Would you agree that many young people's depression is due to their unrealistic expectations?

[Sprite_Geist]

No I disagree - to an extent. Young people want to live in a society where necessities are affordable, and with the possibility of being able to save up for a house. These are normal expectations, and ones which many have had in previous generations. Plus I do not believe that refusing to deal with the harshness of reality makes a person coddled. Some people simply do not wish to experience needless suffering and pain, and this is okay. In previous generations there was a culture of silence, in which you were expected to absorb whatever pain you have... just for the sake of it. In the current climate, though, this is slowly changing. People no longer have a desire to "tough it out" because an outdated machismo mindset dictates so.

 

[Deleted member 8579]

They could, but the simpler explanation IMO is that people make choices.

To quote BottomlessPit:

"There can be no free will in a universe where the law of cause and effect governs everything. All we think, say, and do is preceded and influenced by prior causes and conditions. No choice appears in a vacuum, we are all part of a long chain of causation. To believe in free will is to believe that we are somehow unaffected by the laws of physics..."

 

[Apricity]

iphones

playstation

ipad

Xbox is worth it tho, just saying.

 

[Thaneem]

I don't hate the kids who kill themselves over an ipad. I hate the kids who want to kill themselves over an ipad and then don't.
If we're debating over whether or not all people have the same ability to have the same level of self awareness, I guess I'd say that those who lack the ability to make the choice that existing is superior to having an xbox - whether through genes or environment - should probably not be here.
Like, I don't really care where being a superficial, weak POS comes from. If you are genetically incapable of not being that, just die.

 

[Apricity]

I don't hate the kids who kill themselves over an ipad. I hate the kids who want to kill themselves over an ipad and then don't.
If we're debating over whether or not all people have the same ability to have the same level of self awareness, I guess I'd say that those who lack the ability to make the choice that existing is superior to having an xbox - whether through genes or environment - should probably not be here.
Like, I don't really care where being a superficial, weak POS comes from. If you are genetically incapable of not being that, just die.

I think we could be best friends

 

[Superdeterminist]

I don't hate the kids who kill themselves over an ipad. I hate the kids who want to kill themselves over an ipad and then don't.
If we're debating over whether or not all people have the same ability to have the same level of self awareness, I guess I'd say that those who lack the ability to make the choice that existing is superior to having an xbox - whether through genes or environment - should probably not be here.
Like, I don't really care where being a superficial, weak POS comes from. If you are genetically incapable of not being that, just die.

Rather harsh imo.

 

[toforigivelife]

Unrealistic expectations? Maybe having any expectations while living in within a system that now really does not care if the poor die off, a system that now almost exclusively favors the upper middle class and wealthy.

Maybe those who don't fall into either of those categories are to the point of suicide for having any expectations at all.

There was a time, decades ago, when you could wait tables for a living and afford to have a half way decent place to live and a mode of transportation.

Growing up a little bit and realizing that not all of your expectations will be, at least not all at once, can disappointing, disheartening and frustrating but having to lower your expectations does not turn a normally healthy person into a suicidal person.

Lack of employment and homeless due to current systemic and economic circumstances, clinical depression and other mental health problems, failing physical health, severe family and parental dysfunction, isolation, abandonment, inability to connect in a meaningful way with others - these are things that can and will drive a person, regardless of age, to suicide.

 

[Thaneem]

To quote BottomlessPit:

"There can be no free will in a universe where the law of cause and effect governs everything. All we think, say, and do is preceded and influenced by prior causes and conditions. No choice appears in a vacuum, we are all part of a long chain of causation. To believe in free will is to believe that we are somehow unaffected by the laws of physics..."

I don't think this has to be so complicated. My father was an alcoholic. Im an alcoholic. Is there a genetic aspect to it? Sure. But am I choosing to drink right now? Absolutely.
Before every bad choice Ive ever made, there's been a little, flickering voice that said, "don't do it", but I did it anyway.
Your choices are yours and mine are mine. Own them.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

I don't hate the kids who kill themselves over an ipad. I hate the kids who want to kill themselves over an ipad and then don't.
If we're debating over whether or not all people have the same ability to have the same level of self awareness, I guess I'd say that those who lack the ability to make the choice that existing is superior to having an xbox - whether through genes or environment - should probably not be here.
Like, I don't really care where being a superficial, weak POS comes from. If you are genetically incapable of not being that, just die.

I actually think it is understandable if a person commits suicide because of an iPad or whatever else. Think about this way: we live in a society that is very consumerist. Money is the current deity. Your whole being is judged on what job you have, and how financially successful you are. Young people treat electronic devices as more valuable than themselves, because in the current state of society, those devices are more valuable than themselves. Just look at factory workers in certain countries who manufacture our goods; they are paid and treat very lowly in order to make the goods which they make cheap. What does this say? It says that material possessions have more worth than a human life.

 

[Thaneem]

I think we could be best friends

Anyone who isnt immediately repulsed by most of what I say would likely be in the "best friend" run-offs lol

I actually think it is understandable if a person commits suicide because of an iPad or whatever else. Think about this way: we live in a society that is very consumerist. Money is the current deity. Your whole being is judged on what job you have, and how financially successful you are. Young people treat electronic devices as more valuable than themselves, because in the current state of society, those devices are more valuable than themselves. Just look at factory workers in certain countries who manufacture our goods; they are paid and treat very lowly in order to make the goods which they make cheap. What does this say? It says that material possessions have more worth than a human life.

I'm not saying that it's not understandable. I'm saying that I hope they do it immediately.

 

[motel rooms]

No I disagree - to an extent. Young people want to live in a society where necessities are affordable, and with the possibility of being able to save up for a house. These are normal expectations, and ones which many have had in previous generations.

These are reasonable expectations, but, thanks to the despicable system imposed on us, they have become unrealistic. Of course, people could try to change the system, but that takes persistence & courage.

Plus I do not believe that refusing to deal with the harshness of reality makes a person coddled.

Who said that?

 

[Sprite_Geist]

These are reasonable expectations, but, thanks to the despicable system imposed on us, they have become unrealistic. Of course, people could try to change the system, but that takes persistence & courage.

Yes this is true. Not only persistence and courage, but people would also need to come together as a whole. The issue is that too many groups point fingers at each other.

Who said that?

No one. It was included in my post because it is sometimes what people are referencing when it comes to this topic. It was not supposed to accuse you of implying it.

 

[Apricity]

@hotelbeneathground see what you started?

 

[motel rooms]

Unrealistic expectations? Maybe having any expectations while living in within a system that now really does not care if the poor die off, a system that now almost exclusively favors the upper middle class and wealthy.

Maybe those who don't fall into either of those categories are to the point of suicide for having any expectations at all.

There's a big difference between unreasonable & unrealistic. The fact that an expectation is currently unrealistic because the system is monstrous doesn't mean it's unreasonable.

 

[toforigivelife]

There's a big difference between unreasonable & unrealistic. The fact that an expectation is currently unrealistic because the system is monstrous doesn't mean it's unreasonable.

Having unrealistic expectations that leave a person actively suicidal, attempting suicide, making the effort to educate themselves about an effective suicide method and making set plans to commit suicide aren't really unrealistic expectations.

It's an indication that a person's whole being was set on a thin string of having their unrealistic expectations met and that desperation to meet those unrealistic expectations comes from a deeper place than their ego, usually severe depression that probably stems from a toxic, unhealthy family dynamic or parental emotional abuse and emotional abandonment.

It's not a good idea confuse mere unrealistic expectations with a desperate, self-destructive, unhealthy need for a sense of validation.

 

[chocolatebar]

I think I understand what you mean and this is very sensitive, because any small misinterpretation can lead to something far too different. I agree, but I think this isn`t just about the parents, but the whole environment and the networks we`re connected to. We grow up believing we`re going to be great ones, renowned internationally, that we can do anything we wish for and we should be ambitious. The entire culture teach us that being equal is something humiliating and that we should be better. In the end, our system works in a way which, to support a few people at the top, we need billions on the bottom. And the frustration when we get into early adulthood and realize we`re going to live at the bottom...

 

[seaweaves]

Had a long rant to add, but will cherrypick from it and just affirm with others, that I've become acclimatized to so much horrible crap through gradual wearing down and through incremental social changes over the last few decades, like a frog in boiling water, that I can appreciate that things which should be an easy social norm or want for younger folks might seem really unrealistic to me these days without further critical reflection. To be deliberately exaggeratory: You want to own property? Have stable rent and housing security? Ha!

 

[irememberinnocence]

I think kids aren't being raised to emotionally cope with reality. One example is that I have known or know friends of young people who have suicided suddenly and impulsively after heartbreak.

I feel like kids are being raised in an emotional void where they don't learn how to cope with many things that are just part of normal life. So it's really hard for them to navigate emotions that arise due to impermanent human experiences.

Two big examples that really break me is those who suicide over a lost relationship/rejection and those who suicide because their grades aren't high enough or they aren't enjoying university.

 

[motel rooms]

I think I understand what you mean and this is very sensitive, because any small misinterpretation can lead to something far too different. I agree, but I think this isn`t just about the parents, but the whole environment and the networks we`re connected to. We grow up believing we`re going to be great ones, renowned internationally, that we can do anything we wish for and we should be ambitious.

I think my post was completely unambiguous. It's clear that I don't judge depressed young people. I stand by my claim that way too many incompetent parents allow their children to grow up believing that it's possible to achieve perfect happiness in life, which is extremely dangerous. It's possible to "save" one's children from much of the bullshit on social media by actually giving a fuck about them & taking an active interest in their offline & online lives. To believe that untainted happiness is achievable is to have unrealistic expectations from life, which will invariably make you miserable. That is my only point.


@seaweaves & @toforigivelife, please read my reply to @stalewater

@hotelbeneathground see what you started?

@Apricity Some people simply can't resist grandstanding & creating strawmen to score cheap points...

 

[motel rooms]

The point I was trying to make is that our expectations aren't unrealistic - we want very simple things. A lot of it is just wanting stability and independence.

You misunderstood what I meant by unrealistic expectations from life. I was talking about the danger of buying into the idea that it's possible to achieve perfect happiness, not about our need for basic dignity & stability. I was talking about setting the bar ridiculously high:

Way too many morons in developed countries protect their kids from reality at all costs & raise them to believe in sappy fairy tales about perfect happiness.

@TotallyIsolated

 

[Insomniac]

Would you agree that many kids' depression is due to them having utterly unrealistic expectations from life? Way too many morons in developed countries protect their kids from reality at all costs & raise them to believe in sappy fairy tales about perfect happiness. I'm not saying children should be forced to memorize Schopenhauer quotes & practice partial after school, but things have really gotten out of hand. Yes, I know this is an unoriginal thread topic, but so are 90 % of them.

True. Kids in developed countries are completely out of touch with reality (just look at tik tok) and have no idea how lucky and privileged they are.

however, millenials suffering is real. Everywhere in the world, they're the generation that is struggling the most. Look at chinses millenials for example: their parents expects them to be successful and rich, to have babies AND to take care of their aging parents. In a world destroyed by boomers.

This is the same reality for every millenial in this world. they're just living human sacrifices.

 

[Apricity]

True. Kids in developing countries are completely out of touch with reality (just look at tik tok) and have no idea how lucky and privileged they are.

however, millenials suffering is real. Everywhere in the world, they're the generation that is struggling the most. Look at chinses millenials for example: their parents expects them to be successful and rich, to have babies AND to take care of their aging parents. In a world destroyed by boomers.

This is the same reality for every millenial in this world. they're just living human sacrifices.

You meant developed, right?

 

[Fragile]

I have a question to those of you who blame the "system" for having failed this generation of young people.

What's the alternative?

And, do you really believe that changing the system is even possible?

There's definitely something very wrong and rotten in our society, but I don't know if we can just say that whatever we mean by system (that's an extremelly vague word in itself) can be entirely blamed for this level of discontent that many developed nations are experiencing. The individual is also partly to blame regardless of their upbringing.

 

[Insomniac]

those who suicide because their grades aren't high enough or they aren't enjoying university.

ummm... is there... is there
any other reason to want to die?

honestly, I can't think of any other reason to want to kill oneself other than rejection and bad grades at college. Social rejection is terrible and some people are just systematically ignored/rejected by everyone. Even if people are polite with them, no one ever returns their call, invite them or check on them.

And failing at uni can mean you'll never have a decent job.

These situations create severe anxiety in people and anxiety is a deadly disease.

What's the alternative?

see how society condemns things like drug money, sexwork money, or any other kind of dirty money?

we could also condemn overconsumption the same way and look down on people who want to have too much and who contribute to the destruction of everything. When these people stop with their greed, everyone will be able to have enough.

So yes, there are plenty of alternatives. Most people are suffering because some people have too much. To much power. Too much money. Too much attention. Too much recognition. Too much love (yes, too much love). Etc.

That leaves others with not enough.

 

[HelloAllYouPeople]

I graduated from a highly-regarded university in my country. Grades and familial expectations definitely can bring one to depression and suicide. A friend of mine dropped out entirely (he's doing better now) and another friend of mine caught the bus. There's a known engineering department with very tough courses and high failure rates. It's typical over there to have a suicide a year, no amount of "mental health support" and "open forums" really stops the amount of depressed students and suicidals that come out of that department. I heard the same shit happens in high-performing science highschools.

I think depression is just part of life some will unfortunately have. I will not judge whatever causes it. The only thing I wish for society to change is to have an easier access to suicide. If survival of the fittest says people like me should die, then all I ask for is to die in dignity at least.

 

[motel rooms]

I have a question to those of you who blame the "system" for having failed this generation of young people.
What's the alternative?
And, do you really believe that changing the system is even possible?

Well, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria & all the Scandinavian countries practice a much more humane form of capitalism than the US, their people aren't overworked, they have a safety net & their economies are somehow still extremely competitive. Solidarity isn't a dirty word there, selfishness is. Germans, Canadians, Australians & New Zealanders also seem to be much happier than Americans, could that possibly mean that their countries are run better than the US?

Americans could elect someone like Teddy Roosevelt, a reformer known as "the trust buster", a capitalist who decided to clip the wings of trusts / large business organizations. Why is it so impossible for Americans to limit the influence of money in politics, to put their oligarchs in their place & to tax corporations? How come FDR was able to do it? How was the extremely popular Eisenhower able to have a 90 % (ninety, not nine!) tax rate for the super rich during the eight years of his presidency (1953 -1961)? Was he a filthy communist? Jesus Christ, not even a totally collapsed, corrupt country like Greece has a homelessness problem as huge as that of the US. Yes, it's possible to change the system for the better without having a communist revolution. When there's a will in politics, there's always a way.

 

[author]

But you, like me, were a victim of neglect & CSA, so maybe you weren't exposed to enough normies in your childhood...

I really don't think that being abused makes me less likely to be exposed to "normies" or that I somehow wasn't exposed to enough "normal people", but I also don't want to explain my socioeconomic background, my school environments, and all that other stuff with a stranger lol - I'm just gonna leave it here since I feel I've said what I want to say already.

 

[motel rooms]

I really don't think that being abused makes me less likely to be exposed to "normies" or that I somehow wasn't exposed to enough "normal people", but I also don't want to explain my socioeconomic background, my school environments, and all that other stuff with a stranger lol - I'm just gonna leave it here since I feel I've said what I want to say already.

Fair enough. I hope you read this:
"You misunderstood what I meant by unrealistic expectations from life. I was talking about the danger of buying into the idea that it's possible to achieve perfect happiness, not about our need for basic dignity & stability. I was talking about setting the bar ridiculously high."

 

[deflationary]

I feel like I'm completely out of touch with anyone that isn't me, and especially with anyone that can be said to have high expectations, so I probably shouldn't even share my opinions on a topic like this... so here's my opinion

It's gotta be true that expectations matter and that parents can influence their kids' expectations to at least some extent, so, yeah, some parents could be doing a better job at keeping their kids' expectations realistic instead of inflating them to a point where they can't help but be disappointed eventually.

But I think if we actually tried to keep everyone's expectations realistic from the start, that would result in more people being depressed, not less. Unrealistic expectations can be great as long as you're not aware that they're unrealistic. That's like the essence of a happy life. I guess that's why you said we shouldn't be making kids read Schopenhauer though.

 

[WaitWithoutHope]

To put it bluntly, no. Idealism is not the root cause of depression. OP has been on this forum long enough to know better.