Discussion A shared purpose

[BipolarGuy]

I have seen many comments about so called "pro-lifers" (which has a different meaning on this website than it does elsewhere).
My own neutrality has attracted accusations of me being "pro-life" and having an "agenda", apparently simply because I am willing to offer a different perspective...
...and once again I'm prepared to be the maverick and offer an alternative perspective...


It seems to me that the people who run fixthe26 are perfectly good people. In fact they may be better people than your average Joe because, frankly, not many people who feel strongly about something are willing to actually take action and do something.
I have huge respect for people who want to see something changed and go out and try to change it.

It also seems to me that the vast majority of people on this forum are also perfectly decent people who use this website due to how we're feeling.

What we all have in common (fixthe26 and people on this forum) is that we have been failed by mental health services as well as fallen victims to circumstance.
So rather than digging in our heels and throwing mud at each other, why don't we work together?

The support I have received from members of this website has kept me alive despite having been in possession of a method to end my life for a couple of weeks now, and despite setting a date to end my life three times in the last two weeks.

If this website were to be shut down, it wouldn't solve the problem. In fact it may make it worse as people like us wouldn't be able to access peer support.
If fixthe26 failed to shut down this website, it also wouldn't improve anything for us because we'd all still be experiencing the same issues regardless.

So I do wonder if there is a way we can all work together to tackle our common issues, one of which is poor quality mental health services.
I know that members of this forum (myself included) would be motivated to tackle this issue, and my guess would be that members of fixthe26 would be motivated by this too.

 

[whywere]

I hear where you are coming from. That is why I now state that I am not either ctb or pro life, just make sound decisions. I 100% agree with you. WE ALL should work together for the best possible outcome for each and every global famaily member here, whatever that is and/or where ever that may lead. Love and caring to all!

 

[k75]

I don't disagree. It's a nice thought and I wish it were possible, but I highly doubt that could ever happen since some of their biggest motivation is that they specifically blame this forum for essentially murdering their loved ones. It's not right, but I can respect the pain that they're in. But the anger is misdirected, and I wish they'd see it's the mental health services who deserve the focus. They could possibly make a real difference if they'd use all that energy on the things that really matter rather than constantly taking potshots at other hurting and depressed people who weren't even around when they suffered their losses.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I don't disagree. It's a nice thought and I wish it were possible, but I highly doubt that could ever happen since some of their biggest motivation is that they specifically blame this forum for essentially murdering their loved ones. It's not right, but I can respect the pain that they're in. But the anger is misdirected, and I wish they'd see it's the mental health services who deserve the focus. They could possibly make a real difference if they'd use all that energy on the things that really matter rather than constantly taking potshots at other hurting and depressed people who weren't even around when they suffered their losses.

I do agree with this, but I think you need to give people more credit. They and we are far from stupid.
It's truly tragic that they lost family members or friends. Frankly we're not losing family members, we're losing something even greater - we're directly losing our own lives.
Both of these (the loss of family members as well as our own lives) is caused by a common, shared problem. The longer we throw mud at each other, the more family members and lives will be lost due to our energy not being concentrated on tackling the real issue.
The real issue isn't this website, nor fixthe26.
The longer that 'we' take aim at each other, the longer the real enemy (poor mental health services) gets off scot-free.

 

[Symbiote]

We're broken, they're broken, and mental health system is broken. Who is going to step up and open our minds to the issue at hand? We're already trying our best to help our families take mental health seriously, some mental health systems are overwhelmed and hope the families come in and take care of their loved ones, but then the loved ones who don't want to see us die, also refuse to read or educate themselves about mental health in general. They both given up, committed their own "suicide" on ethics and values.

Fixthe26 is an echo chamber just like SanctionedSuicide. They're set in their beliefs and refuse to work with us, they figure they just commit us and let mental health throw pills at us like a carnival game. We're set in our beliefs and experiences that life isn't worth living, please do not stop us from CTBing, and that Fixthe26 pose a threat to our goals. Mental health system is just waiting for one of us to crack so they can make some more money to create more awareness campaigns and pretend they're doing something right.

All of it is a Catch-22.

 

[k75]

I do agree with this, but I think you need to give people more credit. They and we are far from stupid.
It's tragic that they lost family members. But we're not losing family members, we're losing something even greater - our own lives.
Both of these (the loss of family members as well as our own lives) is caused by a common, shared problem. The longer we throw mud at each other, the more family members and lives will be lost due to our energy not being concentrated on tackling the real issue.
The real issue isn't this website, nor fixthe26.
The longer that 'we' take aim at each other, the longer the real enemy (poor mental health services) gets off scot-free.

From what I've seen over the last year, they're too blinded by grief to reason. Maybe it's easier to use scapegoats than step back and see the bigger picture. Maybe they just want to look like they're doing stuff.

All I really know is when challenged with the real questions, they have no answers and don't even try. I, myself, asked what kind of help would they recommend as a suicide alternative if all other attempts at hotlines and drugs and therapy failed and was shut down cold. The response was they didn't want to deal with this crap today because headaches, and then my question was removed.

So yeah... I'm all for people trying to reason with them, but for me it was like hitting a brick wall.

 

[BipolarGuy]

From what I've seen over the last year, they're too blinded by grief to reason. Maybe it's easier to use scapegoats than step back and see the bigger picture. Maybe they just want to look like they're doing stuff.

All I really know is when challenged with the real questions, they have no answers and don't even try. I, myself, asked what kind of help would they recommend as a suicide alternative if all other attempts at hotlines and drugs and therapy failed and was shut down cold. The response was they didn't want to deal with this crap today because headaches, and then my question was removed.

So yeah... I'm all for people trying to reason with them, but for me it was like hitting a brick wall.

In all fairness I think we're all blinded by our own issues to reason effectively.
I know for a fact that I was almost too blinded by my desire to end my life to reason at all, within only the past 2 weeks. I don't think this is a problem unique to fixthe26, though I do take your point.

I don't know what you mean about challenging them with the "real questions". I assume you went on to their website or Facebook group and asked a question, but received no response?

Talking openly tends to lead to a greater understanding and progress.

 

[ecmnesia]

I do agree with this, but I think you need to give people more credit. They and we are far from stupid.
It's truly tragic that they lost family members or friends. Frankly we're not losing family members, we're losing something even greater - we're directly losing our own lives.
Both of these (the loss of family members as well as our own lives) is caused by a common, shared problem. The longer we throw mud at each other, the more family members and lives will be lost due to our energy not being concentrated on tackling the real issue.
The real issue isn't this website, nor fixthe26.
The longer that 'we' take aim at each other, the longer the real enemy (poor mental health services) gets off scot-free.

not everyone sees life as "something greater".

and those people are basically, from what I understand, trying to impose their logic and values on us. although I can understand that they are in pain it's not reasonable to blame the forum. for better or for worse, their loved us chose to be here and go on with cbt. it's not fair that others individuals must lose the right to choose what to do with their own bodies because of it.

they don't seem to be looking for an agreement, there is no middle ground to them, it's either what they believe or nothing. and they are willing to go to extreme extents to guarantee that their voice is listened, even if it means spreading lies as they do in their video.

+ can you truly visualize a pratical plan for this proposal to work?

I might be blind by my personal perspective, so no, I cannot imagine such a thing.

 

[BipolarGuy]

not everyone sees life as "something greater".

As someone who planned to end my life three times in the last two weeks, I can assure you that it is down to perspective.
Having experienced something better, albeit briefly, I can assure you that in most cases if life circumstances change this will lead to a feeling of being less depressed, note I didn't say a feeling of having been "cured".

Yes, I'm still in a position where I basically feel that life isn't worth living.

and those people are basically, from what I understand, trying to impose their logic and values on us. although I can understand that they are in pain it's not reasonable to blame the forum. for better or for worse, their loved us chose to be here and go on with cbt. it's not fair that others individuals must lose the right to choose what to do with their own bodies because of it.

they don't seem to be looking for an agreement, there is no middle ground to them, it's either what they believe or nothing. and they are willing to go to extreme extents to guarantee that their voice is listened, even if it means spreading lies as they do in their video.

I don't know what you mean by "it's not fair that others individuals must lose the right to choose what to do with their own bodies because of it".
I don't think that fixthe26 is campaigning for suicide to be a criminal offence.
Suicide has been legal in the United Kingdom since 1961, I think.

In a way I like that there is no middle ground for them! When I feel passionate about something I tend to 'go for it' too, and not settle for anything less.
It shows their drive.
I'm just suggesting that we all use our drive to achieve something that will actually make a positive difference.

 

[k75]

In all fairness I think we're all blinded by our own issues to reason effectively.
I know for a fact that I was almost too blinded by my desire to end my life to reason at all, within only the past 2 weeks. I don't think this is a problem unique to fixthe26, though I do take your point.

I don't know what you mean about challenging them with the "real questions". I assume you went on to their website or Facebook group and asked a question, but received no response?

Talking openly tends to lead to a greater understanding and progress.

So this same group of people, or at least some of them, once started a facebook group to attack SS. I joined under a dummy account and attempted to talk to them. I was genuinely curious about what they thought we should do, because they were preaching that suicide is not ever the answer. So I asked. And the response was exactly what I said. First my post was hidden from the group, then after I asked why, I was told it wasnt deleted but he had a headache and didn't want to deal with that crap today.

I never got a discussion, which I had hoped would open up in the group, and these people who were busy saying get help couldn't be bothered to even talk about the subject. It felt like if it wasn't about shutting down our forum for coercing people into suicide, it wasn't allowed.

 

[Symbiote]

Secondly, they may not want to listen to what we have to say because in their view, "We are irrational". I think it would blow their minds for 2 secs that what we have to say is important before they realize, "Why am I listening to a suicidal person, they ain't right in the head to begin with". What we can do is open our minds to the mental health professionals, the ones that do study and research on the causes of suicidal thinking and ideation. Help them understand us, so that they can in the future understand others who may never come to this website and help them.

 

[BipolarGuy]

So this same group of people, or at least some of them, once started a facebook group to attack SS. I joined under a dummy account and attempted to talk to them. I was genuinely curious about what they thought we should do, because they were preaching that suicide is not ever the answer. So I asked. And the response was exactly what I said. First my post was hidden from the group, then after I asked why, I was told it wasnt deleted but he had a headache and didn't want to deal with that crap today.

I never got a discussion, which I had hoped would open up in the group, and these people who were busy saying get help couldn't be bothered to even talk about the subject. It felt like if it wasn't about shutting down our forum for coercing people into suicide, it wasn't allowed.

OK, well lets not get into a bitching match about what they should do to improve.
I could go into how I feel a minority behave on this website, but I don't feel the need - I don't believe that anybody on this site or fixthe26 is claiming to be perfect.

Lets concentrate on the positives of working together and how we might achieve that :)

 

[LMFAO FOCKERS]

So I do wonder if there is a way we can all work together to tackle our common issues, one of which is poor quality mental health services.
I know that members of this forum (myself included) would be motivated to tackle this issue, and my guess would be that members of fixthe26 would be motivated by this too.

I agree with @k75. I'd also add that I dont really see that there is common ground when everyone on this site has been labeled "evil", predators, and other simplistic black-n-white labels. They have created this weird dichotomy whereby those who have committed suicide (i.e. they're relatives) are labeled vulnerable, good people. The remainder of us that are still alive here they label as evil, predators. The funny thing is that they cant face the fact that their loved one joined this site of their own free will and chose suicide. That would in essence make their relatives "evil" too, no? Or better yet why arent all of us on this site good, vulnerable people??​

​

Their goal is not to fix a broken mental health system. Its to exact revenge, plain and simple. If it were to fix the system they wouldn't have all these negative things to say about mentally ill people who are on the edge. The amount of effort that they have made to infiltrate, tear people down, and bait people on this site despite SS representing itself as a free-will, pro-choice forum just proves that they are more interested in finding, and even falsifying evidence to support their false narrative rather than "helping" people. To them it would be an accomplishment to see mentally ill people go back underground that way when the occasional suicide comes across the news or social media they can ignore it, or see it as some kind of one of one-off occurrence in society to be pitied. "Why didn't she / he tell us he he/she needed help??" Meanwhile these people remain ignorant to the realistic fact that droves of people are suiciding at the hands of a failed system. In some cases I'd even go as far as to say its a failed society as neighbors and communities often ignore the abuse happening in the house next door which often leads to children becoming broken suicidal members of society.​

​

Theres also the problem that most of them dont understand the difference between situational and chronic depression. So many of them post these stupid videos of some depressed guy who miraculously got better through purely positive thinking or some guy who took meds for 6 months and weaned himself off after he felt better. They have no understanding of how theses mental disorders have longterm often permanent effects on an individuals quality of life, and adult development. They simply cant relate. To do any further digging to understand would destroy their narrative that all mental disease is fixable. Funny thing is psychiatrists / psychologists know this but most won't dare say it to the masses as it would probably cause people not to spend the vast amounts of dollars they do on this narrative of recovery, which means less money for them. For the fast majority of those with real mental illness there is no cure hence most trained professionals are simply intermittent bandaids and not permanent fixers as the general public makes them out to be.​

I do agree with this, but I think you need to give people more credit. They and we are far from stupid.
It's tragic that they lost family members. But we're not losing family members, we're losing something even greater - our own lives.
Both of these (the loss of family members as well as our own lives) is caused by a common, shared problem. The longer we throw mud at each other, the more family members and lives will be lost due to our energy not being concentrated on tackling the real issue.
The real issue isn't this website, nor fixthe26.
The longer that 'we' take aim at each other, the longer the real enemy (poor mental health services) gets off scot-free.

I think you have a overly simplistic glorified view of these people and the depth of lows that they would go to tear people down on this site. So many have joined and cursed us out and created other private groups on FB to disparage members on this site. They are willing to lie and twist peoples words if it suits their agenda. Its quite sad and petty; Not productive not positive. I liken it to actions of protestors who were mad when busing began in the 60's after Brown v. Board of Ed.​

 

[BipolarGuy]

Secondly, they may not want to listen to what we have to say because in their view, "We are irrational". I think it would blow their minds for 2 secs that what we have to say is important before they realize, "Why am I listening to a suicidal person, they ain't right in the head to begin with". What we can do is open our minds to the mental health professionals, the ones that do study and research on the causes of suicidal thinking and ideation. Help them understand us, so that they can in the future understand others who may never come to this website and help them.

See my post above in reply to K75.

I agree with @k75. I'd also add that I dont really see that there is common ground when everyone on this site has been labeled "evil", predators, and other simplistic black-n-white labels. They have created this weird dichotomy whereby those who have committed suicide (i.e. they're relatives) are labeled vulnerable, good people. The remainder of us that are still alive here they label as evil, predators. The funny thing is that they cant face the fact that their loved one joined this site of their own free will and chose suicide. That would in essence make their relatives "evil" too, no? Or better yet why arent all of us on this site good, vulnerable people??​

​

Their goal is not to fix a broken mental health system. Its to exact revenge, plain and simple. If it were to fix the system they wouldn't have all these negative things to say about mentally ill people who are on the edge. The amount of effort that they have made to infiltrate, tear people down, and bait people on this site despite SS representing itself as a free-will, pro-choice forum just proves that they are more interested in finding, and even falsifying evidence to support their false narrative rather than "helping" people. To them it would be an accomplishment to see mentally ill people go back underground that way when the occasional suicide comes across the news or social media they can ignore it, or see it as some kind of one of one-off occurrence in society to be pitied. "Why didn't she / he tell us he he/she needed help??" Meanwhile these people remain ignorant to the realistic fact that droves of people are suiciding at the hands of a failed system. In some cases I'd even go as far as to say its a failed society as neighbors and communities often ignore the abuse happening in the house next door which often leads to children becoming broken suicidal members of society.​

​

Theres also the problem that most of them dont understand the difference between situational and chronic depression. So many of them post these stupid videos of some depressed guy who miraculously got better through purely positive thinking or some guy who took meds for 6 months and weaned himself off after he felt better. They have no understanding of how theses mental disorders have longterm often permanent effects on an individuals quality of life, and adult development. They simply cant relate. To do any further digging to understand would destroy their narrative that all mental disease is fixable. Funny thing is psychiatrists / psychologists know this but most won't dare to say it to the masses as it would probably cause people not to spend the vast amounts of dollars they do on this narrative of recovery. For the fast majority of those with real mental illness there is no cure hence most trained professionals are simply intermittent bandaids and not permanent fixers as the general public makes them out to be.​

I think you have a overly simplistic glorified view of these people and the depth of lows that they would go to tear people down on this site. So many have joined and cursed us out and created other private groups on FB to disparage members on this site. They are willing to lie and twist peoples words if it suits their agenda. Its quite sad and petty; Not productive not positive. I liken it to actions of protestors who were mad when busing began in the 60's after Brown v. Board of Ed.​

I think it is very easy to put road blocks in the way of progress, which don't need to be there.
Again, see my above reply to K75

 

[ecmnesia]

I do not agree with you there. In fact, I had quite the same experience of planning cbt multiple times but always backing out, still I haven't changed my perspective on the value of life, in fact I wish I haven't been born at all.

Life does not necessarily gets better for everyone, and no one is more capable than judging that then ourselves. This might me true to you, but humanity is extremely diverse.

I don't know what you mean by "it's not fair that others individuals must lose the right to choose what to do with their own bodies because of it".
I don't think that fixthe26 is campaigning for suicide to be a criminal offence.
Suicide has been legal in the United Kingdom since 1961, I think.

Well, if I'm not wrong they wish for this site to be illegal, which implies that people will not have access to the forum and methods, therefore they will be stripped from their right to choose a peaceful as possible death. Just because suicide is legal in the UK, it does not imply that individuals are guarantee the resources to achieve it, if that's their choice.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I do not agree with you there. In fact, I had quite the same experience of planning cbt multiple times but always backing out, still I haven't changed my perspective on the value of life, in fact I wish I haven't been born at all.

I feel the same.

Life does not necessarily gets better for everyone, and no one is more capable than judging that then ourselves. This might me true to you, but humanity is extremely diverse.

I once again agree.

Well, if I'm not wrong they wish for this site to be illegal, which implies that people will not have access to the forum and methods, therefore they will be stripped from their right to choose a peaceful as possible death. Just because suicide is legal in the UK, it does not imply that individuals are guarantee the resources to achieve it, if that's their choice.

Yes that's my understanding of their aim.
But the reason for their aim is to reduce suicides - which brings me back to my original post in their thread: shutting down this site will not reduce suicides. In fact it may increase them due to lack of peer support (I have already shared my own position on this in post #1).
Therefore, we should stop throwing mud and work together - see my original post.

 

[ecmnesia]

also you cannot achieve anything if both parts are not down to find common ground. that's the base of any agreement and it implies that each of the sides will necessarily need to settle for less than they bargained for.

you said it yourself that for most users it is within their best reggards to be provided with an effective health system, therefore they are would probably be willing to help improving the system. on the other hand, I cannot say that for the other side.

 

[Symbiote]

From what I can see from their Change.org petitions, they believe this site is actively targeting children. They get a bunch of bandwagoners to jump on thinking that we target and entice children to end their lives. Once again, they are misguided since when I joined this site last week, there was a vetting process and you had to be over 18 to join. But what can you do, you're welcome to try and open dialogue with them BG and see where it goes.

 

[BipolarGuy]

also you cannot achieve anything if both parts are not down to find common ground. that's the base of any agreement and it implies that each of the sides will necessarily need to settle for less than they bargained for.

you said it yourself that for most users it is within their best reggards to be provided with an effective health system, therefore they are would probably be willing to help improving the system. on the other hand, I cannot say that for the other side.

OK well let's quit saying that "they" are unwilling to work together when we don't know that. Nobody is perfect, including on this site.
Working together doesn't have to be a compromise when we'd be working together on a higher purpose - making mental health care better.

From what I can see from their Change.org petitions, they believe this site is actively targeting children. They get a bunch of bandwagoners to jump on thinking that we target and entice children to end their lives. Once again, they are misguided since when I joined this site last week, there was a vetting process and you had to be over 18 to join. But what can you do, you're welcome to try and open dialogue with them BG and see where it goes.

I'd be happy to open dialogue, but I'd be just one person - I'd need the backing of the site at least to begin with in order to bring both parties together.
If this forum wrote to me privately and said that if I could sort something out with them then they'd be happy to work together, I'd have something to start with.

 

[LMFAO FOCKERS]

Their goal is to end the suicide websites NOT suicide. If the site were taken down there would be no aim because its no longer in their face. Its hidden and "normal" people can go back to being none-the-wiser. All of their petitions, letters to lawmakers and websites target SS type websites not suicide as a social problem.

The fact that the average person will affiliate their desire to end SS (and the like) with a desire to end suicide as a whole gives their cause baby sea legs. Its as if suicide didnt exist before WWW came about in the 90's. Suicide is on the rise because societal values have changed not because SS shows up on the first page of every search engine.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Well, if I'm not wrong they wish for this site to be illegal [...]

Yes that's my understanding of their aim.

I disagree that this is their aim [...]

I think you've misunderstood what I was replying to, see above.

 

[k75]

OK, well lets not get into a bitching match about what they should do to improve.
I could go into how I feel a minority behave on this website, but I don't feel the need - I don't believe that anybody on this site or fixthe26 is claiming to be perfect.

Lets concentrate on the positives of working together and how we might achieve that :)

I'm not really bitching but trying to explain why I don't believe it can be reality. Trying to openly get feedback from them was my only idea, and that's what happened. But that's really all I care to say on the subject.

Good luck to anyone who tries. I do think it's a good idea and wish some sort of compromise could happen. :)

 

[LMFAO FOCKERS]

I think you've misunderstood what I was replying to, see above.

Sorry, I removed it. I quoted the wrong thing and cant remember what I was responding to, but the idea is still a valid one I want to communicate.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I'm not really bitching but trying to explain why I don't believe it can be reality. Trying to openly get feedback from them was my only idea, and that's what happened. But that's really all I care to say on the subject.

Good luck to anyone who tries. I do think it's a good idea and wish some sort of compromise could happen. :)

As I said, I'm more than happy to open up talks with the backing of @sanctionedsuicide ........

 

[SHThrowAway213]

I think most people on SS including me, would not want to work with those people, those "good" people that spread obvious and harmful lies. Saying we target children and actively encourage people to commit suicide. There must be more they are spreading, but my memory is bad so I can't remember the rest.
If they approached this in a mature and appropriate manner, then I'm sure most people would be happy to work together, but ultimately, even if we did work together, it would not make a single difference.
I will also say though, that they are obviously in a lot of pain and dealing with a lot of grief, and think that this is the way of dealing with it and are searching for reasons why and thought this website is harmful and decided to use it as a bit of a scapegoat.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I think most people on SS including me, would not want to work with those people, those "good" people that spread obvious and harmful lies. Saying we target children and actively encourage people to commit suicide. There must be more they are spreading, but my memory is bad so I can't remember the rest.
If they approached this in a mature and appropriate manner, then I'm sure most people would be happy to work together, but ultimately, even if we did work together, it would not make a single difference.
I will also say though, that they are obviously in a lot of pain and dealing with a lot of grief, and think that this is the way of dealing with it and are searching for reasons why and thought this website is harmful and decided to use it as a bit of a scapegoat.

I don't know what lies you're talking about, and frankly I'm not interested. The reason is that to work together one has to put differences aside in order to work towards a higher goal.
People on this forum are not perfect either and I purposely have no engaged in a rant about this, as I have done so before.

And yes, you're right, they are in pain from loss.

 

[SHThrowAway213]

I don't know what lies you're talking about, and frankly I'm not interested. The reason is that to work together one has to put differences aside in order to work towards a higher goal.
People on this forum are not perfect either and I purposely have no engaged in a rant about this, as I have done so before.

And yes, you're right, they are in pain from loss.

You must of not done enough research about it then if you don't know what I'm talking about
But if you said you are not interested, I think I should drop it so that I will.
I'm sorry if I came across as rude, prolifers just tend to touch my nerves a bit, just because I have heard it so many times, but I do understand their point of view.
It must be incredibly tough for them.
To be honest, I've only had 2 deaths in my family.
I've had plenty of pets die, my great nan died when I was 10 and my uncle died 4 years ago.
I only saw my great nan a couple of times as she lived 500 miles away, and my uncle was on my biological Dads side so I never really spoke to them, but he was one of the only ones I got on with, but it did not affect me that much.
I've never been through proper grief for a person before, so as much as I can try to sympathize, I have no sense of it.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

You have good and bad people on all ends of the spectrum, it's not about that. Pro life and pro choice ideologies are like oil and water. The two are completely incompatible and there is no real way of "working together."

 

[BipolarGuy]

You have good and bad people on all ends of the spectrum, it's not about that. Pro life and pro choice ideologies are like oil and water. The two are completely incompatible and there is no real way of "working together."

I don't believe that's true, as I believe all people would like mental health services to be better.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

I don't believe that's true, as I believe all people would like mental health services to be better.

I would agree with that, but it wouldn't end there. Both sides seek the destruction of the other. There's way too much animosity to come to any consensus.