Dying2077

Dying2077

Student
Oct 6, 2023
109
County 1: It has no oil or cotton
The second country: has cotton and oil

The first country wants to harm the second country for the sake of oil and cotton

Why is this happening? Why does the first country not only work with its resources, abandon wars, be content with its resources, and achieve self-sufficiency?
 

Attachments

  • download.jpeg
    download.jpeg
    15.3 KB · Views: 0
  • Like
Reactions: SMmetalhead36, WAITING TO DIE and sserafim
S

samsara_96

Member
Sep 27, 2022
55
The problem of evil is a good question but it is hard to answer. However, this question lies at the heart of Rousseau's and Kant's philosophies (and everyone else who were inspired by them). Earliest form of game theory dealt exactly with the question of cooperation. Since both Rousseau and Kant are extremely religious, the game theoretic approach is used to explain why we should cooperate (but later forms started arguing for doing exactly the opposite). You might enjoy reading Rousseau's and Kant's works if you want to start from somewhere and I will provide a summary of what they said in case you want to check it out.

Rousseau basically says that socialization corrupted our soul and the civilized men can turn on and off their pity/compassion, as opposed to natural men (mostly indigenous communities) and animals. Civilized men act the way you described due to amour-propre which originates in one of the historical stages that Rousseau describes in Discourse in Inequality. Amour-propre is arrogance/vanity and it is the root of evil in civilized communities unless it is trained. As opposed to amour de soi (which is basically preserving the self or SI within the context of this forum), amour-propre makes comparisons and tries to seek confirmation from others. Rousseau suggests two solutions: the first one is establishing direct democracy in which everyone surrenders themselves to the state (which is explained in Social Contract) or through the educational model that he proposes in Emile. However, Rousseau is a fanatic Christian and he sees existence as some sort of a game that God has created. God is training us (or white civilized European men to be more precise) in the same way a parent raises his children. Hence, the game theory is mainly used to portray God's morality. We behave wicked because we have not reached the ideal society yet.

Kant's arguments are generally hard to decipher but I will share my own interpretation of it. Kant, in his third Critique, answers a central philosophical question which Leibniz was also interested in: "Why is the Universe as it is?". Similar to Leibniz, the rationale is because this Universe is the only one that makes God valid for us. Clearly, his argument is extremely detailed and it is hard to capture all the points here. I will skip his ideas on universality of aesthetic judgement and the validity of categories and causal relationship for the human mind which actually is the core of his argument for God but they are long. Kant finds God in the intersection of morality with the physical world. He says that physical/mechanical world could indeed came from randomness but the way our behaviours play out in the physical world cannot be explained with randomness and mechanical principles alone. Our behaviours and the end that we set for ourselves make the highest good on Earth valid for us. (I should warn you beforehand that following is mostly my interpretation of Kant) To make this more concrete, everyone including those wretched politicians want to be "happy" in Aristotelian sense. That is everyone is aiming for the highest good at the individual level. However, this world is structured so that the highest good at the individual level cannot be realized before the highest good at the societal level is realized. The reason is exactly you. Because we are created so that morality is universal since we have a compassion faculty (Kant actually mentions this part). Hence, it is not possible to be truly happy unless enough number of people are happy. Otherwise, we will feel sorry for those who suffer due to injustice. This is also why wretched politicians keep trying to hide their crimes because they know very well that their behaviours are not acceptable because morality is universal and they have compassion. Kant does not offer a solution to this in the same way that Rousseau does but his idea is basically we will reach the highest good on Earth through trial and errors. Eventually people will realize that cooperation is better than Nash-equilibrium. Currently, we are actually going down this route due to environmental crisis. That is either we cooperate and build a better world or only the isolated primitive communities continue to live approaching the ideal society.

To sum up, Rousseau would answer you with noting that because God is testing us this way since he wants the best for us. And Kant would answer you that because eventually we will learn to act better and we are simply trying to turn the world into paradise. My answer is non-existent as of yet but if I have one, I will definitely share it with you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim
Dying2077

Dying2077

Student
Oct 6, 2023
109
The problem of evil is a good question but it is hard to answer. However, this question lies at the heart of Rousseau's and Kant's philosophies (and everyone else who were inspired by them). Earliest form of game theory dealt exactly with the question of cooperation. Since both Rousseau and Kant are extremely religious, the game theoretic approach is used to explain why we should cooperate (but later forms started arguing for doing exactly the opposite). You might enjoy reading Rousseau's and Kant's works if you want to start from somewhere and I will provide a summary of what they said in case you want to check it out.

Rousseau basically says that socialization corrupted our soul and the civilized men can turn on and off their pity/compassion, as opposed to natural men (mostly indigenous communities) and animals. Civilized men act the way you described due to amour-propre which originates in one of the historical stages that Rousseau describes in Discourse in Inequality. Amour-propre is arrogance/vanity and it is the root of evil in civilized communities unless it is trained. As opposed to amour de soi (which is basically preserving the self or SI within the context of this forum), amour-propre makes comparisons and tries to seek confirmation from others. Rousseau suggests two solutions: the first one is establishing direct democracy in which everyone surrenders themselves to the state (which is explained in Social Contract) or through the educational model that he proposes in Emile. However, Rousseau is a fanatic Christian and he sees existence as some sort of a game that God has created. God is training us (or white civilized European men to be more precise) in the same way a parent raises his children. Hence, the game theory is mainly used to portray God's morality. We behave wicked because we have not reached the ideal society yet.

Kant's arguments are generally hard to decipher but I will share my own interpretation of it. Kant, in his third Critique, answers a central philosophical question which Leibniz was also interested in: "Why is the Universe as it is?". Similar to Leibniz, the rationale is because this Universe is the only one that makes God valid for us. Clearly, his argument is extremely detailed and it is hard to capture all the points here. I will skip his ideas on universality of aesthetic judgement and the validity of categories and causal relationship for the human mind which actually is the core of his argument for God but they are long. Kant finds God in the intersection of morality with the physical world. He says that physical/mechanical world could indeed came from randomness but the way our behaviours play out in the physical world cannot be explained with randomness and mechanical principles alone. Our behaviours and the end that we set for ourselves make the highest good on Earth valid for us. (I should warn you beforehand that following is mostly my interpretation of Kant) To make this more concrete, everyone including those wretched politicians want to be "happy" in Aristotelian sense. That is everyone is aiming for the highest good at the individual level. However, this world is structured so that the highest good at the individual level cannot be realized before the highest good at the societal level is realized. The reason is exactly you. Because we are created so that morality is universal since we have a compassion faculty (Kant actually mentions this part). Hence, it is not possible to be truly happy unless enough number of people are happy. Otherwise, we will feel sorry for those who suffer due to injustice. This is also why wretched politicians keep trying to hide their crimes because they know very well that their behaviours are not acceptable because morality is universal and they have compassion. Kant does not offer a solution to this in the same way that Rousseau does but his idea is basically we will reach the highest good on Earth through trial and errors. Eventually people will realize that cooperation is better than Nash-equilibrium. Currently, we are actually going down this route due to environmental crisis. That is either we cooperate and build a better world or only the isolated primitive communities continue to live approaching the ideal society.

To sum up, Rousseau would answer you with noting that because God is testing us this way since he wants the best for us. And Kant would answer you that because eventually we will learn to act better and we are simply trying to turn the world into paradise. My answer is non-existent as of yet but if I have one, I will definitely share it with you.
I don't believe God Is there an evolutionary, scientific or social reason?
 
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim
S

samsara_96

Member
Sep 27, 2022
55
I don't believe God Is there an evolutionary, scientific or social reason?
Yes, it is called the neoliberal economic system which is built on Nash equilibirum. However, it does not guarantee a good end like Rousseau and Kant did. In fact, it justifies moral wickedness using Darwin's idea of survival of the fittest. The idea is if you steal from a powerless person then you increase your chances of survival. The powerless person cannot fight back, so they decrese their own chances of survival. The thief (who plays the economy-game according to the maximize your own profit principle) is more fit to survive than the other one and as a result, he survives; poisoning the society with their terrible genes. However, selfish game theory fails in the case of infinitely repeated games and Kantian Equilibirium (in which people cooperate) wins over the Nash Equilibrium. Take that as you will because I agree that God is not necessary to justify Kantian Equilibrium; God is simply a hope.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim and Dying2077
LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Angelic
Jul 23, 2022
4,253
We come from very violent stock. Our closest extant relatives, chimpanzees, are incredibly vicious. They have found prehistoric human remains with clear evidence of homicide.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAITING TO DIE and sserafim
sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,013
County 1: It has no oil or cotton
The second country: has cotton and oil

The first country wants to harm the second country for the sake of oil and cotton

Why is this happening? Why does the first country not only work with its resources, abandon wars, be content with its resources, and achieve self-sufficiency?
There is no peace in the world because humans exist, and where there are humans there will be conflict. Conflict is inevitable. People are also competitive by nature, people are always seeking to out-do each other.

Someone posted a Russian proverb about a magical fish who would grant a villager anything he wanted but once the villager heard his neighbor would receive twice of the thing, he asked the fish to stab his eye out. This demonstrates the envious nature of humans and how they can't stand other people having more than them. They must have it all!

The first country is greedy and competitive and wants to acquire more resources. It wants more and more. People always want what they don't have, and they're jealous of others. Some people are even green with envy. This leads to conflict
We come from very violent stock. Our closest extant relatives, chimpanzees, are incredibly vicious. They have found prehistoric human remains with clear evidence of homicide.
Off topic but do you think that we should've evolved into human beings? I made a thread on it but not a lot of people replied to it and I want to hear other peoples' thoughts…
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: WAITING TO DIE
WAITING TO DIE

WAITING TO DIE

TORMENTED
Sep 30, 2023
1,539
Because most humans by nature are a stupid, selfish , and vindictive predatory species.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim
brimstonenfire_rain

brimstonenfire_rain

Wonder of U
Jul 13, 2023
37
There can be no peace in the world as long as human beings exist, in simple words the concept of war cannot be separated from the humans, it is ingrained in our nature.
There is no peace in the world because humans exist, and where there are humans there will be conflict. Conflict is inevitable. People are also competitive by nature, people are always seeking to out-do each other.

Someone posted a Russian proverb about a magical fish who would grant a villager anything he wanted but once the villager heard his neighbor would receive twice of the thing, he asked the fish to stab his eye out. This demonstrates the envious nature of humans and how they can't stand other people having more than them. They must have it all!

The first country is greedy and competitive and wants to acquire more resources. It wants more and more. People always want what they don't have, and they're jealous of others. Some people are even green with envy. This leads to conflict

Off topic but do you think that we should've evolved into human beings? I made a thread on it but not a lot of people replied to it and I want to hear other peoples' thoughts…
I dont think I understand the question, the fact that you say "should've" implies a moral or ethical evaluation, which is not applicable to evolutionary biology. Evolution is a scientific description of the origin and development of species on Earth, and does not imply any judgment about what would have been better or worse.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: WAITING TO DIE and sserafim
Namensjemand

Namensjemand

Cursed
Jul 16, 2023
109
How many video games are about maintaining peace?
 
  • Like
Reactions: moondazed, sserafim and WAITING TO DIE
Geist

Geist

F this forum and its members. Nothing but pussies.
Oct 7, 2023
30
It's just not in human nature. Humans are nothing but egoistical, greedy, bloodthirtsy beings that destroy everything they touch if they is any personal gain to be had. One look at our history is enough. It's nothing but wars and violence, and often because of the most laughable reasons, like an invisible man in the sky. Religion has got to be one of humanity's worst inventions ever.

I genuinely believe that we are some kind of space-parasites, a sickness, tumor etc. Something that shouldn't exist. I sincerely hope that we will die out before we find a way to inhabit other planets, because we would bring nothing but destruction everywhere we go.

It really pisses me off how I've been born a human of all things. Space is endless, and I just had to end up here? What a cruel joke.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brimstonenfire_rain and sserafim
sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
9,013
It's just not in human nature. Humans are nothing but egoistical, greedy, bloodthirtsy beings that destroy everything they touch if they is any personal gain to be had. One look at our history is enough. It's nothing but wars and violence, and often because of the most laughable reasons, like an invisible man in the sky. Religion has got to be one of humanity's worst inventions ever.

I genuinely believe that we are some kind of space-parasites, a sickness, tumor etc. Something that shouldn't exist. I sincerely hope that we will die out before we find a way to inhabit other planets, because we would bring nothing but destruction everywhere we go.

It really pisses me off how I've been born a human of all things. Space is endless, and I just had to end up here? What a cruel joke.
Yeah literally. Like out of all the possible things I could've been I was born a human, and onto this planet? It's so annoying to me because I've never even felt like a human being anyways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WAITING TO DIE
sensenmann

sensenmann

this will be the end of me
Jun 14, 2023
141
It's in our nature to destroy ourselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim
Namensjemand

Namensjemand

Cursed
Jul 16, 2023
109
We are not that bad. But we are neither that good.
 
  • Like
Reactions: moondazed
Spiritual survivor

Spiritual survivor

A born again but occasionally suicidal
Feb 13, 2022
509
Because Satan is the God of this world. He wants to destroy God's creation at every turn. The creator God, who also created Satan who was once Lucifer.
 
moondazed

moondazed

ex nihilo nihil fit
Oct 14, 2023
169
County 1: It has no oil or cotton
The second country: has cotton and oil

The first country wants to harm the second country for the sake of oil and cotton

Why is this happening? Why does the first country not only work with its resources, abandon wars, be content with its resources, and achieve self-sufficiency?
The world has been full of evil and greed since its inception. It's a terrible tragedy that befallen us. But, if you want a scientific explanation: it's simple thermodynamics.

On the cellular level, cells can go through a phase called apoptosis. When something has malfunctioned in the cell, it will chemically signal to the surrounding cells that something is wrong. If the surrounding cells can't fix the problem, they will send a chemical signal that, for simplicity sake, tells the cell to commit suicide. And it does. Cold and calculated.

As above, so below, some might say. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

But there's something special in the middle.

World governments may act in calculated ways given their power; what's going on these last few years is the worst part of "civilized" society. But if history tells us anything, its that humans have always been a little crazy when they get power and almost always, the little folk just getting by tend to be pretty loving and nice. If you have any friends or family, tell them you love them. Wave or say hi to a neighbor on an evening walk, if you can. We sometimes are pawns, not kings. What power do we have but to bring even the smallest bit of light into the world.

If you want answers to why things are they way they are and how you can make a difference, read history, study science and keep asking questions. It's not a bad idea to dip your toes into religion, be it to get a historical understanding or become closer to whatever "God" may mean to you. That's what we've been doing for thousands of years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim
ChiseHatori

ChiseHatori

Member
Mar 2, 2023
95
Because everyone makes their own choices, for better or for worse.
 
CrazyDiamond04

CrazyDiamond04

Metal Fan- Wants to hang Under The Oak
May 8, 2023
476
Because of power and the Prisoner's Dilemma.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sserafim

Similar threads

W
Replies
0
Views
107
Suicide Discussion
wavelength
W
voidreverse1982
Replies
3
Views
220
Suicide Discussion
Namelesa
Namelesa
E
Replies
0
Views
89
Suicide Discussion
eternalbliss22
E
resteasy3232
Replies
2
Views
118
Suicide Discussion
Overwhelmed52
O