Why this forum is an easy target, or what's wrong with SaSu.

[YourNeighbor]

I thought I'd toss out some observations about why this forum is such an easy target for media, and why there is merit in a lot of outside criticism of this place. I don't expect anything to change of course, but thought some self-reflection might be useful anyway. Main issues:

- Tolerance of hate (even coddling it), and specifically misogyny (usually from self-identified incels) and racism (in the form of neo-Nazi inspired profiles, references to white victimhood and Jewish global conspiracies, and coded attacks on "rappers," for example).

- Tolerance of minors/cryptic minors exploring suicide. A substantial number of threads here go along the lines of: "how do I order SN to my home without my parents finding out," "how do I ctb in my bedroom without my parents hearing it," and the like. It should be no surprise that most people who might see such a thread are repulsed, regardless of one's views of the right to choose to live or die when made by an informed and competent adult. What's worse is that these threads regularly receive constructive feedback.

- A sizeable number (certainly not all, or even a majority) of comments encouraging or supporting suicide in response to any complaint posted. No, the comments aren't as direct as "you should kill yourself." Obviously. But many comments respond citing suicide as a good thing in response to comments that clearly show someone is despairing over a temporary issue and may simply be in crisis mode.

The first two issues could probably be addressed (I realize they won't, given the origins of this place), while the third would be much more difficult, given it's a bit more subjective issue. Because of the above, even those who fully agree with the right of competent, informed individuals to fully control whether they live or die can find much about this place that is disturbing.

 

[Toxic Positivity]

The first two issues could probably be addressed (I realize they won't, given the origins of this place),

What do you mean by this? What's the origin of the site?

 

[YourNeighbor]

What do you mean by this? What's the origin of the site?

People with more history here may be better versed on this issue, but my understanding is that the founders were active in incel communities, which in turn often overlap/are sympathetic to white supremacist views/white victimhood. I'm not suggesting that most mods/users here espouse those views, to be clear.

 

[AtMostOkay]

I've seen very little evidence of that since I've been here, and never have I been witness to anyone being encouraged to take their life. In fact, I've seen people here - myself included - experience hope in camaraderie, validation, acceptance. There are the same amount of jerks here as any other forum or in person gathering, but think it no more and no less than representation elsewhere.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Your second point can't really be established as a black and white dichotomy, as many people here still live with their parents well into adulthood and may not have ever experienced a large degree of independence. Especially those with mental/physical illnesses.

Every time I have seen one of those sorts of posts, the person usually goes on to eleborate that they are an unemployed 20-30 year old forced to live with their parents due to finances, or a uni student who has yet to leave the family home. Or they live in a culture where it is customary to reside with your relatives throughout adult life.

A more prominent cause for suspicion is people frequently mentioning high school/secondary school or using terminology associated with it, and those cases should certainly be flagged to moderators when they crop up.

However, I don't think living with family can automatically be correlated with being underage.

 

[Toxic Positivity]

People with more history here may be better versed on this issue, but my understanding is that the founders were active in incel communities, which in turn often overlap/are sympathetic to white supremacist views/white victimhood. I'm not suggesting that most mods/users here espouse those views, to be clear.

I haven't seen a lot of what you're talking about, to be honest. Most of the time when someone spouting incel ideology pops up, they get slapped down, often by a woman. A woman coined the term to begin with. Anyway, it sounds like you are describing a particular kind of person who does not seem to be more common here than anywhere else on the internet.

 

[Crazy4u]

Can you provide 3-5 examples of your third point?

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

These are your own feelings about the forum, which don't reflect reality. You may find others that agree with you, but this is not an accurate "outside-looking-in" assessment.

We're not an easy target because people tend not to be fans of rapper lifestyles, lol.

C- for effort.

 

[Simba]

- Tolerance of minors/cryptic minors exploring suicide. A substantial number of threads here go along the lines of: "how do I order SN to my home without my parents finding out," "how do I ctb in my bedroom without my parents hearing it," and the like.

Im 25 with autism ,depression and other disabilities and still living with my parents ,even tho i want to go to independent living again..

 

[AtMostOkay]

And I'm in my 50s, living with and caring for my dying father. Beware buzz words that do not define the nuanced humanity sharing this space.

 

[NSA]

This place is attacked simply because its different and disturbing to regular, nonsuicidal people. Thats the only reason they need. All that other stuff is just an excuse.

 

[Weebster]

The media ruined this country. Just imagine a news person who tells the daily news without commentary and a debate panel.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

1. Only allow men that can prove they've had sex at with at least ten different women to join.
2. Ban whites that focus on the color of their SN.
3. Remove the kindergarten megathread.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

[Examples?]

 

[FuneralCry]

You do not know anything about peoples lives, other peoples problems may seem temporary or insignificant to you, but you have no idea as to what people are going through. Not everyone shares everything about their lives on the internet. If someone wants to live or die then that is their choice. You have no right to interfere or tell them that their reasons for dying are not valid. Everyone has different limits as to what they can cope with and everyone experiences life differently. To not respect someones personal decision about their life is incredibly insensitive.

 

[Symbiote]

Media agenda is very simple. SUICIDE is bad, Living forever with illness is GOOD.

 

[Chinaski]

[Examples?]

Honestly think at this stage if you need examples of these, particularly the first criteria, it's possibly down to individual tolerance levels because it absolutely exists, to the point where providing examples would imo be unfair in singling out individual users.

I haven't seen a lot of what you're talking about, to be honest. Most of the time when someone spouting incel ideology pops up, they get slapped down, often by a woman. A woman coined the term to begin with. Anyway, it sounds like you are describing a particular kind of person who does not seem to be more common here than anywhere else on the internet.

The opposite is true in my experience, those challenging some of the more unappealing aspects of this particular discourse are more likely to find themselves sided against than those who propel it, and each time it's defended it is, by extension, encouraged. Further, etymology of "incel" is irrelevant and does not give a free pass to misogyny imo, such a weird crutch to lean on.

 

[NSA]

oint where providing examples would imo be unfair in singling out individual users.

I don't understand this line of reasoning. If you have a problem with them, then why is naming them unfair? You're already talking about them now.

Call me dumb, but this whole thing feels kinda passive-agressive.

 

[Chinaski]

Call me dumb, but this whole thing feels kinda passive-agressive.

This would be accurate had l not confronted the examples directly at the point of posting. I just don't see the benefit of copy pasting a link and saying "look at this asshole".

 

[NSA]

This would be accurate had l not confronted the examples directly at the point of posting. I just don't see the benefit of copy pasting a link and saying "look at this asshole".

That would certainly help with context.

 

[Symbiote]

This would be accurate had l not confronted the examples directly at the point of posting. I just don't see the benefit of copy pasting a link and saying "look at this asshole".

Yeah, but if you see something, you can hit the report button and ask us "hey look at this asshole". That works much better than calling them out on a forum.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Honestly think at this stage if you need examples of these, particularly the first criteria, it's possibly down to individual tolerance levels because it absolutely exists, to the point where providing examples would imo be unfair in singling out individual users.

Okay, maybe it is down to my personal tolerance levels. I am not implying that the OP is making things up, I am just very wary of terms such as "neo-Nazi inspired", "coded attack" etc. which can be used both to describe legitimately concerning things (which might've cropped up here without me noticing, wouldn't deny it) and to refer to rather benevolent stuff. Same with the third point raised, the whole concept of encouraging suicide but not saying it directly is very vague and could refer both to legitimately problematic stuff and to any response that isn't pro-life. I'm just trying to understand how big the problem really is.

 

[Chinaski]

Yeah, but if you see something, you can hit the report button and ask us "hey look at this asshole". That works much better than calling them out on a forum.

It doesn't though, frankly - as evidenced by the fact that you are a moderator who laugh-reacts posts on this issue in a condescending way and are now suggesting your individual judgement on this is somehow to be trusted.

 

[noname223]

I thought I'd toss out some observations about why this forum is such an easy target for media, and why there is merit in a lot of outside criticism of this place. I don't expect anything to change of course, but thought some self-reflection might be useful anyway. Main issues:

- Tolerance of hate (even coddling it), and specifically misogyny (usually from self-identified incels) and racism (in the form of neo-Nazi inspired profiles, references to white victimhood and Jewish global conspiracies, and coded attacks on "rappers," for example).

- Tolerance of minors/cryptic minors exploring suicide. A substantial number of threads here go along the lines of: "how do I order SN to my home without my parents finding out," "how do I ctb in my bedroom without my parents hearing it," and the like. It should be no surprise that most people who might see such a thread are repulsed, regardless of one's views of the right to choose to live or die when made by an informed and competent adult. What's worse is that these threads regularly receive constructive feedback.

- A sizeable number (certainly not all, or even a majority) of comments encouraging or supporting suicide in response to any complaint posted. No, the comments aren't as direct as "you should kill yourself." Obviously. But many comments respond citing suicide as a good thing in response to comments that clearly show someone is despairing over a temporary issue and may simply be in crisis mode.

The first two issues could probably be addressed (I realize they won't, given the origins of this place), while the third would be much more difficult, given it's a bit more subjective issue. Because of the above, even those who fully agree with the right of competent, informed individuals to fully control whether they live or die can find much about this place that is disturbing.

I am not sure how I can make a good response.

When I reported hate speech I think very often it was removed but that is only my experience.

Maybe this website really needs stricter rules in order to avoid encouragement of suicide. I would be in favor of it. I once have made the unpopular opinion to ban goodbye threads. I am not sure if that helped. I don't know what exactly the definition of encouragement is but stricter rules might help the members to be more aware of this topic.

I personally think people should be careful with committing suicide because the decision can't be undone. I have often expressed that opinion. To be honest I don't know exactly the solution for this problem. Maybe the rules about suicide encouragement should be more explicit. WIth examples what is allowed and what crosses a line.
There should be more education on it.

Concerning minors I also don't know exactly what to do. I have asked some people if they are minors because I was not sure about their age and noone said yes. Maybe it is not good to believe in their honesty. Once I have asked that because the person described their life in school. And talking about schools is kind of weird in a forum for adults. Then the discussion began that some people repeated a year in school or that the school system is different in some countries. I also was an adult in my last year in school. And I am still living with one of my parents in the same house. I think in a forum in which many experience living with crippling depression it is not that seldom.
I often can't really differentiate who could be a minor I find that difficult. I am often in general quite paranoid about other people in this forum. I can only ask everyone to report a person when the person might be a minor.

There was once this idea for an age verification. I think many members were against it. But to be honest I don't know a better solution for this problem. Though I feel uncomfortable to share a picture of my ID with this website. I mean the founders of this website were leaked some months ago. I talk a lot about intimate and embarrassing topics in this forum.
But maybe it is the only way to maintain this website?

I hope you have more helpful ideas than me.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Maybe the rules about suicide encouragement should be more explicit. WIth examples what is allowed and what crosses a line.
There should be more education on it.

That sounds like a great idea.

There was once this idea for an age verification. I think many members were against it. But to be honest I don't know a better solution for this problem. Though I feel uncomfortable to share a picture of my ID with this website. I mean the founders of this website were leaked some months ago. I talk a lot about intimate and embarrassing topics in this forum.
But maybe it is the only way to maintain this website?

The issue with minors is a super tricky one. There is no way to make it 100% sure that no minor can access this site. And the idea with sending over pictures of one's ID isn't just problematic because of concerns for ones privacy. If shady people get access to a picture of your ID, being doxxed might not even be your biggest concern, because you may end up with your identity stolen and that is super Serious Business. Sending a picture of your ID over the Internet to complete strangers is an extremely risky and generally ill-advised affair. I am not suggesting that the owners of this site might be scammers, but collecting ID pictures will put immense responsibility upon them when it comes to data security.

 

[Symbiote]

It doesn't though, frankly - as evidenced by the fact that you are a moderator who laugh-reacts posts on this issue in a condescending way and are now suggesting your individual judgement on this is somehow to be trusted.

Hey, I'm just trying to keep the peace on here. It's the least I can do.

 

[Someone123]

- Tolerance of minors/cryptic minors exploring suicide. A substantial number of threads here go along the lines of: "how do I order SN to my home without my parents finding out," "how do I ctb in my bedroom without my parents hearing it," and the like. It should be no surprise that most people who might see such a thread are repulsed, regardless of one's views of the right to choose to live or die when made by an informed and competent adult. What's worse is that these threads regularly receive constructive feedback.

As far as tolerance of minors goes, that's really not the case- you have to say you are 18 to be here, and it's not the policy of this site to require i.d. for this site just like i.d. is not required for other adults only sites.

When people talk about living with their parents, I typically tactfully and respectfully post or pm to try to inquire about a person's age if I respond to the thread, and in the cases that I did people were insistent that they were 26 or 28 years old but still living at home, and in the cases I saw their responses really seemed credible. So many people live at home until their mid to late 20s due to financial reasons these days. I do think it is worth it to tactfully inquire about this if you do interact with a person who says this, because t is clearly the policy here that this site is not for those under 18, for good reason.

 

[YourNeighbor]

Yeah, but if you see something, you can hit the report button and ask us "hey look at this asshole". That works much better than calling them out on a forum.

I reported one comment (maybe a couple), something suggesting Soros and Zionists were behind a global cabal. Was told the comment wasn't anti-Semitic. Other mysoginistic and racist comments and threads abound. Reporting is kind of pointless. I get it though--this is a private site, I'm not paying to be here, those who run it can run it how they like. My post here
was not about asking for any specific result, only pointing out why this site is easy to paint in a bad light. It's not just because there is some public knee-jerk reaction that all suicide is bad and that people should suffer with illness. Most people have much more nuanced views of death and people's right to control their deaths.

So many people live at home until their mid to late 20s due to financial reasons these days. I do think it is worth it to tactfully inquire about this if you do interact with a person who says this, because t is clearly the policy here that this site is not for those under 18, for good reason.

I can't debate that some adults live with their parents. But many comments referencing parents are clearly made by kids, often referencing problems at school and the like. Evem assuming these are comments referencing college or post-secondary school, from a perception point of view (my post here is not about legality, to be clear), a 19 year old is not functionally/cognitively very different from a 17 year old. Anyone who has been around people this age knows, and from a purely scientific point of view we know brains are not mature until the mid-20s. This is consistent with some of the reasons younger folks mention for suicidality, such as stress from school, a break up with a first romance, etc.

Okay, maybe it is down to my personal tolerance levels. I am not implying that the OP is making things up, I am just very wary of terms such as "neo-Nazi inspired", "coded attack" etc.

I'm writing about pretty obvious tropes: folks adopting profiles named with Nazi connotations (Hitler's dog, for one), comments about Zionist/Soros conspiracies, attacks on "rappers," the like.

My point, to repeat, is not "moderate every reference to x or banish user y." This is not my site, it's not my place. The point is simply that as long as hate is tolerated, obvious youth is welcomed, and those with temporary issues and passing despair (as identified in their posts) are met with cultish choruses of "I wish you peace" and "we all deserve to die" this place will be easy to villify. Not saying that all or even most users fall into the foregoing categories. But these observations are also not black swan events, but are pretty regular.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I'm writing about pretty obvious tropes: folks adopting profiles named with Nazi connotations (Hitler's dog, for one), comments about Zionist/Soros conspiracies, attacks on "rappers," the like.

I kind of get your point on this one, and I could debate whether making any neutral reference to Nazi Germany should be seen as unacceptable, but I do get how it can make the site look bad. As for rappers, it might be less obvious than you think, it actually took me a while to connect the dots and understand why it is offensive. I guess it's a cultural thing. I could've been the one bitching about rappers and completely missing the subtext (if any was present at all), so I guess someone else could be that person too.

The point is simply that as long as hate is tolerated, obvious youth is welcomed, and those with temporary issues and passing despair (as identified in their posts) are met with cultish choruses of "I wish you peace" and "we all deserve to die" this place will be easy to villify.

I agree on the hate (I might disagree on definition of hate, but that is not the point), and probably on the second part...but as for the "passing despair" - what could be an alternative to "cultish choruses", really? Should they be ignored? I'm pretty sure a simple "it'll get better" isn't very helpful to anyone who wound up on a site like this...

 

[YourNeighbor]

but as for the "passing despair" - what could be an alternative to "cultish choruses", really? Should they be ignored? I'm pretty sure a simple "it'll get better" isn't very helpful to anyone who wound up on a site like this...

I won't pretend to have easy proposals, and I don't mean to suggest that the issues I outlined (and that others have pointed out in various other threads) are necessarily the rule here. I think most mods, most of the time, are in good faith doing their best. And tone policing is of course generally difficult if not impossible, and usually a bad idea. But it's hard to completely dismiss the criticisms that this place sometimes feels death-cultish when viewing some threads. That may be just something that comes with the territory.