Method Will Argon Regulator Work with Nitrogen Tank?

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

I just realized that I had mistakenly bought a regulator for Argon and not for Nitrogen. I let a bit of gas flow through it and the regulator is clearly doing it's job, but I'm worried that I won't get the flow rate right. Will this impede my ctb? I looked at a few other threads but I had trouble finding a conclusive answer that wasn't contradicted by someone else. Should I get my tank filled with Argon? Should I try to find a Nitrogen flowmeter and regulator? Or can I adjust the flowrate and ctb with relative certainty? I have a 40 cu ft. tank from a welding shop (so it's pure, right) and have only let a small amount out for testing.

 

[how2toGetout]

I just realized that I had mistakenly bought a regulator for Argon and not for Nitrogen. I let a bit of gas flow through it and the regulator is clearly doing it's job, but I'm worried that I won't get the flow rate right. Will this impede my ctb? I looked at a few other threads but I had trouble finding a conclusive answer that wasn't contradicted by someone else. Should I get my tank filled with Argon? Should I try to find a Nitrogen flowmeter and regulator? Or can I adjust the flowrate and ctb with relative certainty? I have a 40 cu ft. tank from a welding shop (so it's pure, right) and have only let a small amount out for testing.

i had same question as @xXSarac3nSlay3rXx , but no one has so far answered my threads or posts, regarding Argon Regulator/Flowmeter usage for Nitrogen gas. I am unable to find a conclusive answer so far, either, after searching numerous threads related to keywords like Argon, Nitrogen, etc.
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But my guess is that Argon Regulator works for Nitrogen.

From what i've been reading, an Argon Regulator comes with a Flowmeter built into the Regulator.

Does the Regulator you ordered have a Flowmeter feature to it? If it is, is it a Flowmeter for Argon? It may indicate on the flowmeter tube thing (if it says 'Argon' on it).

 

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

The product has a regulator and a flowmeter. Search Betooll CGA580 on Amazon.

 

[how2toGetout]

The product has a regulator and a flowmeter. Search Betooll CGA580 on Amazon.

is the one you have
BETOOLL Argon/CO2 MIG TIG Flow meter Gas Regulator Gauge 0-60 SCFH 0-4500 Psi CGA580 Inlet Connection
?
I see the item picture has TWO flowmeters? What is another flowmeter for?

The description says something about Outlets, one being female 9/16" x 18 nut or the other being male 5/8" UNF-18RH ..

But both Outlets look exactly the same.. i don't understand why there are two flowmeters.. why are there two instead of one? Can anyone provide explanation?

 

[Lookingforabus]

I just realized that I had mistakenly bought a regulator for Argon and not for Nitrogen. I let a bit of gas flow through it and the regulator is clearly doing it's job, but I'm worried that I won't get the flow rate right. Will this impede my ctb? I looked at a few other threads but I had trouble finding a conclusive answer that wasn't contradicted by someone else. Should I get my tank filled with Argon? Should I try to find a Nitrogen flowmeter and regulator? Or can I adjust the flowrate and ctb with relative certainty? I have a 40 cu ft. tank from a welding shop (so it's pure, right) and have only let a small amount out for testing.

Get it filled with argon, or see the attached file for the conversion rate. Assuming you want 15 LPM of nitrogen, set it so the displayed flow rate is 21 LPM. With 40 cu ft and and a real flow rate of 15 LPM, you'd have over 75 minutes of gas flow, which is enough to die 2 or 3 times. Assuming you only need to die once, you've got more than you need.

If you're a cat, and need to die 9 times, see if you can find a tank that's at least 120 cu ft.

 

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

is the one you have
BETOOLL Argon/CO2 MIG TIG Flow meter Gas Regulator Gauge 0-60 SCFH 0-4500 Psi CGA580 Inlet Connection
?
I see the item picture has TWO flowmeters? What is another flowmeter for?

The description says something about Outlets, one being female 9/16" x 18 nut or the other being male 5/8" UNF-18RH ..

But both Outlets look exactly the same.. i don't understand why there are two flowmeters.. why are there two instead of one? Can anyone provide explanation?

Yes, that's the one. I don't know why it has two meters; I don't know much about how these work frankly.

Get it filled with argon, or see the attached file for the conversion rate. Assuming you want 15 LPM of nitrogen, set it so the displayed flow rate is 21 LPM. With 40 cu ft and and a real flow rate of 15 LPM, you'd have over 75 minutes of gas flow, which is enough to die 2 or 3 times. Assuming you only need to die once, you've got more than you need.

If you're a cat, and need to die 9 times, see if you can find a tank that's at least 120 cu ft.

Thanks: this is what I needed. I feel more confident now that this will work.

 

[how2toGetout]

Get it filled with argon, or see the attached file for the conversion rate. Assuming you want 15 LPM of nitrogen, set it so the displayed flow rate is 21 LPM. With 40 cu ft and and a real flow rate of 15 LPM, you'd have over 75 minutes of gas flow, which is enough to die 2 or 3 times. Assuming you only need to die once, you've got more than you need.

If you're a cat, and need to die 9 times, see if you can find a tank that's at least 120 cu ft.

But, according to PDF attached, isn't it the case that you divide 15 LPM with 1.39 (the conversion factor)?
Given that GCF_N2 = 1.0 and GCF_Ar = 1.39,
isn't the conversion supposed to be, 15LPM * (1.0/1.39) = 10.79LPM? So setting the displayed flow rate to 10.79LPM?

 

[Lookingforabus]

I don't know how else to explain it. When using N2 in an Ar flowmeter, the actual flow rate is ~70% the displayed flow rate. If it says 15 it's actually ~10.5. If it says 21, it's actually ~14.7.

If you're having trouble with that, or it's making you anxious, just pay extra for a nitrogen flowmeter to use with nitrogen gas, or use argon gas with an argon flowmeter.

 

[how2toGetout]

I don't know how else to explain it. When using N2 in an Ar flowmeter, the actual flow rate is ~70% the displayed flow rate. If it says 15 it's actually ~10.5. If it says 21, it's actually ~14.7.

If you're having trouble with that, or it's making you anxious, just pay extra for a nitrogen flowmeter to use with nitrogen gas, or use argon gas with an argon flowmeter.

I was thinking this way:
The displayed flow rate would be 10.79LPM displayed on the Argon flowmeter, but the actual Nitrogen flow rate would be 15LPM. So, if it says 15, it's actually ~20.85 (=15*1.39). If it says 21, ~29.19 (=21*1.39).

If you're having trouble with that, or it's making you anxious, just pay extra for a nitrogen flowmeter to use with nitrogen gas, or use argon gas with an argon flowmeter.

So it's best to just go with Nitrogen flowmeter, instead of Argon regulator/flowmeter, to be sure without doing the conversion method. Only thing is that for Nitrogen, the Nitrogen regulator and Nitrogen flowmeter don't come as a single item. But Argon regulators mostly have flowmeter feature built into them. Why is this the case?

 

[Neville1]

But, according to PDF attached, isn't it the case that you divide 15 LPM with 1.39 (the conversion factor)?
Given that GCF_N2 = 1.0 and GCF_Ar = 1.39,
isn't the conversion supposed to be, 15LPM * (1.0/1.39) = 10.79LPMhttps://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/an-article-on-sn.9653/#post-172475 So setting the displayed flow rate to 10.79LPM?

The LPM on the left of your equation is the argon gauge displayed flow. The result is the actual flow; that is the volume of N2.

Look at the last example in the PDF. For the argon gauge reading of 100 the actual flow of N2 Is 72; that is .72 of the reading.

To get the desired actual flow of N2 of 15 divide the actual flow by the CF. So 15 / (1 / 1.39) ~ 21. The gauge should be set to 21 LPM.

 

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

Should I go ahead and buy these? They can both ship by tomorrow.

 

[how2toGetout]

The LPM on the left of your equation is the argon gauge displayed flow. The result is the actual flow; that is the volume of N2.

Look at the last example in the PDF. For the argon gauge reading of 100 the actual flow of N2 Is 72; that is .72 of the reading.

To get the desired actual flow of N2 of 15 divide the actual flow by the CF. So 15 / (1 / 1.39) ~ 21. The gauge should be set to 21 LPM.

Okay, i get the math part, but intuitively, why N2 gas (which is lighter than Ar gas) would be flowing slower (@.72LPM) than the heavier Argon gas (@1LPM), given that both N2 gas and Ar gas have same volume, if the reading on Argon gauge is reading 1LPM?

 

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

Okay, i get the math part, but intuitively, why N2 gas (which is lighter than Ar gas) would be flowing slower (@.72LPM) than the heavier Argon gas (@1LPM), given that both N2 gas and Ar gas have same volume, if the reading on Argon gauge is reading 1LPM?

I know it's more money, but I might just buy the right equipment. I could still return the Ar regulator. Better safe than sorry I guess.

 

[how2toGetout]

Okay, i get the math part, but intuitively, why N2 gas (which is lighter than Ar gas) would be flowing slower (@.72LPM) than the heavier Argon gas (@1LPM), given that both N2 gas and Ar gas have same volume, if the reading on Argon gauge is reading 1LPM?

The more i think about this issue, the more it does not make sense..

i keep having a feeling that N2 gas would be flowing faster than 1LPM, when the reading on Argon flowmeter says 1LPM.

Is the conversion factor somehow opposite? Am i thinking too hard and overthinking this? Because it's just a bit counter-intuitive to think that N2 would flow slower than 1LPM, when the Argon flowmeter says 1LPM.

 

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

The more i think about this issue, the more it does not make sense..

i keep having a feeling that N2 gas would be flowing faster than 1LPM, when the reading on Argon flowmeter says 1LPM.

Is the conversion factor somehow opposite? Am i thinking too hard and overthinking this? Because it's just a bit counter-intuitive to think that N2 would flow slower than 1LPM, when the Argon flowmeter says 1LPM.

I don't know. I was planning to ctb Sunday afternoon but could do Monday if I have to. Both the N flow meter and regulator can be here by then.

 

[how2toGetout]

I don't know. I was planning to ctb Sunday afternoon but could do Monday if I have to. Both the N flow meter and regulator can be here by then.

i've been reading Nitrogen method needs "practice runs". I read that Nitrogen method is not a easy set-up and go type of method.

If you haven't read 'Exit bag and inert gas megathread' (started by TiredHorse) in detail, i think you shouldn't try this method too soon without knowing enough about it. Setting up exit bag and hose are also important part of the method. I don't know much about the method myself, but i think you shouldn't planning on ctb too soon when you're not ready.

If you're not sure about anything, i really think it's best that you use Nitrogen regulator and Nitrogen flowmeter, rather than guessing what the correct calculation will be for nitrogen flow rate (using an Argon regulator/flowmeter). I think Lookingforbus also recommended (in this thread) using Nitrogen regulator + Nitrogen flowmeter (if you're not sure). See couple posts up above:

If you're having trouble with that, or it's making you anxious, just pay extra for a nitrogen flowmeter to use with nitrogen gas, or use argon gas with an argon flowmeter.

In any case, the reason why the "flow rate" is important to be at least 15 Lpm is explained by Lookingforabus (in another thread called "Nitrogen regulator"):

The major danger from having the flow rate too high is that your tank empties before you're dead, then air enters your bag, keeps you alive, and you could end up surviving, possibly with brain damage.

Contrary to what some others have posted, you don't have to worry about the bag flying off or bursting if you use the recommended materials and method, because the bag is thick and is not sealed around the head.

If the flow rate is too low, the risk is that enough air will enter the bag to keep you alive, because you don't seal it airtight over your head.

15 liters per minute is the flow rate recommended, because that's the average amount of gas used by us humans.

 

[frees]

The LPM on the left of your equation is the argon gauge displayed flow. The result is the actual flow; that is the volume of N2.

Look at the last example in the PDF. For the argon gauge reading of 100 the actual flow of N2 Is 72; that is .72 of the reading.

To get the desired actual flow of N2 of 15 divide the actual flow by the CF. So 15 / (1 / 1.39) ~ 21. The gauge should be set to 21 LPM.

The table you are using for gas correction factors is for thermal based flow meters. Thermal based flow meters measure gas flow by the cooling of an electrically heated sensor. With a known heating power the temperature is proportional to the mass flow. Different gases need corrections mainly due to different molar mass i think.

Floating ball type meters need corrections for different gases due to their density. The ball is more or less buyoant. In thicker argon the ball floats higher than in thinner nitrogen at the same flow.



When using a ball type flow meter calibrated for argon to measure nitrogen the correct setting is 12,5 lpm when aiming for 15 lpm.

Using the attached table for conversion factor we get 15 lpm / (1.18 / 0.98) = 12.46 lpm

 

[how2toGetout]

Floating ball type meters need corrections for different gases due to their density. The ball is more or less buyoant. In thicker argon the ball floats higher than in thinner nitrogen at the same flow.

View attachment 15910

When using a ball type flow meter calibrated for argon to measure nitrogen the correct setting is 18 lpm when aiming for 15 lpm.

Using the attached table for conversion factor we get 1.18 / 0.98 * 15 lpm = 18.06 lpm

If argon is "thicker" (in mass-density) than nitrogen, and thus making the ball float higher (at the same flow rate), then shouldn't the correct setting be 15 lpm * (0.98/1.18) = 12.46 lpm? since you are aiming for 15 lpm of nitrogen to actually flow? (all the while the argon flow gauge indicates 12.46 lpm)?

 

[frees]

If argon is "thicker" (in mass-density) than nitrogen, and thus making the ball float higher (at the same flow rate), then shouldn't the correct setting be 15 lpm * (0.98/1.18) = 12.46 lpm? since you are aiming for 15 lpm of nitrogen to actually flow? (all the while the argon flow gauge indicates 12.46 lpm)?

Fucking hell, you are right. Thanks!
Edit: have double checked and edited my above post

 

[Pistolero114]

If you have a standard sized regulator then it should work with nitrogen. What size nitrogen tank are you using? One of the best if torpedoes as we called them?

 

[xXSarac3nSlay3rXx]

If you have a standard sized regulator then it should work with nitrogen. What size nitrogen tank are you using? One of the best if torpedoes as we called them?

I'm using a 40 cf tank.

 

[lazyquestionkid]

Wait so I shouldn't put 21 Lpm on the argon Flowmeter but instead I should put 12.4 lpm to equal 15 lpm for nitrogen.

 

[Greenberg]

Wait so I shouldn't put 21 Lpm on the argon Flowmeter but instead I should put 12.4 lpm to equal 15 lpm for nitrogen.

You are correct. Best, G

 

[lazyquestionkid]

unrelated but have a 20cft cylinder and I just opened it for a few seconds I think maybe a minute cause I didn't close it right away (but the flow meter was closed and I don't think any air came out) just to make sure it works. will I still have enough gas to confidently kill me or should I buy a 40cft tank so I won't have to worry about this

You are correct. Best, G

also how confident are you that its 12.4 lpm? I'm sorry I just don't wanna mess up. I think my tank was open for a little longer than I thought but the flow meter was closed am I still okay. the flow meter would've and regulator would've changed if air was coming out right?

 

[Greenberg]

unrelated but have a 20cft cylinder and I just opened it for a few seconds I think maybe a minute cause I didn't close it right away (but the flow meter was closed and I don't think any air came out) just to make sure it works. will I still have enough gas to confidently kill me or should I buy a 40cft tank so I won't have to worry about this

also how confident are you that its 12.4 lpm? I'm sorry I just don't wanna mess up. I think my tank was open for a little longer than I thought but the flow meter was closed am I still okay. the flow meter would've and regulator would've changed if air was coming out right?

In my blog, there are complete calculations provided as to how 12.4LPM was arrived at.

 

[lazyquestionkid]

I just tried a very pathetic attempted to kill myself using this method. I did everything correct I was just a little but impatient and didn't let the bag filled up completely and put it over my face. I let it flow for at max 3 minutes probably less for a flow rate of 26 cft (12lpm) which is suppose to equal 15lpm since I had to compensate for using an argon (I'm using nitrogen) Flowmeter. Anyways I immediately took of the bag after taking 2 deep breaths and closed the tank. I have a 20cft nitrogen tank do I still have enough gas to confidently kill myself?