Discussion Why is suicide considered SO tragic?

[dreadpirateroberts69]

If you really think about it, it doesn't actually make much sense why suicide is considered to be such a tragedy in our society when compared to other causes of death. We all die in the end anyway, and isn't it a positive thing to have agency in your death, rather than be "taken" against your will like how most people go? To me, these are the only explanations for this attitude that make somewhat sense:

-It is believed that many people who kill themselves are very young, acting impulsively, and "have their whole lives ahead of them". It's true that most of us here on this site are on the young side even if we are not minors. It is sad for people to think about others giving up on life so early. However, if you look at recent suicide statistics, they actually show that the rate is higher in older populations.
-The cause of suicide is generally great suffering, and it is sad for survivors to think about how much the one they lost suffered before they died (despite the fact that their death means their suffering is over).
-Historically, many, if not most, suicides are ugly and gruesome in nature (hanging, firearms, jumping, train). In this case it's the physical nature of the suicide that's hard for people to stomach, but this factor wouldn't even apply when nonviolent methods are used.

Besides these, I don't see the reason why suicide is seen as particularly tragic and traumatizing for survivors (again, compared to all other possible ways to die). The incredibly intense and widespread stigma just doesn't add up for me.

Thoughts?

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I think most people believe that everyone can be "fixed". That if the suicidal person had just gotten the right help, everything would have been ok.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

I think most people believe that everyone can be "fixed". That if the suicidal person had just gotten the right help, everything would have been ok.

True, this is a big one, though obviously a sentiment that most of us here would disagree with. To me it is not logical to believe that everyone can be "fixed". This is why it frustrates me so much that this belief is so widespread. People make assumptions about suicidal people when they've never even been suicidal themselves. I think if "normies" could somehow get their heads out of their asses and realize that it's far from true that it always gets better, then suicide would be much less stigmatized, and therefore less traumatizing for survivors

 

[whatevs]

You are not mentalizing the normies. Yes, from OUR mindset suicide can be a more "agential" way of dying and thus respectable, but for a normal person there is something deeply pathologic about a living organism that contradicts its own survival impulse and kills itself. Its very perverse from a natural point of view, and thus seen as tragic or shameful. The only mindset they understand and accept is that life is amazing and must be protected and multiplied.

 

[FuneralCry]

I think suicide is considered tragic by many people because of the pain that it causes those left behind. Those are the ones that are affected by that persons death and they have to deal with the fact that the person chose to leave. Suicide is so stigmatised in society. I do not see suicide as tragic at all, as it is an end to all suffering, once you are dead you are unable to feel or experience anything. Life is completely meaningless and is just a pointless experience we go through for the sake of it. Suicide is also a human right, we have no obligations to stay alive as we did not ask to exist.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

You are not mentalizing the normies. Yes, from OUR mindset suicide can be a more "agential" way of dying and thus respectable, but for a normal person there is something deeply pathologic about a living organism that contradicts its own survival impulse and kills itself. Its very perverse from a natural point of view, and thus seen as tragic or shameful. The only mindset they understand and accept is that life is amazing and must be protected and multiplied.

Another excellent point. To me it is pretty stupid to believe something is tragic just because it goes against the natural order of things (especially seeing as this same logic has been used to justify believing that gay relationships are wrong), but I suppose normal people do feel this way. I also lack the urge to reproduce, which the majority of people would see as "unnatural" as well

I think suicide is considered tragic by many people because of the pain that it causes those left behind. Those are the ones that are affected by that persons death and they have to deal with the fact that the person chose to leave. Suicide is so stigmatised in society. I do not see suicide as tragic at all, as it is an end to all suffering, once you are dead you are unable to feel or experience anything. Life is completely meaningless and is just a pointless experience we go through for the sake of it. Suicide is also a human right, we have no obligations to stay alive as we did not ask to exist.

Yeah, a lot of it comes down to the pain of the survivors- that is mostly why I wanted to start this thread. I truly believe that if people's attitudes on suicide shifted to give them a more balanced understanding, then the survivors would not suffer as much. They would still mourn the one they lost, but not specifically because it was suicide.

 

[back_to_oblivion]

It's natural for people to have a bias against death, we are hardwired to have that bias. I think people have a hard time understanding what would lead someone to voluntarily choose death, which is so obviously a bad thing from their point of view. So when they hear about suicide they think something must have been wrong with them because to stay away from death is our most basic, primal feeling.

 

[D&D]

People avoid what scares them. Death scares them the most. Death by suicide especially. Mostly because the fear stopes them trying to understand it for what it is - a uniquely human endeavor. While all humans can bring end to their existence, only some do and not two suicides are the same. They are those whose suicide is more akin to euthanasia due to terminal illness. In most cases they have understanding of their families and/or friends. They are however minority. Most suicides are the end result of multiple traumas, (physical and/or psychological) that are not adequately/timely addressed. Whether so called 'impulsive' or well planned. Even the impulsive suicides are at their core result of trauma(s). Nobody is born suicidal. If the reaction to life crisis is suicide - the suffering has already paved the way. People are not machines to be 'fixed.' Only robots are as good as 'functional.' People cannot be 'fixed'. The key is to be accepted as one is. Found one's place amongst fallow humans. Love and be loved in return. Not always and not necessarily romantically. When there is nowhere to go, when one is bone weary of trying ... heavenly highways are the only one still open. It is what makes it tragic.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

Unlike many other causes of death in young adults, suicide can be prevented in certain circumstances. However, this notion is often extrapolated and inflated, to the point where ALL instances of suicide are assumed to be preventable no matter what, and such doctrine is splayed across every emotionally driven media headline, tearjerker documentary, and sloppy mental health commentary as if it is incontestible.

We tend to find certain losses to be particularly tragic when foresight could have prevented them. For example, seeing a family's home get set ablaze because one hadn't found the time to install a smoke detector, or finding a dead sea animal washed up on the shore, choking on plastic, due to someone's failure to throw their rubbish away properly. Those are things we can prevent, so after the fact, it stings all the more viciously knowing that you can't go back in time and take simple steps to reverse those grim outcomes.

However, suicidality isn't so cut and dry. Many people truly believe, from the bottom of their hearts, that every single suicidal person can be saved, and help is only a phone call away. If only they'd spoken to a hotline, or reached out, the deceased would still be around. Real life often doesn't follow such oversimplifications.

The real tragedy is how many of those who passed on suffered in the days, months, and years preceding their death. It wasn't that they didn't call a hotline, or get snatched off the ledge by a police officer, it was the forlorn, solemn reality that the person was in such excruciating misery that they chose to go against all instincts, to die alone, often painfully and and in a nervous, clandestine manner in order to escape what was tormenting them in life.

Alas, the vast majority will repeat over and over again that the deceased didn't get the right help, and insist that they would've been happy had they received the mythical unicorn of help. I've only read one news article in my entire life where a close friend of a man who had recently killed himself openly admitted that he believed his friend had tried all there was to try and that the guy simply didn't enjoy life, he'd always struggled, and no one could blame him for his final act.

Of course, the unexpected factor is a shock as well. When you can't speak openly about suicidal feelings and plans, it leaves you at the behest of secrecy, so the death often feels completely unexpected, adding another layer of remorse for those left behind because they never got to say goodbye.

We are also conditioned to see the death of a younger person as more heartbreaking than that of an elderly person who got to experience every stage of life. To many, it feels premature and unnatural, the majority falsely believe there is hope around the corner for everyone, even when a good portion of adults who die by suicide have suffered years of trauma, sickness, poverty, or other adverse events and may have struggled their entire lives with no reprieve had they stuck it out. No one can predict the outcome, yet optimism flounts itself as the default.

 

[watchingthewheels]

True, this is a big one, though obviously a sentiment that most of us here would disagree with. To me it is not logical to believe that everyone can be "fixed". This is why it frustrates me so much that this belief is so widespread. People make assumptions about suicidal people when they've never even been suicidal themselves. I think if "normies" could somehow get their heads out of their asses and realize that it's far from true that it always gets better, then suicide would be much less stigmatized, and therefore less traumatizing for survivors

The first time I heard the challenge to the idea that "it gets better" just because one doesn't CTB was in a comic from the 90's called THE MAXX. There was a suicidal character who is talked down. There's some dialogue after the fact telling the reality of what happens next, that it's not all "sunshine and rainbows" just because. That really rang truer than anything I'd heard before or since from the "it gets better" crowd.

"Okay. Here's the point in the story where I throw the gun away an' I have this cathartic revelation that suicide's WRONG, that life's worth living, everything's O.K. You know, all that crap."

"Nobody buys that. That's now why you should go on."

"Why, then?"

"Because thing'sll change. YOU'LL change."

"What about right now?"

"Right now…you wait."

and

"I thought once I decided NOT to kill myself things'd be BETTER. But I still feel just as empty as ever!"

"Pain lasts, kid. It's how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this whole growing up business is just pain management."

"You get that out of a fortune cookie?"

"Very funny."

 

[Gsvko]

For me, it's knowing how much the person must have suffered, the pain they went through that led them to wiping themselves out. It's tragic because I think a lot is preventable and healable in theory, that person didn't get what they've needed at the time they've needed it. It's tragic

 

[ClownMe]

Death is just naturally sad, and suicide isn't accepted by the masses so it tends to be considered more tragic.

 

[dreadpirateroberts69]

If the reaction to life crisis is suicide - the suffering has already paved the way. People are not machines to be 'fixed.' Only robots are as good as 'functional.' People cannot be 'fixed'. The key is to be accepted as one is. Found one's place amongst fallow humans. Love and be loved in return. Not always and not necessarily romantically. When there is nowhere to go, when one is bone weary of trying ... heavenly highways are the only one still open. It is what makes it tragic.

Very true. Beautifully stated. Fear of death is something I'm still trying to understand, for myself as well as others. There is the factor of the unknown and the finality of it. I really don't like it when people assume everyone can be "fixed", I actually think human ARE a lot like machines in the sense that we too can be broken beyond repair

Unlike many other causes of death in young adults, suicide can be prevented in certain circumstances. However, this notion is often extrapolated and inflated, to the point where ALL instances of suicide are assumed to be preventable no matter what, and such doctrine is splayed across every emotionally driven media headline, tearjerker documentary, and sloppy mental health commentary as if it is incontestible.

We tend to find certain losses to be particularly tragic when foresight could have prevented them. For example, seeing a family's home get set ablaze because one hadn't found the time to install a smoke detector, or finding a dead sea animal washed up on the shore, choking on plastic, due to someone's failure to throw their rubbish away properly. Those are things we can prevent, so after the fact, it stings all the more viciously knowing that you can't go back in time and take simple steps to reverse those grim outcomes.

However, suicidality isn't so cut and dry. Many people truly believe, from the bottom of their hearts, that every single suicidal person can be saved, and help is only a phone call away. If only they'd spoken to a hotline, or reached out, the deceased would still be around. Real life often doesn't follow such oversimplifications.

The real tragedy is how many of those who passed on suffered in the days, months, and years preceding their death. It wasn't that they didn't call a hotline, or get snatched off the ledge by a police officer, it was the forlorn, solemn reality that the person was in such excruciating misery that they chose to go against all instincts, to die alone, often painfully and and in a nervous, clandestine manner in order to escape what was tormenting them in life.

Alas, the vast majority will repeat over and over again that the deceased didn't get the right help, and insist that they would've been happy had they received the mythical unicorn of help. I've only read one news article in my entire life where a close friend of a man who had recently killed himself openly admitted that he believed his friend had tried all there was to try and that the guy simply didn't enjoy life, he'd always struggled, and no one could blame him for his final act.

Of course, the unexpected factor is a shock as well. When you can't speak openly about suicidal feelings and plans, it leaves you at the behest of secrecy, so the death often feels completely unexpected, adding another layer of remorse for those left behind because they never got to say goodbye.

We are also conditioned to see the death of a younger person as more heartbreaking than that of an elderly person who got to experience every stage of life. To many, it feels premature and unnatural, the majority falsely believe there is hope around the corner for everyone, even when a good portion of adults who die by suicide have suffered years of trauma, sickness, poverty, or other adverse events and may have struggled their entire lives with no reprieve had they stuck it out. No one can predict the outcome, yet optimism flounts itself as the default.

YES, all of this. Excellent points and analogies. I really wish I could warn the people in my life before I ctb but I know it's not possible if I actually want to go through with it. I hate that it will be such a shock to them. I hate that it has to be this way. If only more people could be like the friend of the man in that news article you mentioned. When I read stories of people who go against the grain and actually accept their loved one's suicide in this way, it gives me hope that people will eventually come to that place with me. Of course there's not much we can do about it, unfortunately...

The first time I heard the challenge to the idea that "it gets better" just because one doesn't CTB was in a comic from the 90's called THE MAXX. There was a suicidal character who is talked down. There's some dialogue after the fact telling the reality of what happens next, that it's not all "sunshine and rainbows" just because. That really rang truer than anything I'd heard before or since from the "it gets better" crowd.

Wow, that's really neat. I appreciate people acknowledging that it doesn't always get better even from a more pro-life standpoint.

Really enjoying everybody's thoughtful responses, thanks guys :)

 

[Ada]

If we are characterized by our deeds, and we have free will, then we are existentially bound to other peoples choices. It means that because we identify with other people, as human beings, their choices affect the way we see ourselves.

This is why people get insulted by how other people live their lives, even when it doesn't really affect them at all. It is just part of being a social animal.

 

[Ligottian]

I also think suicide reminds people that things could get that bad for THEM, and it scares the crap out of them.

 

[Luchs]

What I think is that in their eyes life is so good that the only circustance they want to go under is if it is against their will, bevause they wouldn't voluntarily relinquish their good lives. So ctb is tragic in the sense that a person had such horrible experiences that it made them throw that posession others hold so dearly on their own accord.