bye" because nobody wants to have a useful discussion, it's just a random throw up of "I wish" not backed up by any sources. You get tired in the end

trolls are gonna be trolls. Just say them goodbye

 

[6477244ts5]

Decide for yourself what is more important. Feeling smart and like you won...or considering other people's worries and fears even if that means admitting you don't know everything. Simple choice.

 

[Fylobatica]

None of your claims are backed up by proof

Seriously man, just stop.
You are addressing to me and other users your own faults. If empirical evidence, as suggested from the PNAS paper that shown that consciousness is linked to the brain and before taking into account any other hypothesis they should be studied better, isn't enough, I don't know what would.

Quantum decoherence cannot be also viewed as an explanation of "signals from everywhere" because our brain is too slow to catch up with that. What else can be said other than "study Physics".

..or considering other people's worries and fears

There's no place for that, we're debating about the truth. People should be adult enough to know that life is not a fairytale and what they believe in might not be true at all.

However, considering the amount of personal attacks, you can have it your way

 

[Smilla]

Yeah that sucks but its not the point here in our context. Trying to convince people considering ending their lives that there is provably nothing because you might believe that is arrogant and cruel. I remember watching "The Grey" and there is a scene after the plane crashes where a guy is bleeding to death and asks if he is ok. Liam Neeson coldly tells him something like "You are going to die. Your blood will all drain out and your heart will stop. It will be painful" and I remember seeing people praise how "honest" and "direct" this character was. But what they missed is the dying guy freaked the fuck out. This didn't help him. Nobody is going to come to some 'acceptance" moments before death about such a question as existence an the only humane thing to do is COMFORT them. Lie...tell them they are gonna be fine...tell them it's all ok. THAT'S what a compassionate and kind person does...eases the suffering rather than trying to make it all about them and "educate" someone facing the end.

None of your claims are backed up by proof. You are taking partial evidences from one theory and trying to sound smart. You aren't interested in a useful discussion. You are interesting in signalling how smart you are and doing so at the expense of people who posted looking for hope. Your theory is one possibility. It's not proven. nor is God or aliens or whatever origin. Nobody knows. I know it's scary to think that but I think it's selfish and mean to try and beat it into people that there is nothing because you BELIEVE consciousness is emergent. You can keep citing evidence all day it doesn't make your theory fact and shows you care more about being right than anything else.

I disagree. If the OP wants to find spiritual comfort there are plenty of resources for her. She asked about "proof" of an afterlife which is a silly question in and of itself.

Sorry but she was asking for "logical" and "rational" input merely by posting the question and received the same—logical and rational answers. Perhaps she should consult a Priest or a Shaman or whatever instead of asking members of this forum.

I'm not sure how this is cruel or uncompassionate.

 

[6477244ts5]

Have it your way guys...you are geniuses and know everything and there is nothing and it's proven and we should all despair. Sad that even in the end people need to be like this to each other whilst playing the victim themselves. Carry on with the "truth" and teach us all wise ones.

 

[6477244ts5]

After all the important thing is that we all know YOU are right. Selfish until the end.

 

[Fylobatica]

Have it your way guys...you are geniuses and know everything and there is nothing and it's proven and we should all despair. Sad that even in the end people need to be like this to each other whilst playing the victim themselves. Carry on with the "truth" and teach us all wise ones.

Trolls that tell others that they're "victim blaming" others, like me, KCN or Smilla.

Just speechless.

 

[saffron]

Nihilism and atheism were both tailored specifically for children.