Your arguments requested...

[Kyrok]

If you were to try to persuade a pro-lifer that suicide is rational, how would you argue the point?
(Not arguments by examples, but argue solely on principles?)

 

[siray]

They won't even try to understand.

 

[Heart Shards]

All they think about is themselves, they don't care about our suffering.

 

[NorthAmericanQc]

They're so egoist. They want us to stay alive because it's irrational to them. So some of us do to please them while we keep suffering.

 

[Kukubananas]

1) Not everyone is brought up with the same circumstances and goes through the same things in life. Someone may be dealing with the grief of losing a loved one, the emotional trauma of abuse growing up, mental illness or even a physical illness. They could have lived a life of suffering, abuse or torment and have PTSD from past events. While you may not have had to deal with any of that in your life, someone who's in a constant state of suffering should have their own choice of what goes on in their life.

2) I didn't ask to be born, and I'm eventually going to die - why can't this be on my own terms?

3) If they're pro-choice about abortion laws why can't they be open minded enough to see the choices in this? I should get to decide what to do with my body. Not some freak car accident, someone murdering me, me getting sick, etc etc. I should have the choice of how and what to do with my body.

 

[Johnnythefox]

Pro lifer - "why do you want to die?"

Reply - "because of people like you"

 

[Redt2go]

Honestly it's subjective so everyone will have their own argument.

Mine is that I feel I've been on Earth long enough. I don't feel the need to stay simply to grow old. Especially all the deterioration that comes with growing old. Everythingto me, entertainment, work etc, is all a distraction until death and a means for you to connect with other people. I'm a narcissist and don't connect with and love people in the way that they love me which always makes me feel next to people and not connected. Whenever I spend time with people I always feel like a spectator. Well, I can spectate from heaven. Also I do believe that in my case suicide is extremely selfish, slightly evil, given that depression is treatable and that my family is already broken and needs me. However being narcissistic, I once again am putting my needs above everyone else in my life.

TL/DR: I'm a bored spectator zombie. An NPC in life if you will.

I do think some suicides are irrational. For example ctb as revenge especially to traumatize family by shooting yourself in front of them.

 

[Jiva]

For my person it is easy. I have pains and my illness is hopeless.

 

[Roberto]

Since we are grown up persons, and we have complete capability mentally to decide over our life we have the right to choose when to leave our life. Nobody has the right to intervene. It's our life. Everyone has to care their own life, and let others live the life as they want.
We don't have to live to make others happier.
We don't have to live because other have fear of death.
We don't have to live because others have found sense in this world.
That's all.

 

[WayOut]

If you were to try to persuade a pro-lifer that suicide is rational, how would you argue the point?
(Not arguments by examples, but argue solely on principles?)

You can't.

If you want to ctb, you do it. If you are at that point, winning an argument is nothing more than a pyrrhic victory.

 

[Redt2go]

Since we are grown up persons, and we have complete capability mentally to decide over our life we have the right to choose when to leave our life. Nobody has the right to intervene. It's our life. Everyone has to care their own life, and let others live the life as they want.
We don't have to live to make others happier.
We don't have to live because other have fear of death.
We don't have to live because others have found sense in this world.
That's all.

Nicely succinct

 

[989-X]

I'd say the only reason they don't understand is because they're too blind to see the harsh realities of life because they're too busy indulging in their own hedonistic activities and following the ingenuine social justice trend they force without looking at things like this from all perspectives. They continuously talk about how much supposedly people have to live for, but those same exact arguments are ususally coming from the ones that have had relatively relaxed or stable lives.

It's amazing what you can find when you just think "I wonder what it's like for x person" and look into it before being so judgemental.

 

[Chinaski]

You can't.

If you want to ctb, you do it. If you are at that point, winning an argument is nothing more than a pyrrhic victory.

Absolutely this. Why would anyone *need* to persuade a "pro-lifer" (read: non-suicidal person) that suicide is Good, Actually?

We are all at liberty to ctb. Persuading a "pro lifer" to shift from an essentially natural position does not help anyone defeat the survival instinct, or overcome their own cowardice and fear, in no way would it make ctb any easier than it already is. Seriously, l don't understand the importance of this, at all.

 

[Misanthrope]

Why would I bother? I have autonomy over myself. I would only bother in legislative places. Beyond that, it seems like wasted effort. Effort better spent convincing parents why they should vaccinate their kids and not listen to celebrities as a source of medical advice which is resulting in kids dying of measles all over again.

But if obligated outside of that I would probably ask them a series of questions.

If you were set on fire would you be able to enjoy a walk in nature?

While on fire would you appreciate your friends and family or would you be somewhat distracted by being on fire?

While on fire would you still be able to enjoy a meal out?

While on fire would you derive any entertainment from media?

If you were set on fire would you put yourself out?

why is that?

What would you do if you cannot put yourself out? That you have tried multiple methods of not being on fire but to no avail?

How long do you think you would last in that state of pain before you found it intolerable and began going insane?

I would then present a scenario that there is a swimming pool you can put yourself out in. But by jumping in there you ruin the swimming pool for everyone currently swimming in there. How long are you willing to hold off for so people get to enjoy the pool while you are on fire? How many years is acceptable? Is it never acceptable?

If it is never acceptable, can I set you on fire, put you out before you die and leave you in a chronic state of pain ever after? If the answer is no? Why is that? Because you don't want to be in pain and suffer?

 

[WayOut]

Why would I bother? I have autonomy over myself. I would only bother in legislative places. Beyond that, it seems like wasted effort. Effort better spent convincing parents why they should vaccinate their kids and not listen to celebrities as a source of medical advice which is resulting in kids dying of measles all over again.

But if obligated outside of that I would probably ask them a series of questions.

If you were set on fire would you be able to enjoy a walk in nature?

While on fire would you appreciate your friends and family or would you be somewhat distracted by being on fire?

While on fire would you still be able to enjoy a meal out?

While on fire would you derive any entertainment from media?

If you were set on fire would you put yourself out?

why is that?

What would you do if you cannot put yourself out? That you have tried multiple methods of not being on fire but to no avail?

How long do you think you would last in that state of pain before you found it intolerable and began going insane?

I would then present a scenario that there is a swimming pool you can put yourself out in. But by jumping in there you ruin the swimming pool for everyone currently swimming in there. How long are you willing to hold off for so people get to enjoy the pool while you are on fire? How many years is acceptable? Is it never acceptable?

If it is never acceptable, can I set you on fire, put you out before you die and leave you in a chronic state of pain ever after? If the answer is no? Why is that? Because you don't want to be in pain and suffer?

In depth and complicated. You won't win any argument with all that. TL;DR.

You could just ctb. Easy peasy.

 

[color_me_gone]

Pro lifer - "why do you want to die?"
Reply - "because of people like you"

Thanks, Johnny, I needed that!

But really though, a lot of good points here.
Also agree with WayOut and Chinaski, why to care?
Also like Misanthrope analogy of being on fire, a good one for some of the people suffering here.
Thanks!

 

[Misanthrope]

In depth and complicated. You won't win any argument with all that. TL;DR.

You could just ctb. Easy peasy.

I was addressing the question as requested. I think it is obvious what my stance is. Do you not ever address hypothetical questions? I find them interesting personally.

 

[Deleted member 1496]

You'd have to find out why they think a personal choice is irrational.

 

[WayOut]

I was addressing the question as requested. I think it is obvious what my stance is. Do you not ever address hypothetical questions? I find them interesting personally.

Yes, I do address hypothetical questions where I see merit. I wasn't attacking your comment. Just responding to it. I hoped you would see this.

 

[Deleted member 1496]

If being pro-choice was not liking mayonnaise:

Here's some mayo.

Thanks, but I don't like mayo.

Have you tried mayo?

Yes, I don't like it.

Have you tried this brand of mayo?

Yes, I've tried five brands of mayo. I don't like it.

Have you tried every single brand of mayo every produced from around the world?

I don't have the funds nor the desire to fly around the world to try mayo, especially when I don't like the brands locally.

Then you can't really say you don't like mayo if you haven't tried them all. If you haven't tried them all, you're being lazy. And not open-minded.

Why do I need to like mayo?

Because I brought it for you. You're being somewhat ungrateful and selfish. If you don't like mayo, you need to see a professional. You must not be eating it the right way. A professional can teach you to like mayo. There's something wrong with you if don't want to eat mayo. Everyone else likes mayo.

(At the professional's office) Let the mayo glide over your tongue. Let your tongue absorb and enjoy the flavors, the texture. Don't think about it, just trust your tongue. That's the key; trust in yourself.

Uh, I don't like it.

You can't trust your tongue right now. You need to practice.

(years later) Okay, I've tried every week for several years. I still don't like mayo.

That's not what supposed to happen. It's irritating me that you don't like mayo by now. Are you putting the mayo in your orange juice?

No, I am not doing that. It's not that.

You've haven't tried long enough. Try it for thirty more years; maybe you'll like it then. What's the worst that can happen? So what if everything you eat tastes gross because of mayo; the achievement is that you're eating mayo! You must learn to like mayo. Keep eating it, even if you don't like it. Even when it makes you vomit. It's irrational that you don't like mayo. It's not normal. Oh, and be yourself!

Okay, I brought a gelatinous spam sandwich with mayo to try yet another way to see if I might like mayo. Professional, I brought a spam sandwich for you too.

A spam sandwich? Spam is gross.

 

[JustAboutDone]

How does one define a "pro-lifer"? Am asking out of general curiosity - as much as in the context of the initial question. Is a pro-lifer someone who insists you live out life until it's natural end? Or a close family member who loves you and wants you not leave this "earthly place"?

It's an interesting topic - and a conversation I regularly have with my current CPN when they try and do a risk assessment and ascertain whether I have 'capacity' and whether if I am thinking suicidal thoughts whether that means I do not have 'capacity'

I don't understand why wanting to end my life my time my place my way - makes me, in some way, mentally impaired? I find that puzzling.

 

[TheCrow]

Why would I bother? I have autonomy over myself. I would only bother in legislative places. Beyond that, it seems like wasted effort. Effort better spent convincing parents why they should vaccinate their kids and not listen to celebrities as a source of medical advice which is resulting in kids dying of measles all over again.

But if obligated outside of that I would probably ask them a series of questions.

If you were set on fire would you be able to enjoy a walk in nature?

While on fire would you appreciate your friends and family or would you be somewhat distracted by being on fire?

While on fire would you still be able to enjoy a meal out?

While on fire would you derive any entertainment from media?

If you were set on fire would you put yourself out?

why is that?

What would you do if you cannot put yourself out? That you have tried multiple methods of not being on fire but to no avail?

How long do you think you would last in that state of pain before you found it intolerable and began going insane?

I would then present a scenario that there is a swimming pool you can put yourself out in. But by jumping in there you ruin the swimming pool for everyone currently swimming in there. How long are you willing to hold off for so people get to enjoy the pool while you are on fire? How many years is acceptable? Is it never acceptable?

If it is never acceptable, can I set you on fire, put you out before you die and leave you in a chronic state of pain ever after? If the answer is no? Why is that? Because you don't want to be in pain and suffer?

If being pro-choice was not liking mayonnaise:

Here's some mayo.

Thanks, but I don't like mayo.

Have you tried mayo?

Yes, I don't like it.

Have you tried this brand of mayo?

Yes, I've tried five brands of mayo. I don't like it.

Have you tried every single brand of mayo every produced from around the world?

I don't have the funds nor the desire to fly around the world to try mayo, especially when I don't like the brands locally.

Then you can't really say you don't like mayo if you haven't tried them all. If you haven't tried them all, you're being lazy. And not open-minded.

Why do I need to like mayo?

Because I brought it for you. You're being somewhat ungrateful and selfish. If you don't like mayo, you need to see a professional. You must not be eating it the right way. A professional can teach you to like mayo. There's something wrong with you if don't want to eat mayo. Everyone else likes mayo.

(At the professional's office) Let the mayo glide over your tongue. Let your tongue absorb and enjoy the flavors, the texture. Don't think about it, just trust your tongue. That's the key; trust in yourself.

Uh, I don't like it.

You can't trust your tongue right now. You need to practice.

(years later) Okay, I've tried every week for several years. I still don't like mayo.

That's not what supposed to happen. It's irritating me that you don't like mayo by now. Are you putting the mayo in your orange juice?

No, I am not doing that. It's not that.

You've haven't tried long enough. Try it for thirty more years; maybe you'll like it then. What's the worst that can happen? So what if everything you eat tastes gross because of mayo; the achievement is that you're eating mayo! You must learn to like mayo. Keep eating it, even if you don't like it. Even when it makes you vomit. It's irrational that you don't like mayo. It's not normal. Oh, and be yourself!

Okay, I brought a gelatinous spam sandwich with mayo to try yet another way to see if I might like mayo. Professional, I brought a spam sandwich for you too.

A spam sandwich? Spam is gross.

Exactly.

 

[color_me_gone]

How does one define a "pro-lifer"?

A question that could get deeply philosophical.

But for my simple brain, I like this one from the Urban Dictionary:

"Very often, a pro-lifer is a bible beater without a grasp on anything except their futile task of trying scientifically prove a book without risking disproving it."

 

[ReadyasEver]

I look at this way, I keep it very basic. If someone is pro-life, that is fine. They have every right to believe in this way. The same goes for pro-choice. I will not belittle or degrade you on your beliefs, please do not interfere or belittle me on mine. It is perfectly fine that we agree to disagree. I like Misanthrope's hypothetical situation.

 

[Funkbunny]

I wouldn't. You can't polish a turd so why try?

 

[Arak]

'If you were to try to persuade a pro-lifer that suicide is rational, how would you argue the point?'

Doesn't it matter what the situation is like ? Extremists will say 'never', other people will think that suicide when near death, incurable, in great pain makes sense. And yet another catergory ... suppose one is an elderly man, who just lost his business, went bankrupt, is facing imminent homelessness, has no retirement funds, unable to pay medical bills, all alone, no help available ...

Are we not lumping too much together ? I know that American society can be pretty extreme in that regard ... I know my position !

 

[Zzzzz]

Suicide is no less rational than life is. It's subjective and based on what people want. If someone wants to live at all costs, suicide would be irrational. If someone wants all of their pain to end permanently, suicide would be the logical choice.

If suicide was not illegal and taboo, a lot more people would be gone . It would be easier to ctb.

 

[Retched]

If being pro-choice was not liking mayonnaise:

Here's some mayo.

Thanks, but I don't like mayo.

Have you tried mayo?

Yes, I don't like it.

Have you tried this brand of mayo?

Yes, I've tried five brands of mayo. I don't like it.

Have you tried every single brand of mayo every produced from around the world?

I don't have the funds nor the desire to fly around the world to try mayo, especially when I don't like the brands locally.

Then you can't really say you don't like mayo if you haven't tried them all. If you haven't tried them all, you're being lazy. And not open-minded.

Why do I need to like mayo?

Because I brought it for you. You're being somewhat ungrateful and selfish. If you don't like mayo, you need to see a professional. You must not be eating it the right way. A professional can teach you to like mayo. There's something wrong with you if don't want to eat mayo. Everyone else likes mayo.

(At the professional's office) Let the mayo glide over your tongue. Let your tongue absorb and enjoy the flavors, the texture. Don't think about it, just trust your tongue. That's the key; trust in yourself.

Uh, I don't like it.

You can't trust your tongue right now. You need to practice.

(years later) Okay, I've tried every week for several years. I still don't like mayo.

That's not what supposed to happen. It's irritating me that you don't like mayo by now. Are you putting the mayo in your orange juice?

No, I am not doing that. It's not that.

You've haven't tried long enough. Try it for thirty more years; maybe you'll like it then. What's the worst that can happen? So what if everything you eat tastes gross because of mayo; the achievement is that you're eating mayo! You must learn to like mayo. Keep eating it, even if you don't like it. Even when it makes you vomit. It's irrational that you don't like mayo. It's not normal. Oh, and be yourself!

Okay, I brought a gelatinous spam sandwich with mayo to try yet another way to see if I might like mayo. Professional, I brought a spam sandwich for you too.

A spam sandwich? Spam is gross.

Awesome post!

 

[Redt2go]

Awesome post!

Agreed this is great. An amazing post and a great argument. Original?

 

[Zzzzz]

I look at this way, I keep it very basic. If someone is pro-life, that is fine. They have every right to believe in this way. The same goes for pro-choice. I will not belittle or degrade you on your beliefs, please do not interfere or belittle me on mine. It is perfectly fine that we agree to disagree. I like Misanthrope's hypothetical situation.

Anti Choice is pro suffering and pro servitude. They don't care about life , they only want people to live just long enough to be of service to society. That's it. They don't care about individuals sufferings . This is not an admirable belief . Suicidal people deserve better than to die like criminals. They deserve a more humane death. There is no ethical reason to prohibit people from having a convenient, compassionate death .