Abortion is legal. Why not suicide?

[Sleeper System]

Let's talk about it. What is the difference? What argument do you make for each side?

I'm pro-life. Not because I'm against murder or because I think that victims of sexual assault should be forced to carry their assailants child... but because the current laws do not represent my male prospective and rights as a 50% contributor to the process of procreation. If men have no choice in the matter than equality dictates that neither should the women. Thus, let the child live and let the seed and womb work it out with the tools that are provided.

That being said, I'm also pro suicide. The difference for me is the awareness, understanding, and acceptance of the act as it pertains not only to me but to those who will be potentially effected. Exceptional cases aside, once you are self aware and reach a certain level of common sense, it should be your choice.

The governments agenda in the matter is easy to understand. Suicide has a negative psychological impact on the masses.
It also decreases worker ants for the labor force of society.
The implications of individuals having the ability to casually opt out of responsibility is another downside.
That's also true with abortion. Many parallels to draw from.

My thing is... we are so intelligent. Why can't we come up with a way to allow it find an even compromise that we all can live with?

I guess what I'm leading to is...
What do you think?
And do you have any laws or rules you would innact to make this a viable option in todays society?

 

[ScissorYoda]

I'd argue that a male is less than 50% contributor to the act of procreation, since he can simply dump his seed and move on, as little as 1 minute for him, but 9 months of carrying an embryo for her. I think ideally the man and woman would be in a good relationship and talk through the decision but ultimately it ought to be the woman's choice. I am pro choice, for both abortion and suicide.

I think it would be great to have an easy, painless accessible route to suicide for adults, but I don't think the decision should be taken lightly, I don't think it should be available to people acting impulsively, but I do think it should be available without for example requiring that the person is terminally ill.

 

[Sleeper System]

I'd argue that a male is less than 50% contributor to the act of procreation, since he can simply dump his seed and move on, as little as 1 minute for him, but 9 months of carrying an embryo for her. I think ideally the man and woman would be in a good relationship and talk through the decision but ultimately it ought to be the woman's choice. I am pro choice, for both abortion and suicide.

I think it would be great to have an easy, painless accessible route to suicide for adults, but I don't think the decision should be taken lightly, I don't think it should be available to people acting impulsively, but I do think it should be available without for example requiring that the person is terminally ill.

 

[Shadowlord900]

I dunno how early abortion was a thing, but it wouldn't surprise me if the idea of suicide was about long before the idea of abortion. And of course, many religions that ruled the Earth during days of old forbade suicide because it would make their religion look bad if they let it happen. If abortion was indeed a newer concept, it would have more likely have been seen from a fresher, more developed perspective not clouded by a religion's selfish views.

 

[RichardFirst]

I think that euthanasia will, eventually, be accepted akin to abortion. We're already seeing this in a few countries in the West. I live in Ireland, and it is likely to be permitted for terminally ill persons within the next few years, and once that rubicon is crossed, likely the scope will increase.

Abortions happened long before it became legal, but they were dangerous and unreliable. Suicide happens all the time, and just like illegal abortions, the methods available are often defective and harmful in the sense that they main rather than kill the person in question.

What is common here is that regardless of the moral misgivings that one may have, some people will want to end their life as sure as some would want an abortion. If they cannot do so legally, they will try to do it illegally. To me, it seems best to allow this to be done in a reliable manner and leave the decision to the individual. Abortion is not a nice thing, and neither is suicide, but they happen and that's just how it is.

 

[Sleeper System]

I'd argue that a male is less than 50% contributor to the act of procreation, since he can simply dump his seed and move on, as little as 1 minute for him, but 9 months of carrying an embryo for her. I think ideally the man and woman would be in a good relationship and talk through the decision but ultimately it ought to be the woman's choice. I am pro choice, for both abortion and suicide.

I think it would be great to have an easy, painless accessible route to suicide for adults, but I don't think the decision should be taken lightly, I don't think it should be available to people acting impulsively, but I do think it should be available without for example requiring that the person is terminally ill.

I dont think the time it takes to get a women pregnant and the time it takes to actually conceive the child is a sound bases for disavowing a male of his contribution because after the birth, the "burden" of taking care (financially) of that child rests solely on the male in most cases. Thus, a 9 month term for a women (which I do not deny is painful and bares real risks) is small compared to an 18 year commitment to working yourself to death to abide laws that disadvantage you most unfairly. Men need to have an equal say in the choice or remove the choice altogether. That's just me.

I feel like if you decide to CTB as an adult then you need to find some way to offset the impact on society. I'm just brain storming here but what does the world lose in terms of one individual life. We need to quantify the potential some how and balance it.

 

[lonelyandsad]

Fetuses and embryos are not people.

 

[Tesha]

I dont think the time it takes to get a women pregnant and the time it takes to actually conceive the child is a sound bases for disavowing a male of his contribution because after the birth, the "burden" of taking care (financially) of that child rests solely on the male in most cases. Thus, a 9 month term for a women (which I do not deny is painful and bares real risks) is small compared to an 18 year commitment to working yourself to death to abide laws that disadvantage you most unfairly. Men need to have an equal say in the choice or remove the choice altogether. That's just me.

I feel like if you decide to CTB as an adult then you need to find some way to offset the impact on society. I'm just brain storming here but what does the world lose in terms of one individual life. We need to quantify the potential some how and balance it.

A man does not carry any of the real risk of dying during the pregnancy and the birth - I wouldn't call that a small risk. A man doesn't have the hormonal, mental or physical changes that happen to a woman when pregnant. I'm not even going to touch on rape, other abuse, men that walk away; and as for your comment on the men having to pay for 18 years…. to me that's an outdated and offensive stance to take. I'm talking here as a gay woman, who had children with my ex wife. But if paying towards the upkeep burdens you or you're unable to accept that women have autonomy over their own bodies, then keep your dick in your pants. Problem solved.

Sorry if I'm coming across as too strong, but as someone who has been abused, I think it's very important that individuals have complete control of their own body. Just as I believe any adult with capacity should have control over whether they live or die.

And just as a point of clarity, I agree with what lonelyandsad said.

 

[coolintheshade]

Republican in the US are clamping down on abortion

 

[SadJessu]

I dont think the time it takes to get a women pregnant and the time it takes to actually conceive the child is a sound bases for disavowing a male of his contribution because after the birth, the "burden" of taking care (financially) of that child rests solely on the male in most cases. Thus, a 9 month term for a women (which I do not deny is painful and bares real risks) is small compared to an 18 year commitment to working yourself to death to abide laws that disadvantage you most unfairly. Men need to have an equal say in the choice or remove the choice altogether. That's just me.

I feel like if you decide to CTB as an adult then you need to find some way to offset the impact on society. I'm just brain storming here but what does the world lose in terms of one individual life. We need to quantify the potential some how and balance it.

I'm pro-life and I agree that men should definitely have a say in whether their child is aborted, however, men do not share the same burden of child rearing as women do. In today's society child rearing still falls overwhelmingly on the backs of women, men who get women pregnant should financially contribute, because caring for an infant around the clock isn't fun, and it's nearly impossible to work whilst doing so. A man can walk away, but the woman will be responsible for caring for this child until it's an adult. Sure there's child support, but many, many men don't bother paying it. My husband, for example, could up and return to the UK and evade child support if he decided that he wanted another life. I'll always be stuck with our kid. Then there's the societal stigma of being a single mother, single dads are way more likely to find a partner to help raise the kid if the mum bails, the women on the other hand are often viewed as used goods, many surveys of the dating world have exemplified this. After giving birth myself, I promise you, your body and brain are permanently changed, there's often damage done that is irreversible. And I don't mean stretch marks, in my case I tore badly during birth, I'm in pain constantly, and it's up in the air as to whether or not that is going to be a permanent thing for the rest of my life. That's not small, that's waiting to see if sex will ever be pleasurable again, or if my husband would even want to do that with me in the aftermath, that's waiting to see if urinating will ever stop hurting, if I can squat down to pick something up without wanting to cry out in pain, I worry about if I can please my husband, because I know if he left I'd be impossibly over my head, and I'm financially secure own my own, I still need him. It's not small.

Do I think abortion is wrong? Yes. Do I think that men should have a say in it? Definitely. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking pregnancy and child rearing is some 50/50 effort, I can attest that it's certainly not.

 

[Looking]

I find it fascinating that there's "pro-lifers" (in the abortion sense) on this forum. I know we're a very diverse group, that comes from many backgrounds and ideas, but the concept that people who think people should have the bodily autonomy to end one's life disagrees with the concept of bodily autonomy in the abortion sense - I just can't help but find that fascinating.

Let's ignore the concept of "Well, the fetus isn't alive until X weeks" or anything similar; I'm sure if you're pro-life, you've heard that argument to death. With that being said, that child has to use the body of another human being to survive. You can choose to be an organ donor, you can choose to donate your body to science or to donate blood. You can choose what surgeries or treatments you get. Whether or not you take vaccines. And so on. However, you can't choose what happens to your body when you carry a child - and an inability to decide whether or not you have a child to begin with, in my opinion, is a medical mistake. It goes against what a lot of this forum stands for of "You can choose what happens to you and your body, in life or in death."

If you wanted to be connected to a machine to help another human survive; that should be your choice. In the same way you should have a choice if that human being is inside of you.

I'm actually not for or against the concept of antinatalism - a lot of people on this forum has that philosophical position. So I have no stance whether or not people should or shouldn't have children. I guess I'm just shocked by the concept of bodily autonomy in some cases, but not others, when it comes to the existence of life on this forum.

So to answer your question in the title: Both should be legal. Abortion and suicide. For the exact same reasons. Both services should be provided in a medical context, or not, for the sake of the individual's life and body. Freedom of choice, baby!

I'm actually not here to debate the ethics or morals of abortions - So if you quote respond to me in regards of my stance stated above, I'm not sure I'm going to respond. My below stances though, I'd be more open to discussion!

The idea that child birth is a 50/50 effort, or even the creation of children is 50/50, is an actual joke. If your question of "Abortion is legal, why not suicide?" hinges on the concept that those choices are 50/50, then I got some bad news for you.

Should a husband have a right to choose if his wife has a right to end her life? They both made legal decisions, with the expectations of them having equal reasonability in that choice. Should the wife be made to suffer to exist, because of that? Because she changed her mind? They have debts together, they have a house together, their incomes were shared. Everything was done together.

If your response to that is "Yes, he should have say", then maybe you're not pro-suicide. Maybe you're "pro-suicide with a lot of exceptions".

With that being said, if suicide becomes legal, there should be responsibilities that has to be handled beforehand. If the person in question has a desire to commit suicide, but has living children that are under a certain age, they should make sure that child is taken care of beforehand. Such as signing them over to a trusted family or friend member, or even sadly putting them into adoption or the foster care system. That child needs to be taken care of beforehand, legally, if legal suicide is allowed.