Why do people have children in this world

[Death is beautiful]

Why the hell is this considered the norm? Why is murder punishable by law, but the birth of children into this world so that they suffer for decades is considered absolutely normal? Why the government doesn't care about it. I would be glad not to be born into this world ever! If humans stop reproducing, our species will simply die out, which means the end of suffering

 

[Snake of Eden]

Why is murder punishable by law, but the birth of children into this world so that they suffer for decades is considered absolutely normal?

come on now mate. You really cant compare the two. Having children is the most natural thing to do. Just because we were unlucky with the accident of our birth, that doesnt equate murder with birthing. I say that while I agree that people who bring children into this world are taking a huge risk with the suffering they will inflict on the new generation. It takes naivety and blind optimism for someone to think it is a good idea to make babies

 

[Darkmoon Queen]

People have children because their lives are just fine and they can't envisage life being anything else.

I've never felt the maternal pull but I wouldn't birth a child and risk them having my experience. I couldn't bear that.

 

[TheHatedOne]

Why the hell is this considered the norm? Why is murder punishable by law, but the birth of children into this world so that they suffer for decades is considered absolutely normal? Why the government doesn't care about it. I would be glad not to be born into this world ever! If humans stop reproducing, our species will simply die out, which means the end of suffering

Because "muh genes" and other selfish reasons. Antinatalism is the most logical and compassionate philosophy and indeed the solution to every problem.

Why would the government care? Government just wants more and more slaves to feed into this cruel system. It's a win-win situation for both parts, but not for the victim that was brought into this pointless, prison like existence.

 

[Deleted member 8975]

Murder punishable by law...whatttttt.

Okay people have babies for all sorts of reasons...or not.

If I were gonna have kids...it would be because I'd love having them around. I'd try being the parent my parents never could have been :/ And to provide a nice happy life for them.

I wish that I could.

 

[mousebot]

Its a dice roll. The children may be unhappy but many live long fulfilling lives and most have a little bit of both. Our goal as a species is to survive, and the only option to replace bearing children in that regard is for the species to become immortal as a whole which would be hell.

You have the option to kill yourself if your life turns out fucked, but not being born would mean never experiencing life in the first place, which many people actually do want to exist

Because "muh genes" and other selfish reasons. Antinatalism is the most logical and compassionate philosophy and indeed the solution to every problem.

Why would the government care? Government just wants more and more slaves to feed into this cruel system. It's a win-win situation for both parts, but not for the victim that was brought into this pointless, prison like existence.

Not everyones existence is pointless or prison like tho. The reason antinatalism isnt big is not because the government wants more slaves (theyre trying to get that technologically), its because most people actually do want existence to some degree.

I wouldnt say its the most logical either at all, its very emotionally driven by ones own experience. The goal of humanity as a whole is not driven by "good" vs "bad" or whether or not people suffer. Suffering is a biproduct of the drive to survive, like all our emotions, evolved from fear and feeling safe in the early days. The actual goal for humanity is to survive - and whether you want to remove yourself from it all or not is your choice.

 

[TheHatedOne]

Not everyones existence is pointless or prison like tho. The reason antinatalism isnt big is not because the government wants more slaves (theyre trying to get that technologically), its because most people actually do want existence to some degree.

I wouldnt say its the most logical either at all, its very emotionally driven by ones own experience. The goal of humanity as a whole is not driven by "good" vs "bad" or whether or not people suffer. Suffering is a biproduct of the drive to survive, like all our emotions, evolved from fear and feeling safe in the early days. The actual goal for humanity is to survive - and whether you want to remove yourself from it all or not is your choice.

Just because some don't see it as pointless or as a prison doesn't mean that everyone is like that.

Not everyone wants existence I mean you're replying to me on a site where people don't want to exist anymore. Those who want existence fine, but those who don't should be guaranteed the easiest exit aka euthanasia and not be held in cages like animals.

As I said just because some are actually grateful to be born doesn't mean everyone does. In fact most people hate that they were born, some don't display that directly but deep down inside they feel it.

Our goal as a species is to survive

And then what? Go to more pointless wars and fuck up the planet even more? ;)

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

come on now mate. You really cant compare the two. Having children is the most natural thing to do.

Murder is as natural as having kids, if not more. This is literally a logical fallacy, btw.

 

[mousebot]

Just because some don't see it as pointless or as a prison doesn't mean that everyone is like that.

Not everyone wants existence I mean you're replying to me on a site where people don't want to exist anymore. Those who want existence fine, but those who don't should be guaranteed the easiest exit aka euthanasia and not be held in cages like animals.

As I said just because some are actually grateful to be born doesn't mean everyone does. In fact most people hate that they were born, some don't display that directly but deep down inside they feel it.


And then what? Go to more pointless wars and fuck up the planet even more? ;)

What you describe now is pro choice suicide not antinatalism. Antinatalism is that no one should be born because some suffer. I agree that those who wish to die should be granted euthanasia, thats what i want, the ability to be able to not live. But in such a world antinatalism would be unnecessary, as if you are born and like it you can stay but if you dont you can leave the world. Simple

I would say most experience both pain and joy but wouldnt want all existence to cease. The current depression epidemic is more because of modern society and the emptiness and detachment it gives everyone rather than a natural "life bad" (although many want to ctb for reasons entirely besides this including myself).

Murder is as natural as having kids, if not more. This is literally a logical fallacy, btw.

Both are natural, but id say having kids is more natural in kind of a "egg before the chicken" way, as you cant have any death without birth at all (until we achieve technological immortality or some shit).

i do think people need to realize their violent side is the "natural" one. I would never want to live in a society without murder, as it could only come around when humanity is eliminated, and we go into some sort of robotic false utopia. Where everyone is sedated and reprogrammed by man instead of nature. Sounds more like hell to me than the current world. Just endless emptiness.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Murder is as natural as having kids, if not more. This is literally a logical fallacy, btw.

How is that?

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

How is that?

Yes.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Yes.

I didnt ask a yes or no question. How is murder as natural as making babies? How is it logical to compare the reproductive drive with the action of annihilating another human being?

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

How is murder as natural as making babies? How is it logical to compare the reproductive drive with the action of annihilating another human being?

Because all of our ancestors (human or not) have been killing a lot, bro. People still do it in modern societies due to ego battles, money, drugs, whatever.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Because all of our ancestors (human or not) have been killing a lot, bro. People still do it in modern societies due to ego battles, money, drugs, whatever.

There is nothing more artificial taking the action of ending a life. I fail to see how making babies is as natural as murdering someone and calling that lack of comparison a logical fallacy

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

There is nothing more artificial taking the action of ending a life. I fail to see how making babies is as natural as murdering someone and calling that lack of comparison a logical fallacy

Fix ur English.

 

[mousebot]

There is nothing more artificial taking the action of ending a life. I fail to see how making babies is as natural as murdering someone and calling that lack of comparison a logical fallacy

regardless of how one sees murder its anything but "artificial"

 

[Snake of Eden]

Fix ur English.

So rude. English isnt my first language FYI. What a bigoted thing to say.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

English isnt my first language FYI.

Sry, didn't know. Literally crying rn.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Sry, didn't know. Literally crying rn.

Like you give a shit. Dickhead

 

[Makko]

The problem isn't children in general but the modern trend of having just about one wimpy kid that expects a lot and has a lot of expectations placed on it only to disappoint and be disappointed by everything. Much more fun and dramatic are the old ways when you made a whole bunch of kids and as they grow up they kill each other for inheritance until only the fittest remains. That's proper reproduction

 

[TheHatedOne]

What you describe now is pro choice suicide not antinatalism. Antinatalism is that no one should be born because some suffer. I agree that those who wish to die should be granted euthanasia, thats what i want, the ability to be able to not live. But in such a world antinatalism would be unnecessary, as if you are born and like it you can stay but if you dont you can leave the world. Simple

I would say most experience both pain and joy but wouldnt want all existence to cease. The current depression epidemic is more because of modern society and the emptiness and detachment it gives everyone rather than a natural "life bad" (although many want to ctb for reasons entirely besides this including myself).

Both are natural, but id say having kids is more natural in kind of a "egg before the chicken" way, as you cant have any death without birth at all (until we achieve technological immortality or some shit).

i do think people need to realize their violent side is the "natural" one. I would never want to live in a society without murder, as it could only come around when humanity is eliminated, and we go into some sort of robotic false utopia. Where everyone is sedated and reprogrammed by man instead of nature. Sounds more like hell to me than the current world. Just endless emptiness.

Pro choice and antinatalism go hand in hand. Also wrong, it's not that SOME suffer. EVERY SINGLE LIVING BEING suffers at one point even though some have it better than others.

Also a point I forgot to mention in my first reply to you is that we got to the conclusion that some have happy, fulfilling lives that makes them wanna live and some who are the opposite. But isn't this unfairness enough reason to not procreate? You really want to bring let's say 5 beings into this world just for 1 to be possibly happy? Idk, I wouldn't take that gamble.

Also in a world where euthanasia would be available why would antinatalism be useless? Just so that someone who's born into this world do a lot of effort just to make themselves go back from where they came from?

Ah yes, it's only the modern times, because medieval times probably were some utopia shit. /s


Edit: how about adoption tho? Why take the gamble and bring more people into this world for a slight chance of turning out happy when you can take in your care someone who already exists and who'd be happy receiving love, warmth and care. Or maybe, something it's not the same something like with a biological child something something?

 

[mousebot]

Pro choice and antinatalism go hand in hand. Also wrong, it's not that SOME suffer. EVERY SINGLE LIVING BEING suffers at one point even though some have it better than others.

Also a point I forgot to mention in my first reply to you is that we got to the conclusion that some have happy, fulfilling lives that makes them wanna live and some who are the opposite. But isn't this unfairness enough reason to not procreate? You really want to bring let's say 5 beings into this world just for 1 to be possibly happy? Idk, I wouldn't take that gamble.

Also in a world where euthanasia would be available why would antinatalism be useless? Just so that someone who's born into this world do a lot of effort just to make themselves go back from where they came from?

Ah yes, it's only the modern times, because medieval times probably were some utopia shit. /s


Edit: how about adoption tho? Why take the gamble and bring more people into this world for a slight chance of turning out happy when you can take in your care someone who already exists and who'd be happy receiving love, warmth and care. Or maybe, something it's not the same something like with a biological child something something?

I think the difference here is that im thinking of it in the bigger picture. Antinatalism would essentially lead to extinction - it goes more in hand with promortalism than pro choice suicide. Further more it is the complete opposite of pro choice suicide.

To my understanding,

Antinatalism = everyone suffers so we must prevent all of this suffering by ending our species via ceasing to reproduce. Eliminating humanity over time to prevent any pain

Pro choice suicide = people do suffer and some suffer incredibly more than others so there should be the choice to opt out.

Also yes everyone suffers, but most people also have great experiences that they believe make it "worth" it. In general id say most people live to experience, to exist, to be conscious, and that is more important to them over their suffering. Many people live miserably but still dont want to kill themselves simply because of their survival instinct, which is the only objective goal of humans, not to end pain

It is an emotional perception to believe that because pain is bad everything should end - emotional perspectives are natural and i dont mean to shame them, but imo they shouldnt lead the world.

Personally looking out and seeing all the people in the world having fun and experiencing things while i cant makes me feel better about the world on a cosmic scale, as then i know how insignificant my pain really is and there is always something else going on.

I do believe more people should be adopting tho - for one we're overpopulated we can handle it, and for two all the kids in orphanages already exist

 

[TheHatedOne]

I think the difference here is that im thinking of it in the bigger picture. Antinatalism would essentially lead to extinction - it goes more in hand with promortalism than pro choice suicide. Further more it is the complete opposite of pro choice suicide.

To my understanding,

Antinatalism = everyone suffers so we must prevent all of this suffering by ending our species via ceasing to reproduce. Eliminating humanity over time to prevent any pain

Pro choice suicide = people do suffer and some suffer incredibly more than others so there should be the choice to opt out.

Also yes everyone suffers, but most people also have great experiences that they believe make it "worth" it. In general id say most people live to experience, to exist, to be conscious, and that is more important to them over their suffering. Many people live miserably but still dont want to kill themselves simply because of their survival instinct, which is the only objective goal of humans, not to end pain

It is an emotional perception to believe that because pain is bad everything should end - emotional perspectives are natural and i dont mean to shame them, but imo they shouldnt lead the world.

Personally looking out and seeing all the people in the world having fun and experiencing things while i cant makes me feel better about the world on a cosmic scale, as then i know how insignificant my pain really is and there is always something else going on.

I do believe more people should be adopting tho - for one we're overpopulated we can handle it, and for two all the kids in orphanages already exist

So what if it does lead to extinction? Why do people like to make such a fuss over extinction. We don't HAVE to exist. We weren't here before and we will go extinct anyway at one point in time whether we like it or not. We only did harm during our existence to the planet and to the animals so in my view we should go extinct asap.

And what kind of experiences do they have that make it worth it? What makes life worth it? What would those people do without those experiences that you have to work for mostly? (Assuming that in "experiences" we think the same, thats why I asked in the first place). The following sentences could be resumed as: many people are slaves to their instincts and DNA. There's also other sources like media and religion that further brainwashes people.

It's not emotional, I mean would you call someone that could be as well a SS member who failed at everything in life and suffers non stop and nothing brings them pleasure emotional because they want to end their life? No, it's a logical reason in their situation. Sure, you may not want to end your life to each their own but objectively pain and suffering exist and these are more plenty, lasting and intense than happiness and pleasure.

Those people may have their demons to deal with which could be much worse than the "fun" you see them experiencing, which could be as well a temporary distraction from their suffering. I mean, I have thought about it, if life is indeed worth it then why many people take pills just to feel better and why do we have to always consume media or whatever, or just do something in order to pass time? Because it's enjoyable, right?

 

[existtosuffer]

For some people, it's life changing & beautiful. I'm not against anyone deciding to have kids. I wouldn't have them because of the mental illness I've inherited. Wouldn't want to pass it on & I much prefer chilling with Cats. I do think people should have a background check before deciding to have kids though. Far too much abuse & illnesses that get passed down.

 

[mousebot]

So what if it does lead to extinction? Why do people like to make such a fuss over extinction. We don't HAVE to exist. We weren't here before and we will go extinct anyway at one point in time whether we like it or not. We only did harm during our existence to the planet and to the animals so in my view we should go extinct asap.

And what kind of experiences do they have that make it worth it? What makes life worth it? What would those people do without those experiences that you have to work for mostly? (Assuming that in "experiences" we think the same, thats why I asked in the first place). The following sentences could be resumed as: many people are slaves to their instincts and DNA. There's also other sources like media and religion that further brainwashes people.

It's not emotional, I mean would you call someone that could be as well a SS member who failed at everything in life and suffers non stop and nothing brings them pleasure emotional because they want to end their life? No, it's a logical reason in their situation. Sure, you may not want to end your life to each their own but objectively pain and suffering exist and these are more plenty, lasting and intense than happiness and pleasure.

Those people may have their demons to deal with which could be much worse than the "fun" you see them experiencing, which could be as well a temporary distraction from their suffering. I mean, I have thought about it, if life is indeed worth it then why many people take pills just to feel better and why do we have to always consume media or whatever, or just do something in order to pass time? Because it's enjoyable, right?

Wanting to die =/= wanting everyone to die.

Also, youre right, there is no point to existence objectively as far as we know - and we'd probably never know. So why not end the universe? most of what you said in the beginning taps into absurdism. "Why not end the universe, it wont matter objectively" is true, but so is "why not create more life it wont matter objectively". Non of it matters in the end, there is no grand cosmic meaning to our knowledge, so many just stick along for the ride.

If you dont want other people to decide you cant ctb because of their own outlook on life, why should you be able to decide all people who want to live should stop existing because of your own outlook on life?

Also, we dont have to consume media at all. most of it is random shit pumped out and imo its more to keep people sedated if anything. Usually to show them propaganda with a side of psychological manipulation. If we lived more connected to nature many would be more at peace than when they live to consoomm

 

[FuneralCry]

Many people believe they are doing a good thing by bringing children into the world. These people are very delusional. Non existence is the complete absence of suffering. Existence is completely unnecessary. Of course these people are selfish, they are doing what is best for themselves rather than the child. I do believe that people will never stop procreating, but the one thing that society needs to do is allow us a right to die. Since we were brought into this existence without choice, meaning we have no obligations to stay alive, we deserve an peaceful exit at a time of our own choosing.

 

[demuic]

If you dont want other people to decide you cant ctb because of their own outlook on life, why should you be able to decide all people who want to live should stop existing because of your own outlook on life?

No one here is capable of causing all people to stop existing, but the masses and those who run this planet are constantly making it as difficult as possible for anyone to end their lives. That's the difference.

As long as there is conscious existence, there is suffering, and no conscious existence means no suffering. That is a fact.

Those people may have their demons to deal with which could be much worse than the "fun" you see them experiencing, which could be as well a temporary distraction from their suffering. I mean, I have thought about it, if life is indeed worth it then why many people take pills just to feel better and why do we have to always consume media or whatever, or just do something in order to pass time? Because it's enjoyable, right?

That is what I have always thought. Life is supposedly so great and wonderful and any problem can be overcome, yet at the same time people must be forcibly stopped from committing suicide and constantly brainwashed with the notion that suicide should never be considered lest they fall to the temptation to the "forbidden fruit". People create millions of distractions and inconsequential and must constantly repeat the mantra that everything is worth it - or else they'll forget, it seems.

 

[TheHatedOne]

Wanting to die =/= wanting everyone to die.

Also, youre right, there is no point to existence objectively as far as we know - and we'd probably never know. So why not end the universe? most of what you said in the beginning taps into absurdism. "Why not end the universe, it wont matter objectively" is true, but so is "why not create more life it wont matter objectively". Non of it matters in the end, there is no grand cosmic meaning to our knowledge, so many just stick along for the ride.

If you dont want other people to decide you cant ctb because of their own outlook on life, why should you be able to decide all people who want to live should stop existing because of your own outlook on life?

Also, we dont have to consume media at all. most of it is random shit pumped out and imo its more to keep people sedated if anything. Usually to show them propaganda with a side of psychological manipulation. If we lived more connected to nature many would be more at peace than when they live to consoomm

When did I say that everyone should stop existing because of my antinatalism???

I don't think you even understand what antinatalism is.

Antinatalism doesn't want everyone to die, antinatalism just says that procreating is inherently immoral which is correct. Antinatalism has nothing to do with death. There are many antinatalists who have it well in life and don't want to kill themselves. Among those people is also my boyfriend. He lives a pretty good life without too much suffering but is still an antinatalist.

"why not create more life it wont matter objectively"- it also goes like this : ''why create more life it wont matter objectively''. what would be achieved if more life is created? We are small, insignificant fly-like things to this universe.

''its more to keep people sedated if anything''- there is it. why keep 'em sedated though?

''If we lived more connected to nature many would be more at peace''- nature is horrible, when I spent time in nature, for example at a lake i'd always see seagulls picking up fish from the water to eat. A life where species have to eat each other in order to survive is not worth it.

 

[bed]

every species only goal is to procreate to pass on their genes. Without that instinct to do so, a species would die off quickly. I don't think it's much deeper than that really. You may give yourself reasoning as to why you want a child but deep down this is what persuades you to want/have one. Humans are no different than an insect in this regard.

 

[mousebot]

When did I say that everyone should stop existing because of my antinatalism???

I don't think you even understand what antinatalism is.

Antinatalism doesn't want everyone to die, antinatalism just says that procreating is inherently immoral which is correct. Antinatalism has nothing to do with death

Antinatalism approved by the government as you suggested with your "government just wants more slaves" comment, in the long run, would lead to extinction. But i wasnt talking about antinatalism exactly with my point about existence - i said that because you had said things would be better if nothing existed. "We only did harm during our existence to the planet and to the animals so in my view we should go extinct asap." for example.

"why not create more life it wont matter objectively"- it also goes like this : ''why create more life it wont matter objectively''. what would be achieved if more life is created? We are small, insignificant fly-like things to this universe.

thats exactly what i said. The points "why create more life it wont matter objectively" and "why not create life it wont matter objectively" are both one and the same as at their core they just point out that nothing matters in the grand scale. Exactly what i said with "Also, youre right, there is no point to existence objectively as far as we know - and we'd probably never know. So why not end the universe? None of it matters in the end, there is no grand cosmic meaning to our knowledge, so many just stick along for the ride."

''If we lived more connected to nature many would be more at peace''- nature is horrible, when I spent time in nature, for example at a lake i'd always see seagulls picking up fish from the water to eat. A life where species have to eat each other in order to survive is not worth it.

Ah well i guess there we just have to agree to disagree. Its entirely perception at that point, not correct vs incorrect. Some people think more by human morals and others by what is natural. Im the latter. I have no problem with species needing to kill each other to survive, its the cycle of life. I dont have the need to project things onto it.