Would it be better for humanity to go extinct?

[SpiritualDeath]

I think it would be better for all sentient life to go extinct. The sooner the better.

 

[DarkRange55]

I think we have some very unpleasant tendancies to our nature that awareness doesn't seem to restrain. Personally- I'm not convinced we are becoming nicer as a species. Are you? We may have policies that tell us to be more tolerant of one another but, I'm not sure that's how we really feel.

I think we're a very entitled species which makes us simply ignore all the damage we know we're doing. How much worse or more stupid can you get than an organism that actively destroys its own habitat? Alongside the habitat of billions of other creatures? It would be funny if it weren't so tragic... Not to say it's 'evil'- like you say- that's a human concept. You can't deny that it's dumb though! We don't deserve to survive if we carry on like this- just sucking out the resources of everything in our path and killing anything that gets in our way.

How will technologies further us as a species do you think? These new Elon Musk brain chips or whatever? What makes you think that the modern, technological world is better than natural laws? Do you think capitalism and consumerism benefits everyone equally? Do you think we'll ever shake those two pillars in society?

Yeah- sure- on the absolute mathematics level, I doubt very much matters at all. This world is made up of sentient creatures though... We know full well what it means to be a sentient creature because- we are one- so- while it might benefit any of us to whack your granny over the head and steal her pension money- the hope is- most of us won't!

We may enjoy products with palm oil in but- yes- I do find it sad that 300 soccer field's worth of rainforest per hour is being destroyed to plant it. We know that is killing off species and contributing to CO2 emisions. But hey, that cake we just ate was delicious! So- nevermind hey?

I'm just a big a hypocrite as everyone else though- I'd like to add. It's not like I'm trying to be high, mighty and righteous here but yes- I feel shit about it... Then I feel resentful because I was brought here and then made to feel guilty for it! Then I wonder what it's like for children being brought into this world. They will grow up being told from infancy what a blight humans are on the environment. And they get the prize of having to try and sort it out before they are knee deep in flood water or, feeing from a fire or, digging themselves out of earthquake rubble. Lucky old them. But again- maybe you're right. Maybe humanity is heading for a new golden age. Who knows?

Let me try to go through step-by-step.

Be warned this is simply a rough draft, I still need to respond to some other posts in detail, just very busy outside of this forum.

1. Have we become a less violent species? Arguably yes. As a terrible example but just off the top of my head, nuclear weapons have been the single greatest tool for peace. This is why the Soviet did not invade eastern Europe, and why Middle East has not formed some grand coalition to destroy Israel, and why China has not invaded Taiwan, and why India and Pakistan have not gone to war.
2. Technology will become much more sustainable and allow humans to leave the earth. Fusion, better computer modeling of resource management, mining the astroid belt, ect.
3. Clownalon Muskrat is a clown but I do think Neural Link is the start of a future. We are wearing technology and the next logical step is implants.
4. No system benefits everyone equally. But capitalism and industrialization have lifted more people out of poverty. Our current system is not true fair-market and elements of socialism are good.
5. I think a resource-based Star Trek economy is the future. Post-labor economy. Good video on that. I also don't believe that someone who scrubs toilets should make the same as a brain surgeon but I also do think that everyone deserves a good standard of living, and you do get paid in proportion to the problem solve. I also think people that take on more responsibility or choose to work extra hard should make more as an incentive.
6. Yes, likely we will have something like the above.
7. Math, it can be argued is a human invention.
8. Destroying our habitat? Humanity's habitat has been growing and developing. Animal's habitat's have been shrinking. But again, this may change. And even if we destroy the planet and kill ourselves off, live will probably spawn again and come back. Nuclear war is nothing equal to a titanic astroid impact and live came back. Watch George Carlin's bit on that, it's pretty funny.
9. We are sentient but the human brain is divided into (roughly speaking) 3 parts. The prefrontal cortex is the most advanced but we still have very primitive aspects in our brains that dominate many decision.
10. "True evil is as pure as innocence" - Damien Thorn. No villain thinks they are the villain. You do have the dark triad (and now dark diad) psychopathy, Machiavellian, narcissism, (and sadism). Animals can have behavior problems with their brains, too.
11. Yes, it is dumb and I do think it will change for one reason or another. More efficiency, more profit, no more oil, social climate, better environmentalism, ect.
12. If you look at the updated Fermi Paradox, anthropogenic climate change might just be something that every civilization has to go through and learn from (and most may not make it).
13. Only at the brink do people find the will to change. Every civilization reaches a tipping point eventually. Most don't make it. But only at the precipice do people find the will to change.
14. If you make resources infinite you may make war obsolete. I highly doubt that if an alien race is advanced enough to get here (and maybe they are), that they wouldn't have any need for war.
15. I think that the golden rule is evolutionarily ingrained in most people. It helps hold a society together to do that.

I'll try to get a better response soon but I need to respond to a couple other posts first and even then I need to finish up some things offline. Hope that helps for the moment!

 

[Ambivalent1]

Yes.

 

[DarkRange55]

I think that humans have transcended nature. Humans have created so many artificial structures. We live in concrete jungles, etc. I don't consider humans to be part of nature. Humans are not essential to the planet. Humans aren't a central part of the food chain like "real" animals are, the food chain doesn't need us, even though we're at the top. There are plenty of other apex predators to choose from. Our presence or absence on this planet makes no difference. Humans are inherently abnormal and different from other species, only humanity has consciousness and is "intelligent"

This is in repose to the freewill thing:
The uncertainty principle plus chaotic interactions ensure free will within one universe.
The fine details of neuroscience or psychology will be hard to predict from first principles, but the broad picture will be worked out.
In response to measurement thing: Some measurement units, such as the speed of light or the mass of a proton, are not arbitrary. However measurements made in the metric system certainly are based on arbitrary human constructs. Cosmic laws such as the speed of light remaining cost to all observers seem to be valid throughout the universe, but we really don't know yet if that was true in the earliest second

Yes, I believe so. Give the rest of the animals and plants that inhabit this earth a chance to recover. I don't think we're altruistic enough to slow down our destruction of this planet. I imagine we may well wipe ourselves out before the sun explodes and kills everything but I think it would be nice if the billions of other organisms on this planet had a restbite from us before that happens. I wonder which animal would become the most dominant next.

Plus, I'm probably more in favour of nature than AI. Without us, so long as AI hasn't been created to an indepenent level, that would die too. (Although- would it ever have been alive?) Somehow, if AI is created in our image and- if they have no need for nature, I could see them continuing in the same pillage and plunder fashion we have with regards to other species. I think they need a good long break from creatures that can enslave and butcher them en masse. Good riddance to the lot of us!

Maybe it would be good if some good alien spiecies one day came along though and collected all of humankinds greatest achievements and displayed them in some museum. Isn't it weird to think one day- no one will be around to hear your favourite song? Any form of it will have been melted by the sun.

how the sun is getting warmer, and how only humans can save the earth from overheating. If the sun is 30% warmer now than it was in the early solar system, that means that we should be 15% farther from the sun, so we should be about 22.5 million km, or 22.5 billion m, further from the sun now than we were 4.5 billion years ago. That's just a rough calculation, but it comes out as a nice, round 5 m per year that we should be moving the earth to maintain its place in the habitable zone. So the story is about how humanity nudges an asteroid into an orbit near Jupiter at aphelion and the earth at perihelion the earth (that uses the equivalent of the gravitational boost that we give to spacecraft) to steal momentum from Jupiter and transfer it to earth. Of course this is a bit risky because if we screw up the orbital mechanics, then we could hit the earth, so the social dynamics are about whether to use one large asteroid, multiple small asteroids, or scrap the whole plan and hope that future technology finds some other way to move the earth. Figuring out how to nudge the asteroids efficiently into the initial orbit led to the rest of my series on how we might realistically colonize the solar system, and how we might live as we do so.

 

[DarkRange55]

The bow gives life by ending life for another. Life itself supports life by ending life for another. (This is fundamentally true down to the laws of physics. Entropy is always increasing. In order to live, we consume and compete for energy. Carnivores eat herbivores. Herbivores eat photosynthesizers. Photosynthesizers eat energy from dying stars. Stars eat energy from disappearing atoms.) His explanation is lacking, but the elegance is there.

This is a reference to Heraclitus, a Greek philosopher who is known for his belief that the nature of the universe is composed of the shifting balance between opposites. "Logos."

 

[Forever Sleep]

14. If you make resources infinite you may make war obsolete. I highly doubt that if an alien race is advanced enough to get here (and maybe they are), that they wouldn't have any need for war.

I think this is a really interesting idea and I'd like to think it was true but, I'm not convinced it is. Maybe you can argue this is our primative brains but- as a species, I think we look to ostracize others. We tend to feel most united when we have someone to hate and fight against. I once read someone theorise that the only thing that would unite the entire human race would be an attack from outside it- eg. aliens, AI. Still- you can bet within that war, there will still be profiteers. As a species though, sometimes I wonder if we feel a need for conflict.

As for faults within human nature- narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths. Sure- the animal kingdom also produces a lot of cruelty. But- we have awareness of it. Your brain may theorise that all that stuff is ok in the wider scheme of things- fine. My brain thinks- I don't like the human race as a whole. I don't like how society rewards narcissists and sociopaths. Our societies reward ruthlessness- just like the animal kingdom does. How can you know it will all be fine in the broader scheme of things without knowing the future? There again- how can I?

So maybe, I'll put it this way instead. I don't like the idea of any sentient being in pain and suffering. Would this world likely suffer more or less with or without humans on it? I'd say we are very good at killing things for our own benefit and, we're not actually too fussed how they lived beforehand. So- in my view, I think there would be less suffering with fewer, preferably no humans on this planet. Fine if you think technology will one day change all that- I hope you're right.

Of course, the human race could go in any direction of course. Maybe we wil become amazing. To be brutally honest, I don't care! I don't have children. It isn't my responsibility.

I guess I am curious though. If modern living is so great. And, I'm not denying it's much easier than cave dwelling, why do you think so many people are unhappy?

But anyway, I hope you're right. I don't share your optimism or view of humans but, I'm perfectly willing to accept that is my own pessimistic, cynical nature. Which I have no interest to change because- like I say, I don't feel the obligation to participate or even have faith in our glittering future. I'm happy to leave that all to someone else. Best of luck to you all!

This is in repose to the freewill thing:
The uncertainty principle plus chaotic interactions ensure free will within one universe.
The fine details of neuroscience or psychology will be hard to predict from first principles, but the broad picture will be worked out.
In response to measurement thing: Some measurement units, such as the speed of light or the mass of a proton, are not arbitrary. However measurements made in the metric system certainly are based on arbitrary human constructs. Cosmic laws such as the speed of light remaining cost to all observers seem to be valid throughout the universe, but we really don't know yet if that was true in the earliest second

how the sun is getting warmer, and how only humans can save the earth from overheating. If the sun is 30% warmer now than it was in the early solar system, that means that we should be 15% farther from the sun, so we should be about 22.5 million km, or 22.5 billion m, further from the sun now than we were 4.5 billion years ago. That's just a rough calculation, but it comes out as a nice, round 5 m per year that we should be moving the earth to maintain its place in the habitable zone. So the story is about how humanity nudges an asteroid into an orbit near Jupiter at aphelion and the earth at perihelion the earth (that uses the equivalent of the gravitational boost that we give to spacecraft) to steal momentum from Jupiter and transfer it to earth. Of course this is a bit risky because if we screw up the orbital mechanics, then we could hit the earth, so the social dynamics are about whether to use one large asteroid, multiple small asteroids, or scrap the whole plan and hope that future technology finds some other way to move the earth. Figuring out how to nudge the asteroids efficiently into the initial orbit led to the rest of my series on how we might realistically colonize the solar system, and how we might live as we do so.

Well, I hope they communicate which unit of measurement they are using this time- remember this blunder when one team thought they were using inches and the others, the metric system? Lol. A $125 million dollar slip up.

How NASA Lost a Spacecraft From a Metric Math Mistake | SimScale

How NASA lost a spacecraft due to a mistake with metric units and unit conversion. Learn about the Mars Climate Orbiter incident.

www.simscale.com

Sorry but I would actually find that darkly funny if we manage to aim an asteroid at the earth. Or, put ourselves on a collision course with something. Again, I admire your faith in science and people not to mess it up.

 

[DarkRange55]

I think this is a really interesting idea and I'd like to think it was true but, I'm not convinced it is. Maybe you can argue this is our primative brains but- as a species, I think we look to ostracize others. We tend to feel most united when we have someone to hate and fight against. I once read someone theorise that the only thing that would unite the entire human race would be an attack from outside it- eg. aliens, AI. Still- you can bet within that war, there will still be profiteers. As a species though, sometimes I wonder if we feel a need for conflict.

As for faults within human nature- narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths. Sure- the animal kingdom also produces a lot of cruelty. But- we have awareness of it. Your brain may theorise that all that stuff is ok in the wider scheme of things- fine. My brain thinks- I don't like the human race as a whole. I don't like how society rewards narcissists and sociopaths. Our societies reward ruthlessness- just like the animal kingdom does. How can you know it will all be fine in the broader scheme of things without knowing the future? There again- how can I?

So maybe, I'll put it this way instead. I don't like the idea of any sentient being in pain and suffering. Would this world likely suffer more or less with or without humans on it? I'd say we are very good at killing things for our own benefit and, we're not actually too fussed how they lived beforehand. So- in my view, I think there would be less suffering with fewer, preferably no humans on this planet. Fine if you think technology will one day change all that- I hope you're right.

Of course, the human race could go in any direction of course. Maybe we wil become amazing. To be brutally honest, I don't care! I don't have children. It isn't my responsibility.

I guess I am curious though. If modern living is so great. And, I'm not denying it's much easier than cave dwelling, why do you think so many people are unhappy?

But anyway, I hope you're right. I don't share your optimism or view of humans but, I'm perfectly willing to accept that is my own pessimistic, cynical nature. Which I have no interest to change because- like I say, I don't feel the obligation to participate or even have faith in our glittering future. I'm happy to leave that all to someone else. Best of luck to you all!


Well, I hope they communicate which unit of measurement they are using this time- remember this blunder when one team thought they were using inches and the others, the metric system? Lol. A $125 million dollar slip up.

How NASA Lost a Spacecraft From a Metric Math Mistake | SimScale

How NASA lost a spacecraft due to a mistake with metric units and unit conversion. Learn about the Mars Climate Orbiter incident.

www.simscale.com

Sorry but I would actually find that darkly funny if we manage to aim an asteroid at the earth. Or, put ourselves on a collision course with something. Again, I admire your faith in science and people not to mess it up.

1. Regan said that at a speech to the UN.
2. Yes, that is tribalism. A product of evolution.
3. Evil has existed for as long as there has been life and competition, but we're just the first species to recognize it for what it is in lent to whores, but we will never overcome them as long as we look at them theologically instead of scientifically.
The lion kills the gazelle and orphans its children to feed its own, one ant colony goes to war with another, and in the end, secures the larger territory, three chimps ganged up on a single chimp that they're not part of their tribe and beat it brutally to death. And in the process that weaken their competitors for land and for resources for mates. Just because human beings have reached a higher level of consciousness, and the beast that kill each other in the jungle, for these reasons does not mean we have outgrown these evils.
4. Evolutionary miss-match.

 

[Forever Sleep]

1. Regan said that at a speech to the UN.
2. Yes, that is tribalism. A product of evolution.
3. Evil has existed for as long as there has been life and competition, but we're just the first species to recognize it for what it is in lent to whores, but we will never overcome them as long as we look at them theologically instead of scientifically.
The lion kills the gazelle and orphans its children to feed its own, one ant colony goes to war with another, and in the end, secures the larger territory, three chimps ganged up on a single chimp that they're not part of their tribe and beat it brutally to death. And in the process that weaken their competitors for land and for resources for mates. Just because human beings have reached a higher level of consciousness, and the beast that kill each other in the jungle, for these reasons does not mean we have outgrown these evils.
4. Evolutionary miss-match.

All fine but bottomline is- you're happy for it to continue- maybe in the hopes we reach a greater good although, maybe that doesn't matter either. I'm not. I'd rather it (we) didn't continue. Seeing as neither of us has the power to control it beyond having our own children, it also doesn't matter much whether we agree or not. Interesting discussion though.

 

[sserafim]

Yes.

Yes

Why do you think so?

 

[DarkRange55]

1. Regan said that at a speech to the UN.
2. Yes, that is tribalism. A product of evolution.
3. Evil has existed for as long as there has been life in competition, but we're just the first species to recognize it for what it is in lent to whores, but we will never overcome them as long as we look at them theologically instead of scientifically.
4. Evolutionary miss-match.

All fine but bottomline is- you're happy for it to continue- maybe in the hopes we reach a greater good although, maybe that doesn't matter either. I'm not. I'd rather it (we) didn't continue. Seeing as neither of us has the power to control it beyond having our own children, it also doesn't matter much whether we agree or not. Interesting discussion though.

I personally find a lot of fulfillment and enjoyment in life, and I would like to share that with other people, and hopefully just said an example. I have no control over whether the human race flourishes or not. I like the quote in the planet of the apes original movie the main character I forgot his name, but he says there has to be something beyond earth. There has to be some better life warm out there there just has to be.

 

[sserafim]

Why do you think they inherently evil instead of being programmed with outdated anarchistic survival drives that clash with the modern world and haven't caught up yet?

Humans are inherently evil because they're programmed to be, like you said, with "outdated anarchistic survival drives that clash with the modern world and haven't caught up yet". I wouldn't necessarily say that these survival drives clash with the modern world. The modern world is still about survival. Life is basically a pointless game of competition and survival, it's a struggle to survive. All organisms are competing with each other, and humans are no different. Humans have to compete with others in the capitalist rat race and work for a living just to support themselves. Adulthood is basically all about survival, you have to work to earn money to pay for the costs of existence. Humans are an especially cruel and violent species. People bully each other for fun, etc. We know better than animals, yet are still mean and vicious to each other. We completely understand what we're doing. We're also especially competitive, people will step on all of their adversaries and competitors to get to the top, leaving them in the dust. This is due to the fact that humans are inherently evil and selfish.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I personally find a lot of fulfillment and enjoyment in life, and I would like to share that with other people, and hopefully just said an example. I have no control over whether the human race flourishes or not. I like the quote in the planet of the apes original movie the main character I forgot his name, but he says there has to be something beyond earth. There has to be some better life warm out there there just has to be.

I'm glad you do. I don't hate every moment exactly but personally, it's not for me and really honestly- I resent it that I have this life that it's going to be painful to try and get rid of. But, there we go. I don't think my parents intended this for me, so not exactly fair to blame them.

As for something beyond this earth. To be honest, that phrase annoys me for a similar reason the idea of an alien species saving humanity annoys you.

My Mum's doctor failed to diagnose a cancerous mole correctly and by the time it was diagnosed, she was pregnant with me. She unfortunately delayed having chemo and died 3 years later. The same doctor, when he came to sign the death cetificate asked my Dad if he believed in an afterlife. He said- from all he'd witnessed (maybe other patients he'd misdiagnosed too!) he had to believe there was something more. But- how covenient huh? What a way to let yourself off your responsibilities in this life- it doesn't matter because they'll have a lovely afterlife. Thanks mate! Not that he did it deliberately of course and, we all make mistakes but- really?

Honestly, I'm not even interested in an afterlife now. I'm hoping there's nothing more after this but, I hope everyone gets what they want for them.

 

[DarkRange55]

I'm glad you do. I don't hate every moment exactly but personally, it's not for me and really honestly- I resent it that I have this life that it's going to be painful to try and get rid of. But, there we go. I don't think my parents intended this for me, so not exactly fair to blame them.

As for something beyond this earth. To be honest, that phrase annoys me for a similar reason the idea of an alien species saving humanity annoys you.

My Mum's doctor failed to diagnose a cancerous mole correctly and by the time it was diagnosed, she was pregnant with me. She unfortunately delayed having chemo and died 3 years later. The same doctor, when he came to sign the death cetificate asked my Dad if he believed in an afterlife. He said- from all he'd witnessed (maybe other patients he'd misdiagnosed too!) he had to believe there was something more. But- how covenient huh? What a way to let yourself off your responsibilities in this life- it doesn't matter because they'll have a lovely afterlife. Thanks mate! Not that he did it deliberately of course and, we all make mistakes but- really?

Honestly, I'm not even interested in an afterlife now. I'm hoping there's nothing more after this but, I hope everyone gets what they want for them.

Oh, my gosh I am sorry. Thats horrible and I can't imagine.
I feel you on the afterlife sentiment. I also get annoyed by the lack of responsibility taken for that idea. Easy escape for a lot of people.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Do you mind if I ask you why you have those feelings about life in general? I don't want to pry, just wanted to offer a sense of companionship / community / get to know you a bit better as a person since we've been going back and forth haha. Maybe it's better to PM? Either way, I respect your privacy.

Humans are inherently evil because they're programmed to be, like you said, with "outdated anarchistic survival drives that clash with the modern world and haven't caught up yet". I wouldn't necessarily say that these survival drives clash with the modern world. The modern world is still about survival. Life is basically a pointless game of competition and survival, it's a struggle to survive. All organisms are competing with each other, and humans are no different. Humans have to compete with others in the capitalist rat race and work for a living just to support themselves. Adulthood is basically all about survival, you have to work to earn money to pay for the costs of existence. Humans are an especially cruel and violent species. People bully each other for fun, etc. We know better than animals, yet are still mean and vicious to each other. We completely understand what we're doing. We're also especially competitive, people will step on all of their adversaries and competitors to get to the top, leaving them in the dust. This is due to the fact that humans are inherently evil and selfish.

It's competition, at the most basic level, that causes all hostile conspecific actions towards you, that's the psychology. People realize subconsciously not consciously that every person they encounter is potential conflict and competition.

Humans are inherently evil because they're programmed to be, like you said, with "outdated anarchistic survival drives that clash with the modern world and haven't caught up yet". I wouldn't necessarily say that these survival drives clash with the modern world. The modern world is still about survival. Life is basically a pointless game of competition and survival, it's a struggle to survive. All organisms are competing with each other, and humans are no different. Humans have to compete with others in the capitalist rat race and work for a living just to support themselves. Adulthood is basically all about survival, you have to work to earn money to pay for the costs of existence. Humans are an especially cruel and violent species. People bully each other for fun, etc. We know better than animals, yet are still mean and vicious to each other. We completely understand what we're doing. We're also especially competitive, people will step on all of their adversaries and competitors to get to the top, leaving them in the dust. This is due to the fact that humans are inherently evil and selfish.

I think that would in some sense make all life "evil." But I don't believe in the traditional dichotomy of good and evil. Plus we are the only species that attempts to save other species. We are capable of great horrors but also great wonders. I do believe that technology can (if used correctly) Alleviate a lot of these ills. The brain doesn't really work as a single entity but rather a mosaic. So people may be aware on some level but not aware on a higher level. Yes, we have to work and (pay for things) but so do animals. We are all organisms in this world and we all have relationships with each other we've been symbiotic for many, many, many thousands of years. Organisms that have exchange do the best.

Kranzberg's laws of technology, "Technology is neither good nor bad; nor is it neutral. Invention is the mother of necessity. Technology comes in packages, big and small. Although technology might be a prime element in many public issues, nontechnical factors take precedence in technology-policy decisions."

"I think that technologies are morally neutral until we apply them. It's only when we use them for good or for evil that they become good or evil."
- William Gibson

 

[Forever Sleep]

Oh, my gosh I am sorry. Thats horrible and I can't imagine.
I feel you on the afterlife sentiment. I also get annoyed by the lack of responsibility taken for that idea. Easy escape for a lot of people.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Do you mind if I ask you why you have those feelings about life in general? I don't want to pry, just wanted to offer a sense of companionship / community / get to know you a bit better as a person since we've been going back and forth haha. Maybe it's better to PM? Either way, I respect your privacy.

It's competition, at the most basic level, that causes all hostile conspecific actions towards you, that's the psychology. People realize subconsciously not consciously that every person they encounter is potential conflict and competition.

Thank you for your sympathy. Yes, it's a tricky one really. I think as a species that has awareness, some things are just so frightening and disturbing for us, we try to comfort ourselves with stories I guess. Maybe religions are real. Maybe these glorious sci-fi futures are possible. I don't know. I think a lot of the time, we are just trying to comfort ourselves.

As for why I'm suicidal? In a nutshell- a troubled childhood resulting in a fixation with creativity as my sole coping mechanism. And now, that coping mechanism is failing. Both financially and in terms of me not being as fulfilled by it. The constant threat of having to do a wage slave job again. I've done them for 10 years- I know how unhappy they make me. Plus- I'm 44. I've done a fair few things in life to know what does and doesn't help me. And for me, it doesn't feel worth it anymore. I'm merely lingering out of the want not to hurt my Dad. Pretty much the only person left in my life. When he goes, I don't want to go through that grief again for one but beyond that, that's my last tether here.

How about you? If you do still enjoy life largely, do you experience suicidal thoughts intrusively? For me, I've had them from childhood, so they are a part of my regular thinking.

 

[DarkRange55]

 

[Forever Sleep]

Doesn't surprise me one bit...

 

[Ferdinand Bardamu]

No. However a major decline in population rates would be beneficial and make life so much better.

 

[DarkRange55]

No. However a major decline in population rates would be beneficial and make life so much better.

Population demographics are declining in most Western and Asian counties. It's mainly growing in parts of Africa like Nigeria and the Sahara.

 

[Ferdinand Bardamu]

Population demographics are declining in most Western and Asian counties. It's mainly growing in parts of Africa like Nigeria and the Sahara.

Yeah IK. If we developed Africa we could bring their population growth down.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Why do you think so?

A litany of reasons

 

[DarkRange55]

Why do you think they inherently evil instead of being programmed with outdated anarchistic survival drives that clash with the modern world and haven't caught up yet?

Idk who commented about existential dread and animals but this is my response -
Humans are not the only creatures that experience existential dread.
Twice, while driving, I have come across a creature that has been struck by a previous car and is lying in the highway unable to move but still conscious.
In both cases, I have seen the look of existential dread in the eyes of the animal. The dread was so obvious that in both cases I have moved the animal out of the road so that it can die in peace.
However, AFAIK humans are the only creatures that dwell on existential dread for extended periods.
I find that the dread usually starts as a beneficial avoidance mechanism, but can persist far too long and become detrimental.

 

[DarkRange55]

@ssserafim
Followup:

• 
  Why do you think that societies inevitably organize themselves in hierarchies?

I don't think that it is inevitable.

• Why do you think that even bees have a social hierarchy? Is a hierarchy just the natural state of organization for social animals?

More efficient decision-making

• I think that humans have transcended nature. Humans have created so many artificial structures. We live in concrete jungles, etc.

So do corals, and, to some extent, termites.

• I don't consider humans to be part of nature.

Still are, but a special case.

• Humans are not essential to the planet.

Neither are mosquitoes.

• Humans aren't a central part of the food chain like "real" animals are

Sure we are - bacteria eat us when we die (and sometimes kill us).

• , the food chain doesn't need us, even though we're at the top.

Irrelevant to being part of nature

• There are plenty of other apex predators to choose from.

Which are also parts of nature

• Our presence or absence on this planet makes no difference.

Bullshit, We're probably already the third most important species in the ecosystem (after the most common phytoplankton and its main virus), and we're the only species that can save the planet from the sun.

• Humans are inherently abnormal and different from other species, only humanity has consciousness and is "intelligent"

We have progressed further than other species

• I think that AI could be implemented in a constantly growing economic model that is not dependent on population growth. Instead of the population doing the work, AI would do it instead. I believe that AI will cause unprecedented changes for the economy and society. I think that it could result in a utopia or dystopia. Either way, it will completely change the world. What do you think about AI? Do you think that it poses a danger to society? What are your thoughts on possible futures with AI?

I agree with those thoughts.

• What makes AI "artificial?" Just because it's not organic/biological?

artificial /är″tə-fĭsh′əl/ : adjective : Made by humans, especially in imitation of something natural.

 

[RosebyAnyName]

To answer the original question, yes. It's not even that complicated to explain why: climate change, horrific large-scale wars for no (justifiable) reason, and the very fact that we are capable of acting maliciously far beyond the ability of any other animal even over the most unimportant and trite reasons.

Sure, not everyone acts on the human ability to be truly despicable, but there's always going to be at least one a-hole who ruins everything for everyone, and who inevitably always ends up with all the power too. Even if there's only two humans left on the entire planet, then there's the potential for a power imbalance, and therefore there will inevitably be a power imbalance, and therefore there will inevitably be an abuse of power. With humans it's never a matter of if, but when.

 

[DarkRange55]

This video literally sums up everybody on this forum lol

This video will also probably piss off everyone or at least disappoint them. Lol.