A self fulfilling prophecy

[willitpass]

I was always told by therapists, and even now still get told when I occasionally open up to people, that I'm essentially creating this reality for myself. I tell myself I'm going to kill my self, I tell myself I will always be depressed, I do things to make myself feel worse, I self harm. I was always told if I stopped doing these things and started telling myself I would get better and I was destined for suicide it would become my reality. It always made me angry. How do you just fucking completely change your thoughts? How do you take everything you have ever known and believed and just… stop believing it. "You make little changes, use the coping skills you've been taught". I tried. I tried so fucking hard. For over a decade I fought my own thoughts as hard as I could and it always felt like a slap in the face. I always felt like I wasn't trying hard enough. I no longer argue with people who tell me that, and usually I don't have those conversations anymore because I don't open up, because I just would feel so angry and belittled. Nowadays I've succumbed to learned helplessness. I don't try to fight my thoughts, it's not worth it. I am one with my depression and suicidality. And if that makes me weak or if that's giving up that yes I'm weak and I gave up. But that was always so hard. Maybe if I'd just tried harder and thought differently I would be better off now.

 

[derpyderpins]

I was always told by therapists, and even now still get told when I occasionally open up to people, that I'm essentially creating this reality for myself. I tell myself I'm going to kill my self, I tell myself I will always be depressed, I do things to make myself feel worse, I self harm. I was always told if I stopped doing these things and started telling myself I would get better and I was destined for suicide it would become my reality. It always made me angry. How do you just fucking completely change your thoughts? How do you take everything you have ever known and believed and just… stop believing it. "You make little changes, use the coping skills you've been taught". I tried. I tried so fucking hard. For over a decade I fought my own thoughts as hard as I could and it always felt like a slap in the face. I always felt like I wasn't trying hard enough. I no longer argue with people who tell me that, and usually I don't have those conversations anymore because I don't open up, because I just would feel so angry and belittled. Nowadays I've succumbed to learned helplessness. I don't try to fight my thoughts, it's not worth it. I am one with my depression and suicidality. And if that makes me weak or if that's giving up that yes I'm weak and I gave up. But that was always so hard. Maybe if I'd just tried harder and thought differently I would be better off now.

I'm with you. I hate the premise that you should basically lie to yourself. It was always the opposite of helpful for me. I eventually settled on absolute truth as a compromise. So, for example, 'I'll always be depressed.' The common advice would be to just force yourself to think 'I won't always be depressed!' Right? And that's bullshit, because there's no way to know that. So, I'll try editing it to 'I've pretty much always been depressed, and I probably always will be, but I know there have been fluctuations in how bad it has been and maybe the level of depression can decrease a bit over time.' Yes, it's fucking pedantic as hell, but at least it's not a false promise, and it helps a bit with the "self-fulfilling prophecy" issue.

 

[ummagumma]

that hit very hard
im so sorry it has to be this way, i really am. wish life was simple and fair

 

[Raindancer]

First, I totally believe you cannot just think yourself well. I do believe however that what we tell ourselves does play a roll, at least it did for me. I used to have all the thoughts, "you are an awful person, things will never get better" etc. and I was told the same only to write in on post it notes and put them EVERYWHERE. I cannot tell you how stupid I felt standing at my mirror md speaking loud, "I am a good person" "I can handle this' etc. For months I rolled my eyes at my therapist and half-heartedly said them. Once I got out of inpatient I had sticky notes in my home, in my car, at work. Anything good. Well after months, it began to make a difference. It did not fix everything but it was a tool that helped and it truly did change how I think about myself. I don't use them often anymore because I don't have much negative self talk, but when things do get bad I use them.

 

[willitpass]

I do believe that a lot of people benefit from positive self talk and reframing. Constant self deprecation isn't good for anymore. And I tried. Adamantly. For years I had index cards with positive affirmations on my walls. I had self help books. I had playlists of positive music and would try to reframe all of my thoughts. Years and years and not once did it ever feel like anything but I lie. I never started to feel better like everyone told me I would if I just kept trying. But I kept trying anyway. For years. Eventually is became pointless. It was uncomfortable and felt so fake to do those things day in and day out to no avail, so I stopped. I think I gave it more than enough of a chance. If I'm going to hate myself, at least I'm hating myself comfortably rather than exhausting myself even further trying something I know doesn't work for me.

First, I totally believe you cannot just think yourself well. I do believe however that what we tell ourselves does play a roll, at least it did for me. I used to have all the thoughts, "you are an awful person, things will never get better" etc. and I was told the same only to write in on post it notes and put them EVERYWHERE. I cannot tell you how stupid I felt standing at my mirror md speaking loud, "I am a good person" "I can handle this' etc. For months I rolled my eyes at my therapist and half-heartedly said them. Once I got out of inpatient I had sticky notes in my home, in my car, at work. Anything good. Well after months, it began to make a difference. It did not fix everything but it was a tool that helped and it truly did change how I think about myself. I don't use them often anymore because I don't have much negative self talk, but when things do get bad I use them.

 

[thenamingofcats]

Your beliefs are your beliefs. You can challenge them but if you truly believe them then trying to change that is just manipulating yourself. The only way I've changed my beliefs and thoughts is if I found out they weren't true (or someone pointed it out to me). Is there proof of the things you believe about yourself? I mean honest proof that other people can see and would agree with, not negative self talk.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Self fulfilling prophecies happen when you get stuck in a particular way of thinking due to your brain trying to cope and survive in this world. It's thought that certain mental illnesses are partly caused by the more "primitive" parts of our brains. Certain behavioural and thought patterns that prior would have aided in our survival now, as modern humans have ended up causing people harm. Our outdated instincts have led to much suffering. People get caught up in a particular pattern of thinking in response to trauma and mental illness which, over time, can become harder to break. As a result, you eventually get to a point where you are in a self-fulfilling on which now you have long since predicted your downfall.

The thing is, there have been cases of people getting out of situations very similar to yours. The issue is that it takes a shit ton of work, but it's always possible that you can climb yourself out of this. If you decide not then that's fine too. Sometimes we get to a point where we get so tired that we just don't want to bother fighting it anymore and there is nothing wrong with that. You are you do only you can decide on what you think you need to do.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Thoughts are tricky but we do control our behaviour. I used to have big problems with binge eating. I suppose it was compulsive behaviour, it used to feel frighteningly out of control but, I read a book once that basically said the choice to binge is still ours. We can choose not to do it.

We do make decisions each day on whether to do things that will harm us or hopefully help us to some extent. That can be anything from personal hygienne, diet, exercise, being active or procrastinating, abusing drugs or alcohol. We all do probably know the right and wrong thing to do.

Of course, the mindset of: 'Well, I want to kill myself anyway, so it doesn't matter' doesn't help. But ultimately- all the time we're not killing ourselves, we're stuck here. We can make that time much worse for ourselves by I suppose indulging in quick fixes serve a function to sate our current emotional mess but we know in the long-run, just make things worse for ourselves.

It's so hard to stop though because these things become habitual. At times, I used to feel almost out of my mind wanting to binge eat. Plus, sometimes, I'd ward off the cravings one day only to succumb to them the next day. I've always felt like food cravings were one of the most unfair. So many foods used to trigger me and it's not like we can do without food. Imagine telling an alcoholic they had to have 3 drinks a day but, no more. It still scares me how easy it would be for me to start doing it again but, I know it's a slippery slope. Once I'd stopped for a while, it did become easier at least.

Honestly, I hope you can stop your self harming behaviour but I suppose I do think it is a choice to some extent. One like any other, we have the right to make. To a lesser degree, I issolate myself because socialising feels scary. I know it's bad for me though but I suppose ultimately, I feel the consequences are worth it to feel safe and comfortable. I don't know really- does self harm have an ironically comforting feeling?

I suppose the hope with these things is that we stop the damaging behaviour which hopefully brings us benefits in our physical health which in turn, improves our mental health (hopefully.)

 

[willitpass]

The thing is, there have been cases of people getting out of situations very similar to yours. The issue is that it takes a shit ton of work, but it's always possible that you can climb yourself out of this. If you decide not then that's fine too. Sometimes we get to a point where we get so tired that we just don't want to bother fighting it anymore and there is nothing wrong with that. You are you do only you can decide on what you think you need to do.

I suppose the hope with these things is that we stop the damaging behaviour which hopefully brings us benefits in our physical health which in turn, improves our mental health (hopefully.)

I'm well aware that the general advice is to stop doing the negative behavior and over time your mental health will improve with it. That's the whole point that I was making. I spent YEARS fighting the negative behavior and self talk and replacing it with healthy ones. Every therapy program, medication, shock therapy, hospitalization, exercise, healthy diet, happy music, meditation. You name it I tried it and I tried it HARD. At a certain point it just simply does not work. It feels like I'm being told I just haven't tried hard enough or that I just don't want it bad enough. How many years and how hard is someone supposed to fight their mental illness when not a single thing works?

 

[Meteora]

I was always told by therapists, and even now still get told when I occasionally open up to people, that I'm essentially creating this reality for myself. I tell myself I'm going to kill my self, I tell myself I will always be depressed, I do things to make myself feel worse, I self harm. I was always told if I stopped doing these things and started telling myself I would get better and I was destined for suicide it would become my reality. It always made me angry. How do you just fucking completely change your thoughts? How do you take everything you have ever known and believed and just… stop believing it. "You make little changes, use the coping skills you've been taught". I tried. I tried so fucking hard. For over a decade I fought my own thoughts as hard as I could and it always felt like a slap in the face. I always felt like I wasn't trying hard enough. I no longer argue with people who tell me that, and usually I don't have those conversations anymore because I don't open up, because I just would feel so angry and belittled. Nowadays I've succumbed to learned helplessness. I don't try to fight my thoughts, it's not worth it. I am one with my depression and suicidality. And if that makes me weak or if that's giving up that yes I'm weak and I gave up. But that was always so hard. Maybe if I'd just tried harder and thought differently I would be better off now.

Hey.... I feel that so much.... in my opinion, it so abusive what they said and did.... must be complete morons, honestly......
Every child knows nowadays that it doesn t help to suppress feelings...... --> see meditation skills...... I m speechless, also, because I m in a similar situation.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I'm well aware that the general advice is to stop doing the negative behavior and over time your mental health will improve with it. That's the whole point that I was making. I spent YEARS fighting the negative behavior and self talk and replacing it with healthy ones. Every therapy program, medication, shock therapy, hospitalization, exercise, healthy diet, happy music, meditation. You name it I tried it and I tried it HARD. At a certain point it just simply does not work. It feels like I'm being told I just haven't tried hard enough or that I just don't want it bad enough. How many years and how hard is someone supposed to fight their mental illness when not a single thing works?

Have you ever tried psychedelic therapy?

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm well aware that the general advice is to stop doing the negative behavior and over time your mental health will improve with it. That's the whole point that I was making. I spent YEARS fighting the negative behavior and self talk and replacing it with healthy ones. Every therapy program, medication, shock therapy, hospitalization, exercise, healthy diet, happy music, meditation. You name it I tried it and I tried it HARD. At a certain point it just simply does not work. It feels like I'm being told I just haven't tried hard enough or that I just don't want it bad enough. How many years and how hard is someone supposed to fight their mental illness when not a single thing works?

I don't have an answer for how long it takes. I can't say whether it's even possible! I don't think even people working in mental healthcare know. I'm not trying to knock what you've been through or, how hard you've tried. It does seem like you've been through so much. I do actually admire you for putting yourself through all that. I don't think I would.

Ultimately, I'm pro-choice through and through. I think it should be up to us as to what we want to try to help us and for how long. We're the ones going through it. I've had far less treatment than you and I'm not sure I even have severe problems but I still feel justified in wanting to end things early.

I think you do make a strong argument for the whole- 'If you can't help me, let me die' to the medical profession. The same way they would let someone with chronic illness access to assisted suicide but I suppose they are a much tougher audience to convince.

I suppose I do feel like things like therapy aren't like medications that you swallow and they take effect whatever else you do. I feel like you need to truly want to get better for therapy to work. Maybe I'm wrong but that's why I feel it would be a waste for me. I'm not in a place where I would be so trusting and compliant to just do what they advised. I feel pretty attached to my suicidal self. I don't think I truly want to change and challenge myself for recovery to work on me.

Did it help at all may I ask? Did you stop self harming for a period and did that make things better or worse? But yeah- I don't know a lot about what's available, how effective it is and why it fails some people. Maybe lots of people. I'm sorry you've fought so hard for so little reward.

 

[willitpass]

Did it help at all may I ask? Did you stop self harming for a period and did that make things better or worse? But yeah- I don't know a lot about what's available, how effective it is and why it fails some people. Maybe lots of people. I'm sorry you've fought so hard for so little reward.

I had periods of remission where I was genuinely content and sometimes even happy with life. The longest one only last about a year. I always manage to relapse, and the periods of being okay no longer last more than a few months anymore. As far as self harm, I've had long periods of not hurting myself, even at my peak of depression. I've self harmed nearly my entire life and it comes and goes in waves of intensity. Currently it's just about at its peak of how bad it's ever been, and it's been this bad for over a year now. I usually self harm as a form of punishment, not release, so it doesn't help, I can't say what degree it hurts, because fighting the urges usually just causes intense anxiety. It's a lose lose.

Have you ever tried psychedelic therapy?

The only available psychedelic therapy near me is $500+/session and is not covered by my insurance. I don't have that kind of money.

 

[Raindancer]

I do believe that a lot of people benefit from positive self talk and reframing. Constant self deprecation isn't good for anymore. And I tried. Adamantly. For years I had index cards with positive affirmations on my walls. I had self help books. I had playlists of positive music and would try to reframe all of my thoughts. Years and years and not once did it ever feel like anything but I lie. I never started to feel better like everyone told me I would if I just kept trying. But I kept trying anyway. For years. Eventually is became pointless. It was uncomfortable and felt so fake to do those things day in and day out to no avail, so I stopped. I think I gave it more than enough of a chance. If I'm going to hate myself, at least I'm hating myself comfortably rather than exhausting myself even further trying something I know doesn't work for me.

I cannot imagine the work you put in for years and how frustrating and heartbreaking it must have been to not get any results. I can completely relate to that on a physical level. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how hard I worked, no matter how many different options I tried, it never got or gets better. As someone said, you eventually hit that exhaustion point. No one wants to accept we've hit that point so we get all of the "just try again" or "you weren't trying hard enough". I wish people would take us at our word that we have honestly tried everything and we do not have any more to give.

 

[willitpass]

I cannot imagine the work you put in for years and how frustrating and heartbreaking it must have been to not get any results. I can completely relate to that on a physical level. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how hard I worked, no matter how many different options I tried, it never got or gets better. As someone said, you eventually hit that exhaustion point. No one wants to accept we've hit that point so we get all of the "just try again" or "you weren't trying hard enough". I wish people would take us at our word that we have honestly tried everything and we do not have any more to give.

I've always tried to argue that if someone had cancer and had tried everything to no avail and said they were tired, would you tell them to give it another shot? Would you tell them they just didn't believe enough? As their body is getting ridden by tumors are we gonna tell them to keep on fighting and never stop trying new treatments? Most people will say no. Put them on hospice, keep them comfortable, and make memories. But for some reason mental health is different. Because it's invisible people don't seem to have an upper limit for how hard you have to fight. Sometimes when I've used the cancer analogy I've been met with "but depression is treatable, that's the difference". At what point are people going to finally be convinced that not all depression is treatable? I don't understand why people expect us to keep fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting. They wouldn't want to if they were in our shoes. Over a decade of fighting was all I had in me. I'm tired and I earned the right to say I'm done.

 

[struggles_inc]

Just the kind of stupid bullshit a normie would say. "Just change your mindset!" fuck them all.

I imagine it's so simple to think positively when you've never been punched in the gut so hard you're vomiting. Your loved one died? Oh yeah, just think positively. I always wondered how positive they would think if I ever put a gun to their heads.

That's all talk from people who are unaware how fucked up life is.

 

[divinemistress36]

I've always tried to argue that if someone had cancer and had tried everything to no avail and said they were tired, would you tell them to give it another shot? Would you tell them they just didn't believe enough? As their body is getting ridden by tumors are we gonna tell them to keep on fighting and never stop trying new treatments? Most people will say no. Put them on hospice, keep them comfortable, and make memories. But for some reason mental health is different. Because it's invisible people don't seem to have an upper limit for how hard you have to fight. Sometimes when I've used the cancer analogy I've been met with "but depression is treatable, that's the difference". At what point are people going to finally be convinced that not all depression is treatable? I don't understand why people expect us to keep fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting. They wouldn't want to if they were in our shoes. Over a decade of fighting was all I had in me. I'm tired and I earned the right to say I'm done.

I told my mom this the other day . She said cause one day a treatment could work . So one must continue to suffer immensely from depression for hopes that one day there may be a tiny chance something may help a little . Which is bullshit to me but it's a lot of people's attitudes

 

[Raindancer]

I've always tried to argue that if someone had cancer and had tried everything to no avail and said they were tired, would you tell them to give it another shot? Would you tell them they just didn't believe enough? As their body is getting ridden by tumors are we gonna tell them to keep on fighting and never stop trying new treatments? Most people will say no. Put them on hospice, keep them comfortable, and make memories. But for some reason mental health is different. Because it's invisible people don't seem to have an upper limit for how hard you have to fight. Sometimes when I've used the cancer analogy I've been met with "but depression is treatable, that's the difference". At what point are people going to finally be convinced that not all depression is treatable? I don't understand why people expect us to keep fighting and fighting and fighting and fighting. They wouldn't want to if they were in our shoes. Over a decade of fighting was all I had in me. I'm tired and I earned the right to say I'm done.

Yep, bingo and same with invisible illnesses. I do not understand the mentality of staying alive no matter what, except with cancer, then it's OK to go, like you said. All I can say is God help them if it happens to them.