Discussion why is society against suicide?

[ecmnesia]

we live in a world full of poverty, hunger, wars, violence, injustice and death. minorities are chased and killed all around the world. petty homicides are widely common and in some countries death penalties are legal, while others preach that "a good criminal is a dead one".

if you look at it, most of modern problems could be solved if people give a damn about others. if a minimum effort was put into it food and money could be better distributed, people could have easy access to basic resources such as water, medicines, vaccines and education. still nothing is done.

still, society does everything within it's reach and beyond to prevent us from having access to suicide resources.

so why? why do people are so offended by suicide? why is it so condemned? what's the difference? why are some deaths acceptable and some aren't?

in the society we live in no life matters. no one is irreplaceable. no one is precious. parents abandon their own children everyday, we don't give a shit about homeless, orphans or those that are slightly different from us. so why can't we die if we want to?

why can society kill me and I cannot do it myself? I would easily be discarded if I was a criminal, if I was part o a minority group, if I was from an oriental stigmatized country, if I was a terrorist. I know MANY people who would support strangers homicide for no reason at all and yet I'm labeled as a freak for wanting to die. Why? Why are some life's more valuable than others? Why is it ok to kill, harm, segregate, violate but not to suicide?

 

[Lmd]

we live in a world full of poverty, hunger, wars, violence, injustice and death. minorities are chased and killed all around the world. petty homicides are widely common and in some countries death penalties are legal, while others preach that "a good criminal is a dead one".

if you look at it, most of modern problems could be solved if people give a damn about others. if a minimum effort was put into it food and money could be better distributed, people could have easy access to basic resources such as water, medicines, vaccines and education. still nothing is done.

still, society does everything within it's reach and beyond to prevent us from having access to suicide resources.

You answered yourself. At least society try to prevent it. They are acomplishing it pretty bad but at least its a try. Out there are people who still try to do things right, dont kill all hope buddy

 

[Nature_is_God]

The idea of death scares people and always has. The idea that family members or friends could kill themselves whenever they want to is a terrifying and devastating thing to allow from a pro-lifer's point of view.

 

[infinitelove]

We are treated and viewed as resources. They try to beat out the idea that our lives truly belong to us so that they can call the shots and push the herd into whichever direction they want. It's all about fear, control and exploitation. How would this particular system here on this planet continue to go round if an easy peaceful access to death was made available? So many people would choose to leave. Critical thinking also means one would easily deviate from the crowd and start calling the shots for themselves because we are free beings and have the right to our freedom. There's an obvious stigma around suicide where now they use artificial tentacles to keep people in check through mainstream psychology, religion, media, law enforcement and so on so that cattle numbers remain intact and the control system on this planet continues to thrive. Critical thinking, independence and free will is significantly diminished through fear, judgement, consequences and withholding necessary information and resources. That's my view on one of the major reasons for the stigma around suicide.

 

[rt1989526]

Religion.

 

[greebo6]

we live in a world full of poverty, hunger, wars, violence, injustice and death. minorities are chased and killed all around the world. petty homicides are widely common and in some countries death penalties are legal, while others preach that "a good criminal is a dead one".

if you look at it, most of modern problems could be solved if people give a damn about others. if a minimum effort was put into it food and money could be better distributed, people could have easy access to basic resources such as water, medicines, vaccines and education. still nothing is done.

still, society does everything within it's reach and beyond to prevent us from having access to suicide resources.

so why? why do people are so offended by suicide? why is it so condemned? what's the difference? why are some deaths acceptable and some aren't?

in the society we live in no life matters. no one is irreplaceable. no one is precious. parents abandon their own children everyday, we don't give a shit about homeless, orphans or those that are slightly different from us. so why can't we die if we want to?

why can society kill me and I cannot do it myself? I would easily be discarded if I was a criminal, if I was part o a minority group, if I was from an oriental stigmatized country, if I was a terrorist. I know MANY people who would support strangers homicide for no reason at all and yet I'm labeled as a freak for wanting to die. Why? Why are some life's more valuable than others? Why is it ok to kill, harm, segregate, violate but not to suicide?

Selfishness....mis conception and closed minds.....to name just a few reasons. It won't change sadly.
Religion has not always helped by condemning suicide as sinful or whatever.

 

[Mr.Nobody]

They want us to keep wageslaving.

 

[Meditation guide]

The fact that people have to do this in such gruesome ways, painful and difficult and risky, shows just how sick
and barbaric society is. Why can't we be given what we need if it has come to such a bad place for us.
I hate society. I have no quality of life at all. I'm alive for what, to suffer day by day.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

if you look at it, most of modern problems could be solved if people give a damn about others. if a minimum effort was put into it food and money could be better distributed, people could have easy access to basic resources such as water, medicines, vaccines and education. still nothing is done.

still, society does everything within it's reach and beyond to prevent us from having access to suicide resources.

This all requires resources and energy. In some places those 2 are lacking so they genuinely cannot, and in other places they do have enough, but there is no desire. They are either unable or just unwilling.

This could possibly (or not) be the reason as to why more effort is not made: because it is easier to not acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place - hence the stigma against suicide. Stigmatization shifts the blame so that it is no longer the responsibility of the larger group; effectively sweeping the issue under the carpet. This is a hypothesis though, it is not a claim as to why everything works the way it does.

 

[LenkaX]

They want us to keep wageslaving.

But why can't we have euthanasia if we are (or some of us are) NEET because of mental illness? People who are disabled and NEET really should have an opportunity of euthanasia, because we have no value to society.

 

[Phantom]

Suicide harms your surroundings and society in general. Of course society will be against it.

 

[MariV]

suicide booths like in futurama would be great

 

[ecmnesia]

The idea of death scares people and always has. The idea that family members or friends could kill themselves whenever they want to is a terrifying and devastating thing to allow from a pro-lifer's point of view.

basically humans are selfish. I mean, death is painful for those who stays, for the ones there are gone though...

Suicide harms your surroundings and society in general. Of course society will be against it.

society is not against, at least not to the point of applying effective measures, to a lot of harmful behaviors. in theory it condemns child exploitation, violence and so on, still nothing is done on behalf of those matters, there are a few actions here and there, but those in power, instuctions and government, rarely does something really helpful to stop those things... on the other hand antisuicide strategies are implemented all around the world, everyday.

I'm expected to keep living so that other people can get some joy out of my pitiful cursed existence. Honestly, it's not an good enough excuse for me.

 

[Rubyandthemoon]

So, I haven't made it a secret that I'm not someone who is suicidal, but a griever trying to understand and this forum has been valuable. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to join a similar forum or group, but for grievers. Though I should warn that sharing your suicidal thoughts could be traumatic for them and they will be absolutely frantic to save you. If I trigger anyone here in a bad way, I would be happy if I were told.

suicide grief is complicated too. No matter what, someone has to find you. People look for someone to blame in the aftermath and it can tear a family apart. I was blamed by literally hundreds of people.

A lot of people spend a lot of time meticulously looking for what they missed and grapple with how they could have saved you. I personally wonder how my person could have left his daughter behind with no warning and I watch her not understanding why other kids have dads and she doesn't. That's why it's called "selfish," though I know there are many factors.

Then there's the "weakness" view. You're weak. You gave up. You're a coward. I disagree with that. You've had the strength to carry on as long as you did, and then you acted against the strongest human instinct — survival.

I hope that puts at least some in perspective. <3

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Because like it or not, we're more valuable to others alive than dead. To some people that's a statement of hope while to others it's an anguished cry of the hopeless.

The only way society can turn around on CTB is if overpopulation reaches a degree where it is objectively worth more to every other human being if you're dead. Unfortunately 8 or 9 billion isn't actually even close to the true carrying capacity of humans (especially if many of them still live in third world conditions). No I don't think the average person will truly become worth more as a corpse until we reach a global population of at least 25 billion but I pulled that number out of my ass just to be safe. It's definitely somewhere around there at least.

 

[Bauhaus]

Because it's against evolution.
Evolution is all about survival & procreation, hence anything that acts against these are considered "unnatural" or "abnormal".
And yet we humans also have the ability to act morally, but sadly morality is something that either has to be educated or - especially - enforced.
Our evolutionairy instincts are (much) stronger than morality, unfortunately.
So it's no wonder that we're screwing up this planet...

 

[Wayfaerer]

Because of the financial cost. Seriously that's a no-brainer...

Because it's against evolution.
Evolution is all about survival & procreation, hence anything that acts against these are considered "unnatural" or "abnormal".
And yet we humans also have the ability to act morally, but sadly morality is something that either has to be educated or - especially - enforced.
Our evolutionairy instincts are (much) stronger than morality, unfortunately.
So it's no wonder that we're screwing up this planet...

All morality is artificial and non-existent in the natural world.

 

[Bauhaus]

All morality is artificial and non-existent in the natural world.

Artificial in what way ?

 

[FuneralCry]

Suicide is better than an life of pointless suffering. There should be an suicide pill for people who are in an lot of pain and they will be able to go peacefully.

 

[Xocoyotziin]

Memes, basically, I think. How many people are innately against it as a concept and a way out until someone tells them to be?

 

[Sinkinshyp]

theres quite a few reasons. One religion. I wont go into detail on that one you guys all know enough. People are selfish and don't want to loose someone they care about. Some people want to live forever and can't see why someone would want to die. I know someone about 350lbs hooked up to an oxygen machine, spends her day sitting in a recliner and she cant walk 20 steps. Heart disease, pulmonary hypertension, and more smaller health issues and she doesn't want to die. It frightens her. I wouldn't want to live like that. Another reason someone must be "mentally ill" to want to die, they don't know fantasy from reality. So someone needs to save you from feeling suicidal. I don't think people realize the amount of planning and courage that goes into actually CTB. It isn't just oops someone pissed in my cheerios I'm gonna CTB, it's planned down to the last detail over a long period of time. I dont think people understand that.

 

[SipSop]

we live in a world full of poverty, hunger, wars, violence, injustice and death. minorities are chased and killed all around the world. petty homicides are widely common and in some countries death penalties are legal, while others preach that "a good criminal is a dead one".

if you look at it, most of modern problems could be solved if people give a damn about others. if a minimum effort was put into it food and money could be better distributed, people could have easy access to basic resources such as water, medicines, vaccines and education. still nothing is done.

still, society does everything within it's reach and beyond to prevent us from having access to suicide resources.

so why? why do people are so offended by suicide? why is it so condemned? what's the difference? why are some deaths acceptable and some aren't?

in the society we live in no life matters. no one is irreplaceable. no one is precious. parents abandon their own children everyday, we don't give a shit about homeless, orphans or those that are slightly different from us. so why can't we die if we want to?

why can society kill me and I cannot do it myself? I would easily be discarded if I was a criminal, if I was part o a minority group, if I was from an oriental stigmatized country, if I was a terrorist. I know MANY people who would support strangers homicide for no reason at all and yet I'm labeled as a freak for wanting to die. Why? Why are some life's more valuable than others? Why is it ok to kill, harm, segregate, violate but not to suicide?

So,
You pretty much amaze me.
When I first saw your picture I was enthusiastic about meeting another Johan Liebert fan, and talking with you. But you do not get him.
Also, some of your comment reminded me of Makishima Shogo with his memorable quote:

 

[ecmnesia]

So,
You pretty much amaze me.
When I first saw your picture I was enthusiastic about meeting another Johan Liebert fan, and talking with you. But you do not get him.
Also, some of your comment reminded me of Makishima Shogo with his memorable quote:
View attachment 46491

yes, I do like Johan and Makishima as well, but i have no reason to pretend that I do understand and embody their philosophy fully or even partially, I mean, I'm a fan and all, I agree with lots of thing both of them, and other antagonists, defends, still that does not mean I'm the same as them, we which have our own backgrounds and beliefs. no reason to say otherwise.

so yeah, i dont really get what you are saying, dont know why i amaze you but if you may enlight me I'd appreciate.

 

[SipSop]

yes, I do like Johan and Makishima as well, but i have no reason to pretend that I do understand and embody their philosophy fully or even partially, I mean, I'm a fan and all, I agree with lots of thing both of them, and other antagonists, defends, still that does not mean I'm the same as them, we which have our own backgrounds and beliefs. no reason to say otherwise.

so yeah, i dont really get what you are saying, dont know why i amaze you but if you may enlight me I'd appreciate.

I will.
So I must begin telling that I have nothing against you personally.



I am more amazed that you have his defining quote at your profile.
I cannot be like him. I am not a psycopath, do not have his brain or looks. And he is fictional. But the ideas behind it are valuable. And true.
You were complaining about different inequalities of life when you have Johan's quote at your profile.
What he meant by: "the only thing we are equal as humans is death"?
It means that true equality can exist only in death. Only dead people are equal.
But people who are alive?
Never.
Some people are more beautiful, some are smarter, some are stronger, some are richer. And this thing won't go away ever no matter how much you try.
Life is unfair. And you can try to improve what you have, given you will never be as good as a natural, or just suck it up like the majority of living people and find stupid excuses why you didn't got what you wanted. Like: god wanted this, or the universe wanted this ,when in fact, you were just weaker and slower than the other guy who did got what you wanted.

Johan mocked Tenma and his stupid life philosophy.

Because Johan had all the power. He seen the world from above. And played with it like a god. Again, is fiction, but well written one. Tenma brought back Johan because he believed "all lives are equal", but this is a hypocrisy wich Johan knew already. And Tenma showed his hypocrisy by attempting to kill Johan after that. Showing that Tenma was wrong.

Some people are just born better than others.
And this is fact. Only a hypocrite can deny this.
But we still have a chance, as we can still be equal in death.

 

[ecmnesia]

I will.
So I must begin telling that I have nothing against you personally.

View attachment 46492

I am more amazed that you have his defining quote at your profile.
I cannot be like him. I am not a psycopath, do not have his brain or looks. And he is fictional. But the ideas behind it are valuable. And true.
You were complaining about different inequalities of life when you have Johan's quote at your profile.
What he meant by: "the only thing we are equal as humans is death"?
It means that true equality can exist only in death. Only dead people are equal.
But people who are alive?
Never.
Some people are more beautiful, some are smarter, some are stronger, some are richer. And this thing won't go away ever no matter how much you try.
Life is unfair. And you can try to improve what you have, given you will never be as good as a natural, or just suck it up like the majority of living people and find stupid excuses why you didn't got what you wanted. Like: god wanted this, or the universe wanted this ,when in fact, you were just weaker and slower than the other guy who did got what you wanted.

Johan mocked Tenma and his stupid life philosophy.
View attachment 46493
Because Johan had all the power. He seen the world from above. And played with it like a god. Again, is fiction, but well written one. Tenma brought back Johan because he believed "all lives are equal", but this is a hypocrisy wich Johan knew already. And Tenma showed his hypocrisy by attempting to kill Johan after that. Showing that Tenma was wrong.

Some people are just born better than others.
And this is fact. Only a hypocrite can deny this.
But we still have a chance, as we can still be equal in death.

i see, i can understand that some people are born better than others, genetically or socially speaking, and yes, we can only be equals when we cease to exist. It's utopic to believe that somehow true equality can be reached. still, even if we can never be equals, I do believe basic human rights should be avaiable for everyone, maybe that's a contradiction. I don't think human rights are about making everyone the same, but guaranteeing that within their limitations people can flourish according to their habilities. It's not because we are inevitabily different that we should suffer, i dont think tha justifies the way society works.

death is inevitable and it levels us, that does not implies that we should all suffer.

I simply have this quote at my profile because i like it. I get your point and all, but that are many ways to explore things we see and hear according to our perceptions of it. That's basically what we do with everything, people get the meanings that are more convient and suitable for them.

 

[SipSop]

i see, i can understand that some people are born better than others, genetically or socially speaking, and yes, we can only be equals when we cease to exist. It's utopic to believe that somehow true equality can be reached. still, even if we can never be equals, I do believe basic human rights should be avaiable for everyone, maybe that's a contradiction. I don't think human rights are about making everyone the same, but guaranteeing that within their limitations people can flourish according to their habilities. It's not because we are inevitabily different that we should suffer, i dont think tha justifies the way society works.

death is inevitable and it levels us, that does not implies that we should all suffer.

I simply have this quote at my profile because i like it. I get your point and all, but that are many ways to explore things we see and hear according to our perceptions of it. That's basically what we do with everything, people get the meanings that are more convient and suitable for them.

Yeah, I agree.
About your first point on society. Society, especially in developed countries, is pro-life. Many ways in wich it wants to make your life easier to live and to give you more chances to have a good life.
And that is good for all of us.

I also agree about the subjectivity of our perceptions and conclusions. But there is also a objective truth, wich cannot be denied. I do believe that I got right the meaning his quote based on the series and his actions.

Great comment you had.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Interesting, the way you put it.

Should MLJ have fought for equality, or should he have committed suicide because of inequality?

The truth is this:
The world is full of silly traditions, beliefs and dogma of previous generations.
If you think it should change, try to change it.

 

[ecmnesia]

Yeah, I agree.
About your first point on society. Society, especially in developed countries, is pro-life. Many ways in wich it wants to make your life easier to live and to give you more chances to have a good life.
And that is good for all of us.

I also agree about the subjectivity of our perceptions and conclusions. But there is also a objective truth, wich cannot be denied. I do believe that I got right the meaning his quote based on the series and his actions.

Great comment you had.

Yes, i also believe you got the quote right, no irony behind it.

It is unquestionable that there must be an objective truth to every question, the thing is, humans are not always, and dare i say almost never, suitable to get those answers. That's easier done when applied in science, according to the scientific method and all, but when it comes to different types of questions, subjectivity seems to be unavoidable.

Interesting, the way you put it.

Should MLJ have fought for equality, or should he have committed suicide because of inequality?

The truth is this:
The world is full of silly traditions, beliefs and dogma of previous generations.
If you think it should change, try to change it.

Considering his personality it's seems unreal that he'd fight for equality.

To be honest, even though I said all those things, I myself don't do it. It takes energy, dedication, persistance and streghnt to do so, which i don't posses (wish I was different, but yes, whatever). When I look back to the things I've done and tried to change it all seems like a waste of time and dead end, it's not that people can't change, and can't never get better. Society, traditions, beliefs, they keep on changing, forward or backwards, but it takes time and it's definetly not an easy process. Most humans, including me, don't have the guts to go for it.

 

[Heart Shards]

Because. . . Mah Feelings!!

 

[EssenceFocus]

The reason is old belief systems.
Probably they mean it well, but they don't know how somebody exactly feels when he is in this situation.
Most parents will try to save their children, that is a natural reaction.

I remember some days ago, there was someone in General Chat who said, he wanted to jump from a bridge or thought about that. On the bridge he saw a person climbing over the fence and he shouted "Don't do it" ( or something like this). So, despite he wants to commit suicide by himself, he still shouted that. -->It's natural