You can't out think yourself.

[Lookoutbelow]

Trying to use your mind to figure out your mind is like using a flashlight to shine on itself to see its inner workings. First of all you can't shine a flashlight on itself unless you use something reflective. Even then the light cannot penetrate the flashlight case to see how it actually works. Our mind is the same. We cannot think about our own thoughts because thoughts only project out. Then when we vocalize them like on this site and we get a reflection back in the form of feedback, that reflection is only surface level. It cannot shine a light on the actually inner workings of our thoughts. So therefore I will never truly know why I want to commit suicide. All I can know is that I do want to.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

I used to meditate a lot in the past and sometimes got into very deep states of jhana and sometimes I would become extremely aware of the fact that I was an observer observering myself !!!
How can this be ?

 

[hi-okbye]

this is a very interesting way of viewing it. i like it.
based off of what comes out of the flashlight, we can sometimes take a guess of why, but i guess we'll never truly know.

 

[Lookoutbelow]

I used to meditate a lot in the past and sometimes got into very deep states of jhana and sometimes I would become extremely aware of the fact that I was an observer observering myself !!!
How can this be ?

Right? I was into all of that stuff for awhile. Zen, Buddhism, Taoism. I truly get that only I can answer my own questions. The problem is I don't have the answers. So I continue to seek outside of myself, knowing that I will never will find an answer. There is no answer because there is nothing to question. It is what it is. No questions, no answers. Yet, here I am questioning it. Fucking insanity!

 

[lalius]

Your right plato, now get out of your cavern ^^

 

[Lookoutbelow]

Your right plato, now get out of your cavern ^^

How? Plus this is much different then Plato's fire in a cave analogy.

 

[lalius]

I was just making a bad pun sorry ^^. I don't find it much different as you can extrapolate yours and plato's reflexion . Nothing is real. Every thing is just projection you can only partially grasp and consider it reality

I do strongly agree with you tho ^^

 

[Lookoutbelow]

I was just making a bad pun sorry ^^. I don't find it much different as you can extrapolate yours and plato's reflexion . Nothing is real. Every thing is just projection you can only partially grasp and consider it reality

No apologies necessary. I was not offended. Life is just fucking weird. I don't think we could ever possibly come close to understanding any of it.

 

[lalius]

I like to think we could do it actually... In some thousand years maybe. Brain is just another fucked up, bugged, contraption with input and output. Just a fuck ton of it.

But yeah I agree that it can't be done subjectively

 

[Sad Paradise]

"When you look into the abyss for too long, the abyss looks back at you." In your case, you were the lantern projecting light around you, trying to give and show the best of yourself to the world, but you didn't receive enough light back for them to see inside you... in fact, I think a good portion of people has tried at least once to show the best of themselves. Perhaps you tried to radiate too much light into your life, and now you see it as it truly is. This reflected back to you negatively, and in the end, you've reached the decision that nothing is worth it anymore. I'm just interpreting based on what you wrote!

 

[Lookoutbelow]

"When you look into the abyss for too long, the abyss looks back at you." In your case, you were the lantern projecting light around you, trying to give and show the best of yourself to the world, but you didn't receive enough light back for them to see inside you... in fact, I think a good portion of people has tried at least once to show the best of themselves. Perhaps you tried to radiate too much light into your life, and now you see it as it truly is. This reflected back to you negatively, and in the end, you've reached the decision that nothing is worth it anymore. I'm just interpreting based on what you wrote!

Sounds good.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Interesting. Is this really how you experience your ideation? I guess mine has always been less abstract. For me- it's been more- I hate these aspects about life. Are there ways I can meaningfully change them? No. Ok- then, how long am I willing to put up with them so as not to upset other people? 33 years so far.

So, is yours more an abstract intense inner feeling/ want rather than a cause and effect type of thing?

 

[Lookoutbelow]

Interesting. Is this really how you experience your ideation? I guess mine has always been less abstract. For me- it's been more- I hate these aspects about life. Are there ways I can meaningfully change them? No. Ok- then, how long am I willing to put up with them so as not to upset other people? 33 years so far.

So, is yours more an abstract intense inner feeling/ want rather than a cause and effect type of thing?

Yes, for sure. Very abstract internalized feeling.

 

[King Ashoka]

There is no answer because there is nothing to question. It is what it is. No questions, no answers. Yet, here I am questioning it.

Respected sir, your philosophy is very interesting and refreshing. It's rare to see such deep insight. I like this line.

 

[Davey36000]

I'm not sure this is correct, as people have their own reasons as to why they are sad, angry, depressed, and want to commit suicide. Usually it's an accumulation of enough pain because of various events on a person's life.

I'm also not sure about the reflection part...

Sometimes thoughts seem to be "mine", but then like another poster here said, it seems I am the one observing the thoughts and it's as if they were completely alien to me.

Some eastern philosophers, spiritual persons and religion would call it your karma or conditioning. Your habitual thought patterns or conditioning or mind or causal bidy, that come from many lives prior, including this one. And it is your karma that you will bring with you to the next life.

So some spiritual people focus on developing the mind. Through meditation they get rid of their karma, they purify their minds and bring their minds to higher developments.

This is hard to know at first for most of us unless we could see our past lives and see if this actually true, if we acted in similar ways to which we act now (although always hoping for an improvement in positive qualities).

Finally ,a lot of spiritual sages will say, including the Buddha, that your mind, as well as your body, are not your real Self.

I really suggest people to try psychedelics. Even if it's just once. And it can be a light dose too. This really opens peoples' minds to... Their own minds. And to how little we know. And how many illusions we live in, etc etc... It's really very interesting.

 

[King Ashoka]

I'm not sure this is correct, as people have their own reasons as to why they are sad, angry, depressed, and want to commit suicide. Usually it's an accumulation of enough pain because of various events on a person's life.

I'm also not sure about the reflection part...

Sometimes thoughts seem to be "mine", but then like another poster here said, it seems I am the one observing the thoughts and it's as if they were completely alien to me.

Some eastern philosophers, spiritual persons and religion would call it your karma or conditioning. Your habitual thought patterns or conditioning or mind or causal bidy, that come from many lives prior, including this one. And it is your karma that you will bring with you to the next life.

So some spiritual people focus on developing the mind. Through meditation they get rid of their karma, they purify their minds and bring their minds to higher developments.

This is hard to know at first for most of us unless we could see our past lives and see if this actually true, if we acted in similar ways to which we act now (although always hoping for an improvement in positive qualities).

Finally ,a lot of spiritual sages will say, including the Buddha, that your mind, as well as your body, are not your real Self.

I really suggest people to try psychedelics. Even if it's just once. And it can be a light dose too. This really opens peoples' minds to... Their own minds. And to how little we know. And how many illusions we live in, etc etc... It's really very interesting.

What the fuck, you are talking about karma here. Please keep religion out of here.

 

[Davey36000]

What the fuck, you are talking about karma here. Please keep religion out of here.

Ok forget the word karma, just think Conditioning, habitual thought patterns, it's basically the same thing.

It usually has a different meaning in certain schools of practice, and really the "vengeful/punishment" meaning that some people think it does.It's just your history as a person in general.

In reality there is no God who is punishing anyone or anything that punishes.

 

[Specific_Milk]

Trying to use your mind to figure out your mind is like using a flashlight to shine on itself to see its inner workings. First of all you can't shine a flashlight on itself unless you use something reflective. Even then the light cannot penetrate the flashlight case to see how it actually works. Our mind is the same. We cannot think about our own thoughts because thoughts only project out. Then when we vocalize them like on this site and we get a reflection back in the form of feedback, that reflection is only surface level. It cannot shine a light on the actually inner workings of our thoughts. So therefore I will never truly know why I want to commit suicide. All I can know is that I do want to.

that's the mystery of consciousness. We ARE able to think about thinking. Meta thinking is what sets us humans apart. The limit i'd say is our ability to understand consciousness. That's when your analogy makes sense but not about meta thinking itself

 

[Hotsackage]

I try telling myself this with my ocd, it doesn't listen lol

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

Ok forget the word karma, just think Conditioning, habitual thought patterns, it's basically the same thing.

It usually has a different meaning in certain schools of practice, and really the "vengeful/punishment" meaning that some people think it does.It's just your history as a person in general.

In reality there is no God who is punishing anyone or anything that punishes.

Do you believe in any god or creator ?
I don't believe in the biblical god yet struggle with how everything came into existence.
I struggle with both religious gods and darwinism.
Nothing makes any sense to me.

 

[hermestrimegistus]

Do you believe in any god or creator ?
I don't believe in the biblical god yet struggle with how everything came into existence.
I struggle with both religious gods and darwinism.
Nothing makes any sense to me.

just a suggestion, look into ontological mathmatics

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

just a suggestion, look into ontological mathmatics

Thanks for this, It looks really interesting. Never heard of it before. I've looked into allsorts of stuff but never found anything that fits how reality works.
I'm gonna read some articles on this later on.

 

[Nikalakon]

Perhaps it is time to let the mind go. To let the thoughts go. Your existence is not (solely) your thoughts, you exist outside of these thoughts. The feeling of breathing, the sentiment you experience when looking at the the sunrise, the emotion of sadness & despair or joy & happiness, they are the true essence of who you are. Many over the course of history have believed that our thoughts define who we are. But more likely it is that we feel first and then our mind tries to rationalize it. I love this person and so I find rational reasons to explain why, not the opposite as in I found the right person to love based on some rational criteria so I love them. The mind is just trying to make sense of everything that it "feels" as it tries to make sense of "reality". The true reality is that your dark sentiments are what they are. Instead of trying to rationalize them which, in the end, even if you succeeded, would give you what? Nothing of substance that would modify these said sentiments. That is, unless these sentiments are due to some very pragmatic issue, but this doesn't seem to be the case here. Rather, instead of trying to make sense of your dark sentiments, you can try to just accept them with equanimity.

Bottom line, trying to "understand" the world is the true insanity, not the world itself. The world itself is what it is. This is not to be taken with cynicism as in "it is what it is, oh well..." but more as in "how peaceful it is to be able to accept that I can just dismiss the meanderings of the mind"

Not sure if this helps at all. Sorry if this confuses you more than anything.

 

[HouseofMortok]

Do you believe in any god or creator ?
I don't believe in the biblical god yet struggle with how everything came into existence.
I struggle with both religious gods and darwinism.
Nothing makes any sense to me.

From what was wrote up top, it gets me thinking, consciousness is God, God-like anyhow.

Imagine if everyone could be the observer that someone mentioned, usually the observer has all the insight, think of when people trip and the 'ego drop' everything is bliss, no pretenses. All the bullshit goes. Humans would do better, but instead, majority are just molded to fit the narrative so people can have a 5 yacht cause we like (or think we) to consume. So we're easy to manipulate. Ever feel like your problems are gaslit by the world? You're not alone. The top cats have got to fall so we can break free mentally for each other.

Imagine if nukes went off, the wealthy would survive so that's crap, but mass banding together would happen for poverished survivors, you got no choice but to band together and rebuild, much like after world war 2 with the boomers and into this mess, its using a mass bonding situation to heal for better though than to be used up as modern slaves down the line, feel like older generations have thrown a lot of people down the river and have looked the other way over alot of trauma.

Fuck Saville, fuck BBC, fuck you gaslighting Pro Life counts. My body, my choice. Consciousness is a curse when the majority use it and allow themselves to be used by it and blissfully ignore suffering and playing morale crusader, fuck you. Yous are the mentally ill.

 

[Davey36000]

Do you believe in any god or creator ?
I don't believe in the biblical god yet struggle with how everything came into existence.
I struggle with both religious gods and darwinism.
Nothing makes any sense to me.

Maybe God exists maybe not but that thinking will not help much.

We know what Science says, Big Bang...

But something obviously set the "wheels" in motion, right?

Even if it was possible to find the exact answer, it wouldn't necessarily help much in practical terms.

But if you look enough you might find answers to a lot of stuff, which ancient people knew, which only now Science has verified with microscopes and stuff.

Some Amazon tribes say "everything is spirit", literally everything, microbes, plants, etc...

In some Buddhist/Hinduism texts they talk about the existence of atoms and how each atom contains a Universe and the atoms of that Universe contain more Universes and it goes on and on... I could link the references for you if you want.

 

[NeedAnEscape]

I never thought about this before. It explains so much. I always struggle to articulate my own thoughts and desires, and I view it as a personal failing of mine. But, maybe, I can give myself a bit more credit. We can never fully comprehend our own minds.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

Maybe God exists maybe not but that thinking will not help much.

We know what Science says, Big Bang...

But something obviously set the "wheels" in motion, right?

Even if it was possible to find the exact answer, it wouldn't necessarily help much in practical terms.

But if you look enough you might find answers to a lot of stuff, which ancient people knew, which only now Science has verified with microscopes and stuff.

Some Amazon tribes say "everything is spirit", literally everything, microbes, plants, etc...

In some Buddhist/Hinduism texts they talk about the existence of atoms and how each atom contains a Universe and the atoms of that Universe contain more Universes and it goes on and on... I could link the references for you if you want.

Thanks, yes I'd be Interested in references to this.

Perhaps it is time to let the mind go. To let the thoughts go. Your existence is not (solely) your thoughts, you exist outside of these thoughts. The feeling of breathing, the sentiment you experience when looking at the the sunrise, the emotion of sadness & despair or joy & happiness, they are the true essence of who you are. Many over the course of history have believed that our thoughts define who we are. But more likely it is that we feel first and then our mind tries to rationalize it. I love this person and so I find rational reasons to explain why, not the opposite as in I found the right person to love based on some rational criteria so I love them. The mind is just trying to make sense of everything that it "feels" as it tries to make sense of "reality". The true reality is that your dark sentiments are what they are. Instead of trying to rationalize them which, in the end, even if you succeeded, would give you what? Nothing of substance that would modify these said sentiments. That is, unless these sentiments are due to some very pragmatic issue, but this doesn't seem to be the case here. Rather, instead of trying to make sense of your dark sentiments, you can try to just accept them with equanimity.

Bottom line, trying to "understand" the world is the true insanity, not the world itself. The world itself is what it is. This is not to be taken with cynicism as in "it is what it is, oh well..." but more as in "how peaceful it is to be able to accept that I can just dismiss the meanderings of the mind"

Not sure if this helps at all. Sorry if this confuses you more than anything.

Yeah, a lot of this makes sense : I guess it's best to just let go as best we can of thoughts and trying to understand things that probably have no answers anyway.

 

[dreambound]

i apologize in advance for having to resort to quotes but.......'when thought seeks to change itself,
trying to be or not to be this or that, it merely perpetuates itself under a different name.'
--jiddu krishnamurti

 

[whateverr]

Trying to use your mind to figure out your mind is like using a flashlight to shine on itself to see its inner workings. First of all you can't shine a flashlight on itself unless you use something reflective. Even then the light cannot penetrate the flashlight case to see how it actually works. Our mind is the same. We cannot think about our own thoughts because thoughts only project out. Then when we vocalize them like on this site and we get a reflection back in the form of feedback, that reflection is only surface level. It cannot shine a light on the actually inner workings of our thoughts. So therefore I will never truly know why I want to commit suicide. All I can know is that I do want to.

Suicide isn't a thoughtful action, though. It's an emotional one. You can only outfeel yourself when it comes to suicide, not outthink yourself.
Also, you don't need to outthink/feel yourself. Just your problems.

 

[Davey36000]

Thanks, yes I'd be Interested in references to this.

Yeah, a lot of this makes sense : I guess it's best to just let go as best we can of thoughts and trying to understand things that probably have no answers anyway.

From Wikipedia:

The Vaisheshika school is known for its insights in naturalism.[4][5] It is a form of atomism in natural philosophy.[6] It postulated that all objects in the physical universe are reducible to paramāṇu (atoms), and one's experiences are derived from the interplay of substance (a function of atoms, their number and their spatial arrangements), quality, activity, commonness, particularity and inherence.[7] Everything was composed of atoms, qualities emerged from aggregates of atoms, but the aggregation and nature of these atoms was predetermined by cosmic forces. Ajivika metaphysics included a theory of atoms which was later adapted in the Vaiśeṣika school.[8]

From Buddhism:

From the Avatamsaka Sutra - "If untold buddha-lands are reduced to atoms, In one atom are untold lands, And as in one, So in each. The atoms to which these buddha-lands are reduced in an instant are unspeakable, And so are the atoms of continuous reduction moment to moment Going on for untold eons; These atoms contain lands unspeakably many, And the atoms in these lands are even harder to tell of.