Discussion Why would some of us on here oppose to preventing pro-lifers from living their best lives?

[TAW122]

I wanted to address this many months ago, but hadn't had a chance until now, and I suppose I will do a 2-in-1 thread, to discuss a point that @Alucard made in one of his well written, thoughtful threads, Neither Pro-Life nor Pro-Death but Pro-Choice (short philosophical article) and to explain my reasoning.

The first part of this thread is establishing the definition of pro-death and explaining why I'm not in full agreeance (This isn't to put down Alucard, it's just that my definition is different from his) with what pro-mortalism is or pro-death. In his quote, he said:

* To be Pro-Death is to incite others to suicide, prevent them from living well, even kill them or let them die when they want to live.

I don't fully agree with this definition because of the part "prevent them from living well" is not necessarily linked to death, but simply making pro-lifers life less enjoyable. It also isn't necessarily illegal, but just anything that could reduce their enjoyment of their life (being a bit more miserable, having a less than optimal day, having less enjoyment (instead of 5-star enjoyment, they have 4-star enjoyment), etc.).

With that definition established, the next part is more of a discussion on the question:
Why are some others on here against the idea of making pro-lifers' lives (slightly) more miserable, difficult, and/or less enjoyable for them?

(Note: I'm not encouraging anyone to go out to do harm or to actively make pro-lifers lives miserable, I'm simply having a discussion mainly out of curiosity and trying to understand the reasoning of others on here).

The way I see it is they (pro-lifers) deprived us of a peaceful, dignified exit, or even any exit at all (restricting and/or banning all effective, reliable means to check out, not legalizing or opposing voluntary euthanasia, and of course contributing to the conditions (involuntary commitment, forced detainment, invasion of privacy, meddling in our lives, and more; all under the guise of 'concern' or 'help', all of which only make us want to CTB even more). Now, I get some might say, but we shouldn't stoop down to their level, basically taking the high horse and being 'better' than the people who oppress us. Some say but it doesn't help out situation (which makes sense), and more. Is there any other reasoning that isn't already stated that perhaps why people would be against making pro-lifers lives a bit less enjoyable, a bit more miserable?

Finally, I will end with the note that, no I don't plan on actively ruining pro-lifers lives nor do I encourage people to do so. I just want to hear the reasoning of other pro-choicers here and also understand a perspective that isn't widely encountered. This is simply just a discussion to understand the reasoning of others on here.

 

[LookingOverTheEdge]

Well written! I've mentioned things along these lines several times in my other posts.
We are all here for the same reason. One way or another, we're suffering. And we're at our limits.
You can't understand this mindset unless you've been in it. It's that simple.
I think that the people I see referred to as 'pro lifers' genuinely have good intentions for the most part. For some it might just be for a bit of virtue signalling, and fuck those people frankly. But most are genuine enough.
They simply can't understand our mentality. Can't understand that their solutions are not solutions that we desire, or in a lot of cases can even make a difference. That's not their fault, and it shouldn't be held against them.
We can understand their mentality, I think. They see suicide as a tragedy, and really, it is. Would any of us be here if there were an alternative where we could be happy?
Sadly, that's not a possibility for everyone, and they can't get their heads around that part.
Anyway before this turns into an endless ramble. My belief, is though we may not welcome their help or solutions. We should at least try to understand them, rather than let our depression make us instantly hostile. We can, and should take the high ground. We may be suffering, but I know damn well that I don't want others to suffer along with me if I can help it. Hell I wish that I could stop everyone else here from suffering and fix it all for them if I could. The only difference between me and a 'pro lifer', I know that I can't. Only we can help ourselves, or not.
That's my belief. Thank you for reading and sorry for the rant.

 

[Dot]

I.m.o thre = diffrnce betwn fightng fr ur own caus & seekng revnge on opponnts -- am thnkng of Fixrs specfclly in ths xampl

Workng 2wrds pro-chce & indivdl autnmy aims via advcy & spport & legslatn cn hlp furthr a pro-chce caus

Tryn2 mke 'pro-lfe' ppls lves misrble ds nt furthr n.e gnuine caus othr thn revnge & persnl satsfactn of embittrd indvls-- n/ biggr pictre wld b advncd thru d/ doin ths & persnl vndettas cld ptentlly weakn our own argmnts whch = xactly wht thy d/ 2 thmslves thru thr own abusve b-havrs

Th/ only potentl benft I.m.o = tacticl reductn of mrale of th/ opponnts 2 weakn thr rsolve bt givn wht drves thm am nt sre tht wld b th/ outcme of sch actvties

 

[SamTam33]

I want nothing more than for pro-lifers to fuck off and leave us alone.

So any words or action I take against them is for the sole purpose of encouraging them to fuck off. Not necessarily to make them miserable.

But if I could haunt people in the afterlife, I'd haunt the shit out of some pro-lifers.

 

[FuneralCry]

Those who are pro life now will probably end up suffering a great deal eventually, and then they will finally be forced to confront the harsh reality of this existence. This is because as humans all that we are destined for is to reach a very old age and then just deteriorate, and there is no limit as to how much we can potentially be tortured in life. Pro lifers may try to force others to stay here and justify this with their delusions but it would be different if they ended up in a situation where they no longer see existence as being worth enduring and then they would likely wish for ctb methods. I look down on pro lifers and see what they stand for as being so ridiculous.

Many of them will likely be punished by life soon enough as nobody can guarantee that they won't end up in a situation of very extreme suffering, and those who are against suicide and take action to make suicide as difficult as possible for people, for example campaigning to ban methods or whatever deserve to have their delusional beliefs shattered. Maybe many suicidal people see it as being unnecessary to take action to make pro lifers suffer more as those who are suicidal know that the pro lifers could potentially be one step away from being like them. Life could very easily get much worse for anyone at any moment. I mean you hear of many suicidal people who previously wanted to live.

 

[makethepainstop]

I want nothing more than for pro-lifers to fuck off and leave us alone.

So any words or action I take against them is for the sole purpose of encouraging them to fuck off. Not necessarily to make them miserable.

But if I could haunt people in the afterlife, I'd haunt the shit out of some pro-lifers.

You and me both and oh how I'd love doing that!

 

[TAW122]

Excellent responses and I like many of the additional reasons as to why some people on here oppose preventing pro-lifers from living their best lives.

@LookingOverTheEdge This is true for most pro-lifers, they are ignorant of the truth and how they understand the right to die. They do not understand us (the generic ones at least). As for the virtue signalers, yes those are very problematic as they contribute (little to) nothing in terms of finding solutions. Also, no worries about the rant, you made your post pretty clearly and I can understand it. :)

@Dot I believe I understand what you wrote. I like the differentiation between fighting for only personal gain versus pushing for advocacy and legislative support to help further a pro-choice cause. Additionally, you raise a good point that taking 'pot-shots' at pro-lifers may even harm our own cause. I think you may be correct that at best, taking petty actions against pro-lifers may lower their morale and resolve, but ultimately, it would still not solve the bigger problem, which is how they see the world and their perspective.

@FuneralCry Good post, and sometimes, I wonder if more pro-lifers suffer (not that I wish that for them, but just hypothetically speaking), would that in the long term, help our cause as more pro-lifers wake up and see the truth? Of course, I'm not counting the pro-lifers who are adamant and set in stone, they would never change and would likely hold on to the end of time/life. For the majority of pro-lifers, assuming to someday be former pro-lifers, do you think they would join our ranks and push us closer to having legalized voluntary euthanasia for everyone, or would they just stop spreading pro-life garbage but nothing else?

 

[FuneralCry]

@FuneralCry Good post, and sometimes, I wonder if more pro-lifers suffer (not that I wish that for them, but just hypothetically speaking), would that in the long term, help our cause as more pro-lifers wake up and see the truth? Of course, I'm not counting the pro-lifers who are adamant and set in stone, they would never change and would likely hold on to the end of time/life. For the majority of pro-lifers, assuming to someday be former pro-lifers, do you think they would join our ranks and push us closer to having legalized voluntary euthanasia for everyone, or would they just stop spreading pro-life garbage but nothing else?

The problem is that in this world the right to die is such a stigmatised subject and any conversation around this is usually censored so I could imagine a lot of those people staying quiet and not doing anything that could bring awareness to the issue of a lack of a peaceful right to die. And also, I just think the majority of suicidal people are focused on their own situation and finding a way to exit rather than spending time and energy on trying to campaign for our right to die, so I cannot imagine that more people becoming suicidal would really help much. There probably are a lot more people than we think in support of voluntary euthanasia but they just don't admit it. I can imagine that even many who are not suicidal now would want it if they ended up with a horrific health condition or wished to avoid the deterioration from old age.