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noname223

Angelic
Aug 18, 2020
4,661
I cannot understand the moral panic about this issue and why some people are so obsessed about it despite the fact it barely affects their daily life.
There will be soon a voting on a new German "self-determination law". The purpose is to make the life easier for trans people. I don't know all the details but the thread is not about the specific German law. But many conservatives show indignation about this allegedly dangerous law. It reminds me of the assisted suicide law which failed. It was also about self-determination but had not such a good chance to get passed comparitavely.

I cannot understand why people can become so emotional about this trans topic when they are barely affected. For example the bud light ad controversy. Who cares whether they show a trans person in an ad? Why should anyone care about this? And in the US the moral panic seemingly works to a certain degree. I cannot grasp why people prefer such cultural issues over their monetary interests. I don't give a fuck which company makes "woke ads". Why should I care about such a bullshit? Who has the time and energy to invest time in such a completely unnecssary topic. The M&Ms are not allowed to be sexy anymore. Lmao. And politicians even win elections over such issues. However I don't think this emphasis only on such cultural issues won't work in generals because the debate is way too online and normie voters have more important things in mind.

Personally I have the feeling it is similar to the panic about gay and lesbian people in past decades. For most average people the existence of gay people is now completely normal and is accepted by most people. Also gay marriage is far more accepted. My personal feeling is the same will happen with trans people one day.

There are some fears. That being trans becomes a trend especially in younger generations. I think the same fears were unnecessary in the debate about gay people. Of course more people will out themselves if the stigmatization decreases. But in the long run there won't be a huge percentage of trans people. Trans people are just part of the human nature similar to gay people, intersexual, non-binary etc. The difference betwen sex and gender is here important.

There are concerns about irreversible transitions especially for minors. I read about clinics and the potential of getting sued. I don't know enough about the empirical evidence I read pro and con arguments. From what I have read the operation of the genitals is usually not allowed for minors but I am not sure. Others probably can answer this question. In Germany there are some changes. In the past you had to talk with I think two psychiatrists before operations for adults were allowed and people had to answer questions like "How often do you masturbate?". Which most people considered inappropriate rightfully so.

There are feminists who name several reasons to be against trans rights. They fought for women rights and seem to be scared that their progress is reversed. Their argument is for example that people with evil intentions can easier enter safe spaces of women. There are often hypothetical theories what could happen. Though I think these are rather anecdotes. I don't think something like that happens often.

There are some controversies. Men who pretend to be females who would want to get access to saunas. The impact of transitions on sports competitions. The scenario to escape military service by changing the gender. There are some German specifications to avoid such things to happen. And for me they seem to be reasonable. For example not being able to change the gender within a short period all the time.

Another aspect is probably the language we use. Especially in Germany there is a heated debate about that. The German language favors men in certain aspects and is less inclusive of women. I am not sure where I position myself on that. However if a person wants that I use a certain pronoun I will do that of course. In English I think the debate relating to language is mostly about pronouns. And also her I cannot understand the fuss about it. They say we all have an opinion on language and we have an emotional relation to that. Newspapers get cancelled if they use a certain language inclusive language. I have read an argument of linguists that gender inclusive language has become a social dialect. I am not sure whether that translates well. But people try to show by using such a language that they belong to an academic higher class to diffferentiate from the average person. I think this sounds kind of convincing. On the other hand one could show support for minorities with that language. On the other hand some minorities don't even like terms like Latin X. The language debate is probably even more complex because it is very diffferent in each language. However to use the pronoun that someone wants to be refered to is just a question of politeness and should not be politicized in my opinion.

Then there is a discussion what exactly is a woman. Which is the exact definion? I think this discussions needs many nuances something I won't be able to deliver here.

So I will end it here. I am not that emotionally involved in this debate. At least not as much as other people. But for me these takes seem to be reasonable. If you have a different opinion feel free to disagree with me.
 
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Lulzacruel

Lulzacruel

Specialist
Jun 13, 2023
336
that is because the issue has been politicized to death

to be more exact it is because the right wants to appeal to religious folks that are more into showing pride for their beliefs no matter how correct or incorrect they are

the truth is that the right preys on fears of people by claiming that this type of person is destroying or corrupting morals of society

there is also the person that accuses trans people of simply being delusional or stupid

you ever see those videos of grifters like ben shapiro "roasting SJW's" and its just some clips of very specific parts of arguments with a stupid college student that doesnt have the same of knowledge as an actual expert into human sexuality? also notice how they never interview those experts?

those videos are essentially propaganda, you take a video of somebody being mad at someone saying stupid or bigoted shit, clipped it and only film the reaction and end it with a gigachad outro, its so fucking brain-dead and i have no idea how gen z actually falls for it, and i am gen x, the very generation that tends to also fall for these videos, thank god i was born in italy otherwise i would have to listen to this chickenshit content everyday (not that italy isnt also bigoted, just that you can tune it out easier)

i pray for everyone in the usa dealing with this
 
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TooConscious

Enlightened
Sep 16, 2020
1,152
I'm too pre occupied with my existence to worry about whether someone wants to get snipped, stitched, tucked and the only people who get empathy off me are genuine humans who try and cause as least harm as possible. I used to make it more complex but this shitty life is quite simple when you boil down the nonsense. Its only complicated because we think we're inadequate against groups who all attack individuality nowadays in these ignorant times.
 
Celica45

Celica45

Pain makes life life, but too much makes it hell
Aug 22, 2023
15
Trans girls have been the sweetest people I've ever met, I don't understand all the hate they get. Maybe if they were treated like actually people they wouldn't be suicidal like most of us here. In any case I hope it gets better for them, if not hope they move to a different more accepting country.
 
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HoleintheDark

HoleintheDark

Writhing with the worms
Jul 12, 2023
34
I used to be waaay too overzealous about this specific issue, mostly because I downright craved the feeling of being right, and believing that everyone who thinks even slightly different than me is wrong, and also a horrible person who doesn't deserve the air they breathe.

But then it just got exhausting. I can't bring myself to care about what's going on anymore. I could find out tomorrow that the TERFs were right all along and I'm about to become subhuman breeding livestock, or whatever it is they're freaking out about right now. Being angry and scared all the time sucks. And I'm not about to suddenly go loving everyone either. So I just don't care anymore.
 
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lucyna

lucyna

barely active / recovering
Aug 22, 2023
53
i wish i knew, the same rhetoric is sadly spreading in europe too. if hell is real, i hope there's enough space for those people that demonize innocent people with their lies. if the christian god is real, they're the ones that have to go to hell. otherwise their god is just evil and has to be fought against. trans people are one of the most compassionate, loving people and i can't stand how under attack our community is.
 
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S

Scythe

Lost in a delusion
Sep 5, 2022
526
It's like right to die, although there are legit things to agrue about with rights to die. Whatever the moms on facebook are trying to agrue about is complete bullshit. Same thing with trans people, but it shouldn't be controversial at all. What I'm saying is most people that agrue against trans people don't understand what it is. Like you see a lot of trans people poking fun at transphobes who mess up their terms. They simple do not understand and just like the mom groups on twitter and facebook trying to shut this site down. You cannot reason with them.
 
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I

I_Am_Trashman

Member
Jun 4, 2018
39
The same reason for most "culture wars" issues getting attention in politics. To convince people to vote for politicians that will fuck them over by those politicians promising they'll protect the children from the latest scapegoat or boogie man. The first large Nazi book burning was of a sexual institute that was one of the first institutes to study trans folk in a scientific manner. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
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odradek

odradek

Mage
Sep 16, 2021
557
Because reactionaries (read: transphobes) find no end in their defiant stance that everyone else has to be, at minimum, as miserable as they are, if not moreso. When your mission is misery you have to mask it in so much utter bullshit and projection it generally muddies the waters. It's sad their hateful, willful ignorance causes so much pain. This is all built on a foundation of religious bigotry and ignorance that has gained a modern, secular coat of paint imo.

Trans people are such a staggeringly small fraction of the population, the hysteria is both manufactured and fueled by fear and hate. The bullshit business is booming now, divide and conquer is an old but reliable tactic.

Transphobia/general LGBTQ hate is as old as anti-semitism. It has just reemerged as a "new" boogeyman in modern times because of growing acceptance. Jewish people were and still are a staggeringly small fraction of the population and yet these hatreds have endured for centuries. Specifically, here's is a "new", fractional minority (Trans people) ready made for the modern day "other" role, especially with how the media landscape is right now. You don't understand them, so we can make you hate them. When times get hard it's easy to get people to turn on each other. It's naked ignorance and hate metastasizing into the monster we see today. Which is backed by politicians who will do anything to maintain their power. I've seen this movie before.

TLDR Transphobic people are reactionary bigots who just outright lie (or are willfully ignorant) to push their perverse, exclusionary worldview and they are very successful at it. And it's foundations are in religion, regardless of how secular it's talking points and spokespeople present.
 
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brokeandbroken

Elementalist
Apr 18, 2023
819
At the risk of being ostracized off this site I will bite and answer. First and foremost, this is based entirely off statistics. Everyone is different....

That said let's get into it.

Transgender individuals have an extraordinarily high suicide rate compared to the norm.

Before we get into let's look at one of the prevailing un-talked about statistics regarding transgenderism. The sky high rate of autism in FTMs, generally untreated. See here or here notably not exclusive to FTM here or here . Simply put the science is relatively clear autism increases the risk of being transgender by 3-6x.

Let's look at why that's a problem.

How about this study where it states 82% of people that are trans thought about committing suicide and 40% attempted. Here is some GAB stats Now this site in my opinion because it allows people to discuss this topic and provide some support for those considering. While on an individual basis I hope people find peace and are able to free themselves from their suffering. Let's not act like it is a good thing though societally speaking. It's horrifying. To put it in perspective this is a study on prisoners in camps during holocaust... The suicide rate was 1/4. Meaning the suicide rate amongst individuals who are trans is 15% higher then in concentration camps. This is slightly misleading as in globally significant tragic events you do see some nadiring to the suicide rate see the suicide rate for 2020 and 2021 for example... Therefore, it is paradoxically protective though this protective effect would seem to falter over the course of a period of time... Here is a study from Sweden showing after a ten year period the suicide rate is 10-20x that of their peers for those successfully transitioned. Probably more saliently here is a meta-analysis of 23 studies which seems to indicate the lack of benefit after the "honeymoon period" (5-10 years) though to be fair this is only loosely intimated. I could continue but a high comorbidity with autism (usually untreated), extremely high suicide rate, and lack of derived benefit vis a vis pre-transitioning forget about gen pop after the honeymoon period. Want more studies I am happy to provide them or provide your own I am happy to be proven wrong. I care more about the data more then anything else. In other words the reason for the debate and the concern is the number of dead bodies. While historically trans-(esque?) individuals have existed in the forms of Eunuchs, plays in drag in the middle/renaissance period, castrato's etc... The science is relatively new and it's being pushed with an end goal and desire in mind. Good science isn't one of the goals or desires...
 
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dead-yaga

dead-yaga

muddy moon
Oct 24, 2020
48
do people not understand that its all a distraction?
like its the exact same conversations that we were having about trans people in the 70s, just with more hostility. if you need proof just watch basically any tv comedy at the time, theres a mention or an episode discussing trans people.
now that they needed another big headline after people got tired of acting like homophobia is reasonable, they just moved it back to trans people. its all just so media companies can report on things that wont go against any of their biases, which is often the stuff that they actually should be reporting (especially in recent years). theyre using a debate that everyone already recognizes and knows well as their big flashy red herring
 
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borderline-feline

borderline-feline

Constantly Sleepy Catgirl
Dec 28, 2022
645
When it comes down to it, it's all about which thing can be exaggerated to the point that politicians can get people to vote. The average person is very unintelligent and will believe the things that the news feeds them without thinking critically about it. It's all about scapegoating a specific group of people to provide a common enemy. The first bathroom bill in the US came only months after Obergefell V. Hodges for an obvious reason: Republicans lost their biggest scapegoat when gay people gained the right to marriage, so they needed a new group to blame all of the world's ills on.
 
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wasted__life__23

-
Sep 9, 2023
40
I'm too pre occupied with my existence to worry about whether someone wants to get snipped, stitched, tucked and the only people who get empathy off me are genuine humans who try and cause as least harm as possible. I used to make it more complex but this shitty life is quite simple when you boil down the nonsense. Its only complicated because we think we're inadequate against groups who all attack individuality nowadays in these ignorant times.
That is exactly how I fell. Perfect explanation - thanks!
 
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Superdeterminist

Superdeterminist

Enlightened
Apr 5, 2020
1,877
It's like right to die
I think this is very accurate.

Trans people want to be the other gender. Critics respond "No! You don't have to want this! There's a better way!"

Ok, but how do you remove the dysphoria? Cue the ineffectual advice.

Suicidal people want to be dead. Critics respond: "No! You don't have to want this! There's a better way!"

Ok, where? How? Can you solve their problems? Cue the ineffectual advice.
 
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snowcloud9

snowcloud9

I’m Cold
Sep 9, 2023
250
I cannot understand the moral panic about this issue and why some people are so obsessed about it despite the fact it barely affects their daily life.
Politicians do not necessarily bring up issues that will affect daily life, only issues that are easy to address in a 30 second news clip that they can campaign on. Only issues with a simple answer. For example, California is a desert that's undergoing a huge water crisis, but if you live there you will likely have never heard of this issue before. Because there are so many pipelines, agriculture is complex, solving it is a multi-step process... Meanwhile with trans rights, it's like: Do you support it? Y/N. And people feel more connected and strong about ethical issues rather than practical ones.

Also, it's easy to campaign for since it doesn't get in the way of any major power's agenda. Trans/straight people don't make up a group of consolidated power like a corporation. But if [x] candidate wants to reduce carbon emissions by restricting the number of driver licenses given out each year? (China does this btw.) Car companies are mad and now are running ads on how [x] candidate is a terrible choice to vote for.
 
T

TooConscious

Enlightened
Sep 16, 2020
1,152
That is exactly how I fell. Perfect explanation - thanks!
Thanks that means a lot as I feel my articulation has gone shitty. Best
do people not understand that its all a distraction?
like its the exact same conversations that we were having about trans people in the 70s, just with more hostility. if you need proof just watch basically any tv comedy at the time, theres a mention or an episode discussing trans people.
now that they needed another big headline after people got tired of acting like homophobia is reasonable, they just moved it back to trans people. its all just so media companies can report on things that wont go against any of their biases, which is often the stuff that they actually should be reporting (especially in recent years). theyre using a debate that everyone already recognizes and knows well as their big flashy red herring
I don't know whether it's a joke, scam, game, but it's very disappointing when you start becoming aware and have a broader thinking range and see people aren't doing anything to change things for the better. The people you believed were 'good' are often the people causing the most harm. In 1954 according to various sources the bilderberg group held a meeting to keep the status quo.

I dont know if it's true but they had the same technology back then they do now it's only drip fed to the public.
And people who think like me are "he's bonkers' nuts' crazy' even 'psycho'.... when all I talk too much about is how humans seem to love creating suffering for each other.
Many people who preach love and peace are actually registered as level 3 'terrorists.'
 
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wasted__life__23

-
Sep 9, 2023
40
You are articulate and perceptive. Thanks for sharing your clarity.
 

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