Accepting futility?

[Arrow]

(I'm just kind of spit balling here. This post may not come off as super coherent.)
Sometimes I wonder if a drastic change in expectations would be a solution to our problems. Part of the frustration/suffering we deal with might really just be related to thinking our lives are supposed to be significantly better in some way than they are right now.

But imagine, if you will, we didn't believe that our lives are meant to be much better, or that are problems are things that shouldn't exist. In a sense, I'm saying, what if we just changed our perspective on what our lives are supposed to be, and how they are supposed to be different? If we pulled the goal way closer and accepted the futility that there is in changing certain things, we might actually feel a lot better.

This is not to say that we should give up, or that giving up is good. I'm saying that if we looked at life in more of a "it's fine if things are this way," and we viewed problems like this, it might be easier to move around them or deal with their existence (if they are unchangeable).

Something bad recently happened to me, and at first it made me feel really bad (it still kind of makes me feel bad), but something that helped was accepting that it happened, that's how it is, maybe it won't get better, but it's fine because I need to keep trudging on forwards anyways because what the hell else am I supposed to do? And thinking that way about it made me feel less bad. I've been thinking like this in other situations as well, and in a sense I'm giving myself more agency in deciding just how bad bad things in life are.

So what do you guys think? Is accepting futility in this way a good idea? Can changing expectations of life serve as a good solution or will some problems always seem too problematic? Have any of you already tried viewing life in this way, and if you did how'd it go?

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

So what do you guys think? Is accepting futility in this way a good idea? Can changing expectations of life serve as a good solution or will some problems always seem too problematic? Have any of you already tried viewing life in this way, and if you did how'd it go?

Accepting futility is a good way to cope with life, and even something that many therapists recommend. It has made it easier for me to continue living for the time being, but not sure if it will ultimately prevent me from ctb as the same problems will always be there (thinking about them differently doesn't make them go away)

 

[Umbrella Weather]

Can changing expectations of life serve as a good solution or will some problems always seem too problematic? Have any of you already tried viewing life in this way, and if you did how'd it go?

It would seem that this all would be a responsible, reasonable, rational way to 'buck up' and 'pull yourself together' because 'this is the way things are'.

The problem is... This is the wrong place for that mindset.

 

[Arrow]

not sure if it will ultimately prevent me from ctb as the same problems will always be there (thinking about them differently doesn't make them go away

i get what you mean, as this futility method hasn't completely eliminated my ctb considerations

but the end of this quote is interesting because, philosophically, what is a problem that you don't think of as a problem? my theory would be that if we could master the futility way of thinking then any existing problem could be lessened to a point of acceptability/it's not a big deal anymore.

not that thinking this way is easy or anything, it can be difficult or maybe impossible to master fully.

It would seem that this all would be a responsible, reasonable, rational way to 'buck up' and 'pull yourself together' because 'this is the way things are'.

The problem is... This is the wrong place for that mindset.

you're not entirely wrong about this being similar to a "pull yourself together" type of idea, or an idea that falls close to that.

but i disagree that this is a place that can't consider that type of approach. to be fair, i made sure to put this thread in recovery, because i knew it would be out of place in the other sub forums.

and i think that recovery in and of itself requires a form of this thinking. not that it is easy to just buck up and accept whatever, but sometimes there's nothing else to do.

 

[Umbrella Weather]

but sometimes there's nothing else to do.

Precisely.

 

[whatevs]

I think you are onto something. This seems useful, as I too have semi-achieved a better state of mind with stoicism or trying to consciously warp my standards and expectations.

Summarized is: accepting what cannot be changed, or what can likely not be changed and really hammering into your head that this world is some kind of purgatory and horrible things are not exceptions but what it produces naturally.

 

[Arrow]

I think you are onto something. This seems useful, as I too have semi-achieved a better state of mind with stoicism or trying to consciously warp my standards and expectations.

Summarized is: accepting what cannot be changed, or what can likely not be changed and really hammering into your head that this world is some kind of purgatory and horrible things are not exceptions but what it produces naturally.

cool to see you also found this type of expectation changing useful.
it's helped me to look around and go, "yeah, (x thing that is happening) is pretty shit, and it probably won't get better, but that's just how it works, so whatever."
might not be a permanent fix but it has helped me realize that perception is very powerful.

 

[whatevs]

cool to see you also found this type of expectation changing useful.
it's helped me to look around and go, "yeah, (x thing that is happening) is pretty shit, and it probably won't get better, but that's just how it works, so whatever."
might not be a permanent fix but it has helped me realize that perception is very powerful.

What worked for me, not much eh, I'm miserable still but I found it compelling, is imagining the life of other people. Persons that will never be interested in the stuff I look into, or will never even see the things I can see.

All those pathologically pessimistic perceptions, morbid inertia, or heightened sensitivity. That doesn't exist in their world. Even when they see what I do, they accept it and move on. They've told me so directly too. Their lives are as real as mine, even if deceived or blind in some respects, and if they are happier, why can't I imagine myself having a different perception, something more like what they have?

But I find there a wall. Can a person really change? And if that's possible, do I want to forfeit who I am?

I think we can actually change, though. I let go of something that used to stress me greatly just because I figured out that if nobody was doing anything about it I didn't need to ruminate on it or be enraged. This approach though, leaves a tinge of sadness in me. The old idea of becoming jaded and the opposite of idealistic.

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

From my childhood, I have been told endlessly that life is unfair, that work is hard and that I just need to recognize that things rarely work out in one's best interests.

It was a terrible way to grow up, but it really helped shape my view as an adult.

I was also once told that if I stopped trying to make the world live up to my expectations and learned to lower my expectations to the way the world was, that I'd have lots more energy to spend on better pursuits. I hated hearing that at the time, but it's funny that 30+ years later, I still remember it often. She was right, btw.

Happy, positive people often reword this idea as part of a life philosophy: life isn't having what you love, but loving what you have. Put that way, it sounds saccharine and stupid.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

but the end of this quote is interesting because, philosophically, what is a problem that you don't think of as a problem? my theory would be that if we could master the futility way of thinking then any existing problem could be lessened to a point of acceptability/it's not a big deal anymore.

not that thinking this way is easy or anything, it can be difficult or maybe impossible to master fully.

What you're describing here sounds a bit to me like the Buddhist ideal of eliminating desire as desire is the root of suffering. Unmet needs are the root of suffering.

Without desire I feel like we might as well be dead anyhow. Aren't needs and desires what make us human, and their fulfillment what makes life worth living? Without that, what else is there?

 

[motel rooms]

What you're describing here sounds a bit to me like the Buddhist ideal of eliminating desire as desire is the root of suffering. Unmet needs are the root of suffering.

Without desire I feel like we might as well be dead anyhow. Aren't needs and desires what make us human, and their fulfillment what makes life worth living?

Don't be so logical, that's bad for mental health!

Without that, what else is there?

A pie in the sky called nirvana. Mmm, sky pie...

 

[angelus]

(I'm just kind of spit balling here. This post may not come off as super coherent.)
Sometimes I wonder if a drastic change in expectations would be a solution to our problems. Part of the frustration/suffering we deal with might really just be related to thinking our lives are supposed to be significantly better in some way than they are right now.

But imagine, if you will, we didn't believe that our lives are meant to be much better, or that are problems are things that shouldn't exist. In a sense, I'm saying, what if we just changed our perspective on what our lives are supposed to be, and how they are supposed to be different? If we pulled the goal way closer and accepted the futility that there is in changing certain things, we might actually feel a lot better.

This is not to say that we should give up, or that giving up is good. I'm saying that if we looked at life in more of a "it's fine if things are this way," and we viewed problems like this, it might be easier to move around them or deal with their existence (if they are unchangeable).

Something bad recently happened to me, and at first it made me feel really bad (it still kind of makes me feel bad), but something that helped was accepting that it happened, that's how it is, maybe it won't get better, but it's fine because I need to keep trudging on forwards anyways because what the hell else am I supposed to do? And thinking that way about it made me feel less bad. I've been thinking like this in other situations as well, and in a sense I'm giving myself more agency in deciding just how bad bad things in life are.

So what do you guys think? Is accepting futility in this way a good idea? Can changing expectations of life serve as a good solution or will some problems always seem too problematic? Have any of you already tried viewing life in this way, and if you did how'd it go?

Changing expectations in life, to be more precise LOWERING expectations, is the best way to improve how you feel about it.
It is very good.
But the point is that it depends on each individual's mood and view on life.
In essence, when futility of life is realised, which is, that it has no inherent meaning, and at the same time you're down and you have no meaning or purpose of your own to give yourself, then no, I think the futility of life cannot be accepted.
Living a futile life can be extremely frustrating, disappointing, depressing, painful, so that death itself becomes your life purpose and the only way out of pain.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

@motel rooms checks out

 

[Arrow]

Without desire I feel like we might as well be dead anyhow. Aren't needs and desires what make us human, and their fulfillment what makes life worth living? Without that, what else is there?

i don't agree with eliminating desire, so i'm not sure. you could desire things while accepting the futility in trying to improve certain other things.

Changing expectations in life, to be more precise LOWERING expectations, is the best way to improve how you feel about it.
It is very good.
But the point is that it depends on each individual's mood and view on life.
In essence, when futility of life is realised, which is, that it has no inherent meaning, and at the same time you're down and you have no meaning or purpose of your own to give yourself, then no, I think the futility of life cannot be accepted.
Living a futile life can be extremely frustrating, disappointing, depressing, painful, so that death itself becomes your life purpose and the only way out of pain.

i thought about your post here's the idea i've come up with:

i think futility is only frustrating or depressing when you expect that you're supposed to have something more, or that things are supposed to be better for whatever reason. if you truly believe that certain problems of life are inevitable and unfixable, and that it is fine that this futility exists, and that these problems may be overarching such that they take up a lot of your life, then the futility won't seem so bad after all. a "this is how life is, and it doesn't really matter because there are still things worth having/working towards" kind of outlook. if you feel deeply that life shouldn't be as bad as it is, then it being bad will be very problematic for you.

 

[motel rooms]

a "this is how life is, and it doesn't really matter because there are still things worth having/working towards" kind of outlook.

But futility is "the fact of having no effect or of achieving nothing, a total lack of purpose or usefulness". If you still believe there's something worth having/working towards/achieving, then you don't believe that everything is futile... Just lower your expectations, that's what becoming a grownup is all about. Lots of perfectly normal young adults in the West are miserable because nobody has taught them anything about the real world & they have childishly high hopes/expectations.

 

[GentleJerk]

I personally relate to what you are saying OP, I too have had several bad things happen in my life and the futility of trying to change things and failing to fix these problems was causing a lot of additional stress. I was panicking nearly every second of the day and stuck in a loop of trying to problem-solve my way out of these hopeless situations.

I think the stress is a natural response, a part of the drive that we as humans have to finding solutions to things and solving problems. But if there truly is no solution that we can find and apply, failing to accept the situation could just mean more heartache.

On one hand even though the problems remain and continue to get worse, after accepting that I cannot fix them, I am somewhat more at peace and I no longer spend nearly every second of the day battling in futility. On the other, the moment that I accepted there was no cures or solutions to these problems, and stopped fighting to fix them, was the same time that I decided I might need to commit suicide.

 

[whatevs]

What you're describing here sounds a bit to me like the Buddhist ideal of eliminating desire as desire is the root of suffering. Unmet needs are the root of suffering.

Without desire I feel like we might as well be dead anyhow. Aren't needs and desires what make us human, and their fulfillment what makes life worth living? Without that, what else is there?

Yes, this is because Stoicism was like an intermediate step between mindless vitalism and mortalist or nihilist paths such as Buddhism. And yes, the Buddhist idea is to die, but with the right mindset. They rightfully disregard life and its very expensive pleasures and concentrate in eliminating the root of suffering, which is the will to live.

 

[Forever Dead]

Accepting futility has brought me peace.

 

[Siterfau]

You might be interested in Albert Camus and Absurdism, if you haven't heard of him already.

Something bad recently happened to me, and at first it made me feel really bad (it still kind of makes me feel bad), but something that helped was accepting that it happened, that's how it is, maybe it won't get better, but it's fine because I need to keep trudging on forwards anyways because what the hell else am I supposed to do?

It helps, and the comparison to Stoicism is apt because from my understanding, this is how you're supposed to do it.

However, I find that much of my problem lies in convincing myself that "trudging on" is worth it to begin with, and this unfortunately doesn't really help with that.

 

[Tortured_empath]

I think you make a good point. But it's not as simple.

 

[june]

I am worried that sometimes you do too much damage and cannot recover