A few words about SI

[sardonic laugh]

I hope my opinion will not be offensive to anyone and will not hurt anyone. I came to the conclusion that the users of this site greatly exaggerate SI, which in fact is not some kind of iron barrier, but an understanding of the subconscious that there is still something to live for. I have had many attempts at ctb, and I am well aware that I stopped not because of "SI",but because of the understanding that I still have something to live for. Discuss

 

[Catchingdabus27]

I'm curious to see this discussion. I've definitely been realizing SI comes in a lot of covert ways. That I never expected and want to but atm too tired to write details.

Will just say it can come about in involuntary mental & physical symptoms (?) / ways.

 

[blissfulness]

I have had many attempts at ctb, and I am well aware that I stopped not because of "SI",but because of the understanding that I still have something to live for.

SI will do as much as it can to keep you alive, maybe the understanding that you still have something to live for could be a part of it?

 

[sardonic laugh]

I'm curious to see this discussion. I've definitely been realizing SI comes in a lot of covert ways. That I never expected and want to but atm too tired to write details.

Will just say it can come about in involuntary mental & physical symptoms (?) / ways.

Man has free will, one way or another, if you want to do something, you will do it

SI will do as much as it can to keep you alive, maybe the understanding that you still have something to live for could be a part of it?

I don't know, but I am skeptical about the presence of instincts in humans and other higher primates. I think that my religious views partly influenced my position on SI, and yet, no matter how many of us think, we live to live, wanting to die is unnatural (just don't start telling me that this is not about you, I myself have suffered greatly from such a desire since I was 13, but I understand that this is not normal for a human.

 

[blissfulness]

I don't know, but I am skeptical about the presence of instincts in humans and other higher primates. I think that my religious views partly influenced my position on SI, and yet, no matter how many of us think, we live to live, wanting to die is unnatural (just don't start telling me that this is not about you, I myself have suffered greatly from such a desire since I was 13, but I understand that this is not normal for a human.

i'm curious... what makes you so skeptical about the presence of instincts? and why do you find it unnatural for wanting to die, and how might your religion influence it?

 

[Carrot]

Interesting perspective., not one that hascrossed my mind.

I agree with blissfulness on this.

Man has free will, one way or another, if you want to do something, you will do it

We don't know if we have free will. I'm not sure if we have free will, everything could be pre-determined, the state of the world, atoms is a certain way, and a nanosecond later (or "infinitely" small time we choose) the state of the world, atoms is changes and that depends on the previous state. Any thought. movement, behaviour could be simply atoms behaving in a certain way based on the previous state,it could be entirely deterministic. I'm not sure if true randomness exists in the world. You can flip a coin, roll a die, but everything depends on the previous state, material, height, air, starting position, how it was manufactured. And the starting position of the coin/die is a certain way. And so on. We have "randomness" that is good enough for our purposes, sometimes even used for security reasons and it's good enough for that, but nothing truly random.

 

[sardonic laugh]

i'm curious... what makes you so skeptical about the presence of instincts? and why do you find it unnatural for wanting to die, and how might your religion influence it?

Animals' lives are governed by instincts, they are driven only by them. If humans had instincts, then:
1. Why do some mothers abandon their children? There is an instinct of motherhood.
2. Why do many people refuse to have children? What about the instinct of reproduction?
As an Orthodox Christian, I subconsciously consider only natural death to be right for myself, although the desire to ctb has not left me for a very long time. In addition, life is really very fleeting, this thought consoles

 

[TBONTB]

I hope my opinion will not be offensive to anyone and will not hurt anyone. I came to the conclusion that the users of this site greatly exaggerate SI, which in fact is not some kind of iron barrier, but an understanding of the subconscious that there is still something to live for. I have had many attempts at ctb, and I am well aware that I stopped not because of "SI",but because of the understanding that I still have something to live for. Discuss

It seems pretty straightforward that fear exists, and part of its function is to keep us out of danger and harm...from an evolutionary perspective. And that the fear exists at an animal level below the level of conscious thought. This doesn't seem to mysterious to me, that the rational "I want to" will conflict with the brain stems "go on"

I once completely froze on a hiking trail with a gap in the trail that led onto a steep slope. I just couldn't move and my brain was stuck. After a while I realized if I fell I would probably just break a bone rather than dying and then I could move again. I wasn't suicidal at the time but it shire shows me how the brainstem can take over.

 

[secretghost]

from the dissociative perspective, dissociation occurs in everyone as a natural protective function, some more than others. Suicidality had a unique relationship to the ego and sense of will, and this can coexist with contradictory feelings. I think sometimes a survival "instinct" is more like our brain is not a singular Thing but billions of internal interactions and even if the most of you, or the part of you identifying as Self wants to die, there are bodily parts which do not and sometimes parts of your own personality I think. this is just my perspective, I'm in a kind of reverse situation I think but the same thing; I have parts of myself which act separate from the part of me talking to you so idk. Interesting thread I'll be watching

 

[sardonic laugh]

Think for yourself, who will have less "SI" work
1. A seriously ill old atheist before euthanasia
2. A young religious youth with a curable but severe mental disorder

The answer to the question will be the answer whether this "instinct" always works

 

[blissfulness]

Animals' lives are governed by instincts, they are driven only by them. If humans had instincts, then:
1. Why do some mothers abandon their children? There is an instinct of motherhood.
2. Why do many people refuse to have children? What about the instinct of reproduction?
As an Orthodox Christian, I subconsciously consider only natural death to be right for myself, although the desire to ctb has not left me for a very long time. In addition, life is really very fleeting, this thought consoles

for the first, i'll never truly know why this might happen because i'm not the mother, but trauma can definitely alter the brain and how it works, and along with different cultural beliefs, even just society in general, this can definitely drive people to make decisions that don't seem logical or even ethical

second, i honestly don't have a clue. i'd never have children myself, but that's because i don't feel like i'd be able to fullfill the needs of a child as a mother currently, along with generational trauma that i feel needs to end. this definitely outweighs my instinct for reproduction.

furthermore, what would you consider as a natural death?

 

[sardonic laugh]

for the first, i'll never truly know why this might happen because i'm not the mother, but trauma can definitely alter the brain and how it works, and along with different cultural beliefs, even just society in general, this can definitely drive people to make decisions that don't seem logical or even ethical

second, i honestly don't have a clue. i'd never have children myself, but that's because i don't feel like i'd be able to fullfill the needs of a child as a mother currently, along with generational trauma that i feel needs to end. this definitely outweighs my instinct for reproduction.

furthermore, what would you consider as a natural death?

To these situations we can add many more examples when the morality and will of a person overpower what is called instincts. For example, when husbands do not cheat on their wives, suppressing their "instinct" to spread their genes
Natural death for me is the one that I do not cause myself by my own will, violating God's plan for me. Many things in Christianity happen by the will and permission of God, but human life in this religion is too valuable for us to dispose of it ourselves.
I hope I will not be blocked for simply talking about my religious morality

 

[blissfulness]

I hope I will not be blocked for simply talking about my religious morality

not at all! you're being respectful with it, and everone has their own beliefs, as i'm not religious myself, wich is my own belief

To these situations we can add many more examples when the morality and will of a person overpower what is called instincts. For example, when husbands do not cheat on their wives, suppressing their "instinct" to spread their genes
Natural death for me is the one that I do not cause myself by my own will, violating God's plan for me. Many things in Christianity happen by the will and permission of God, but human life in this religion is too valuable for us to dispose of it ourselves.

i believe love and the instinct for reproducing are heavily correlated, and therefore the instinct for reproduction would be towards your partner right? and i guess the attraction for other people would just be temporary lust or infatuation, wich isn't a great thing.

for a natural death, its really hard to determine wether it was your doing because of the lifelong string of choises, and again religious beliefs

in your religion, if your human life is considered too valuable to dispose of yourself, what would make you feel the need to ctb? what is god's plan for you and would ctb defy it?

 

[sardonic laugh]

not at all! you're being respectful with it, and everone has their own beliefs, as i'm not religious myself, wich is my own belief


i believe love and the instinct for reproducing are heavily correlated, and therefore the instinct for reproduction would be towards your partner right? and i guess the attraction for other people would just be temporary lust or infatuation, wich isn't a great thing.

for a natural death, its really hard to determine wether it was your doing because of the lifelong string of choises, and again religious beliefs

in your religion, if your human life is considered too valuable to dispose of yourself, what would make you feel the need to ctb? what is god's plan for you and would ctb defy it?

Unrequited love and the strongest long-term attachment brought me to ctb time and time again. It's as if I don't know how to love back, it feels like my subconscious is specifically looking for a "beautiful, inaccessible ideal". It's an interesting question about the series of life choices, but on the other hand, for example, alcohol or smoking abuse is not necessarily a guaranteed death at 60...

 

[blissfulness]

Unrequited love and the strongest long-term attachment brought me to ctb time and time again. It's as if I don't know how to love back, it feels like my subconscious is specifically looking for a "beautiful, inaccessible ideal". It's an interesting question about the series of life choices, but on the other hand, for example, alcohol or smoking abuse is not necessarily a guaranteed death at 60...

i'm so sorry to hear that, i could only imagine the mental "hell" of failed attempts and attatchment struggles. is there a specific person you miss in your life? or maybe youre spending it looking?

 

[sardonic laugh]

i'm so sorry to hear that, i could only imagine the mental "hell" of failed attempts and attatchment struggles. is there a specific person you miss in your life? or maybe youre spending it looking?

Thank you so much for understanding, it's nice to hear such words. Yes, I miss the girl I was friends with two years ago. What kills me the most is the feeling that I myself behaved like a complete piece of shit with her, and the break in communication could have been avoided, and perhaps we could have even dated her

 

[blissfulness]

Thank you so much for understanding, it's nice to hear such words. Yes, I miss the girl I was friends with two years ago. What kills me the most is the feeling that I myself behaved like a complete piece of shit with her, and the break in communication could have been avoided, and perhaps we could have even dated her

that must hit deep, especially if you're still thinking of her years later. also, props to you for understanding any mistakes that happened with her. is she gone? maybe you're still able to reach out to her even for clarity, even if things wouldn't go perfect?

 

[FadeToBlack1109]

The thing about instincts is certainly an interesting topic and, as I've told OP in another thread, one that I've personally never given any thought.

There is a contradiction in your reasoning though, if that's okay for me to say: you claim that wanting to die is unnatural (let's just assume it is, for the sake of the argument), but we do have to acknowledge that there's lots of exceptions to this. Thousands of people end their lives everyday, yet this does not seem to change your point of view on this being an unnatural thing (which is fine, just bear with me)

At the same time you'll argue against the existence of primal instincts by the example of women abandoning their children.

So if you've previously established that exceptions are indeed a real thing (like people wanting to die, even if it's deemed unnatural), why would such an exception not be possible for mothers abandoning their children? Isn't it by this logic also possible that instincts are very much real but there's exceptions to it as well? Like SOME mothers abandoning their kids and SOME people wanting to die, when in both cases, the vast majority won't? This would also be further confirmed by different people experiencing different levels of SI. It's stronger for some and almost non-existent for others.

I guess my point is: something being unnatural does not invalidate it in any way, shape or form. Being gay is also not exactly helping human reproduction, but this does not mean homosexuality isn't real (Sorry if this is kind of a sensitive example, but I feel like it's a good one)

Still, I'll give this some more thought tonight. Luckily we can all have our own opinions. Either way, I 100% agree that instinct, fear and needs are three totally different things that are often treated interchangably.

 

[sardonic laugh]

that must hit deep, especially if you're still thinking of her years later. also, props to you for understanding any mistakes that happened with her. is she gone? maybe you're still able to reach out to her even for clarity, even if things wouldn't go perfect?

I tried to make peace many times, but alas. I was even told that it looks like stalking :(

The thing about instincts is certainly an interesting topic and, as I've told OP in another thread, one that I've personally never given any thought.

There is a contradiction in your reasoning though, if that's okay for me to say: you claim that wanting to die is unnatural (let's just assume it is, for the sake of the argument), but we do have to acknowledge that there's lots of exceptions to this. Thousands of people end their lives everyday, yet this does not seem to change your point of view on this being an unnatural thing (which is fine, just bear with me)

People generally do a lot of unnatural things... because we have will, freedom of choice

 

[blissfulness]

I tried to make peace many times, but alas. I was even told that it looks like stalking :(

People generally do a lot of unnatural things... because we have will, freedom of choice

that must hurt real bad... i wish you the best in life truly

 

[FadeToBlack1109]

I tried to make peace many times, but alas. I was even told that it looks like stalking :(

People generally do a lot of unnatural things... because we have will, freedom of choice

Well, free will is a complicating thing in and of itself. From what I remember, neuro-science has a strong argument that free will is in fact an illusion. It was something about the decision-making in our brains being activated by firing neurons, which have to be triggered first (by external factors?) some nanoseconds beforehand. Something like that I think. I'll leave this to someone smarter than me though, before I start spreading pseudo science

Still really glad for this discussion, it really got me thinking. And you do have my sympathies for your personal story, I wish you all the best

 

[kopebaldy]

Does being a coward and pussy out count as SI? Cause that's me lol.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I am sure free will is only an ilusion. The world is like a big cellular automata, comletely deterministic but also inpredictable.
So we cannot commit suicide unless our time to die has come. This feels like survival instinct or like "I could miss something good".