Discussion Why are there so few antinatalists?

[AbusedInnocent]

Seems like most people here are antinatalist so I wanted to talk about it.

I try not to underestimate the stupidity of the average person yet I'm still surprised at how few people are antinatalist, some even actively make fun of us even though we harm nobody, although I should have expected that as debates on morality usually get pretty heated, maybe not as much as debates on politics and religion though.

Even some absurdists/existential nihilists accept procreation even though life has no objective meaning, why force someone to face the absurdity of existence when the nonexistent don't even desire meaning for anything?

It really shows how none of us see the world how it really is, suicidality and depression aren't exactly traits that evolution favors so it's obvious that we would evolve to assign lower importance to the bad in life even if it makes us completely delusional, you don't need to see the world how it really is to survive and procreate.
We humans pride ourselves in having unique cognitive abilities that no other animal has yet our mind is so limited, we still can't agree on even the most basic issues.

Would like to hear your thoughts on antinatalism/why you became antinatalist if you are one.

BTW this is my first post hope you don't mind me discussing philosophy.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Very few people are antinatalists because many people enjoy life to the point where they don't have the ability to think about the suffering that people like us here can go through. They also assume that their kids will be the one to come out on top and win the competition against the rest of the population. People assume that their kids will have good lives because the risk of the contrary is so low to where they don't bother about it

 

[Darkover]

I know that antinatalists are obviously in the minority, but I always get shocked when I think about it that antinatalists aren't 50% of the world population at the very least.

Just think about the average shit that most people go through. Living paycheck to paycheck, working a terrible job they hate. Then on top of that you have to deal with things that are somewhat inevitable; such as mental illnesses, sicknesses, illnesses, bullying, abuse, death of loved ones, and all the other bullshit that you want to avoid. It just shocks me because it's common for people to complain about a hurdle of issues. So in my head, I'm thinking why aren't you an antinatalist?

 

[AbusedInnocent]

Very few people are antinatalists because many people enjoy life to the point where they don't have the ability to think about the suffering that people like us here can go through. They also assume that their kids will be the one to come out on top and win the competition against the rest of the population. People assume that their kids will have good lives because the risk of the contrary is so low to where they don't bother about it

Thanks for the reply.

I just thought of another reason, Ideas are usually inherited, most people keep the same religious beliefs as their parents.

Everyone's parents are natalists since antinatalists don't have kids so the only way the idea can spread is through changing other people's minds, and changing someone's mind about something they've believed since childhood is extremely hard, as is evident with religious debates.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I'm not totally antinatalist (procreating is also pro-choice and it's a natural instinct for any living creatures) but In my case I never really had the intention to procreate / have children. I dreaded mostly the fact that a potential child won't have it as good as I had it and what would happen if I could not "guarantee" a good life for that child.

From today's pov not to procreate was the best decision I ever made in my life.

 

[ForgottenAgain]

I think one of the reasons may be that, even if someone is miserable, they can still see that life itself isn't horrible, they can still see the positive things. I think it takes someone that has never experienced any happiness in their life to truly be an antinatalist.

I feel miserable but I look back and I had a happy childhood and that's where my most loving memories are. I also think I have the qualities of being a good parent and the financial stability and patience to be one. I think caring for someone or something can be very fulfilling, it's how I feel about my pets, it's rewarding to see them grow and discover their personalities. I imagine with a child it must be even more fulfilling as they develop speech and you can discover their hopes and dreams and help them achieve what they desire.

 

[sserafim]

The reason why there are so few antinatalists is because sex feels good and humans are hardwired to have it. People, especially men, have high sex drives. Our biological purpose is to survive and reproduce, otherwise, we would have died out already. Humans have only made it this far because we are hardwired to reproduce. The purpose of life for all living beings is to survive, reproduce (aka pass your genes on to the next generation) then die. Therefore, the chain of life stays continuous. All organisms want to continue this chain of life for some reason. They all want (or rather have an urge) to reproduce. I don't know why. Despite how intellectual and advanced we think we are, we still can't control our instincts, urges or desires. We're still slaves to our desires at the end of the day. We're only biological beings. It's hard to defy our programming and go against the grain.

The other reason why antinatalism isn't widely accepted is because society expects you to have children. There's societal and familial pressure to have children. Having children is seen as a hallmark of success. Therefore, for those who want to follow society's playbook on how to make it, they will naturally have kids to show off how accomplished and successful they are. This makes them look better in other people's eyes, and improves their perception and reputation. They have now made it according to society. They have met all of society's expectations. This is their catchphrase: "Look at me, I'm so cool. I created my own little family! I made some mini-me's!" This is peak narcissism right here. They're narcissistic to the core. They're bad to the bone

 

[Morte]

I think it takes someone that has never experienced any happiness in their life to truly be an antinatalist.

No, it just requires awareness and some empathy. Even if my life turned around I would still be antinatalist because the world is still garbage and life is full of suffering. The unborn dont need to be born. Besides, millions of orphaned children out there, so why create more?

 

[sserafim]

No, it just requires awareness and some empathy. Even if my life turned around I would still be antinatalist because the world is still garbage and life is full of suffering. The unborn dont need to be born. Besides, millions of orphaned children out there, so why create more?

They create their own children due to narcissism, and because they want mini-me's. They want to pass down their DNA because they think it's worthy and important enough to be passed down. They couldn't care less about someone else's child or the millions of orphaned children. They just want their own biological child. They want to have something (or rather, someone) to call their own

 

[ForgottenAgain]

No, it just requires awareness and some empathy. Even if my life turned around I would still be antinatalist because the world is still garbage and life is full of suffering. The unborn dont need to be born. Besides, millions of orphaned children out there, so why create more?

Thinking that the world is garbage and full of suffering is a matter of perspective, it's not empirical evidence.
Adopting is great as well, it's one of the things I've thought about for years.

 

[Morte]

Thinking that the world is garbage and full of suffering is a matter of perspective, it's not empirical evidence.

You are a product of the world and you are here depressed , wanting to die. This is already empirical evidence.
Just because most people aren't depressed doesn't mean they don't suffer most of their lives or that the world is anything but trash.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think people can go a bit rose tinted vision when they're in love. In one of my friend's cases, they loved their partner so much. They loved the thought of having a part of them replicated in a child. I'd hope that most parents at least have good intentions that their child will be loved and grow up happy.

I think at one point, it would have been possible for me to have become a Mum. I haven't always been against the idea. I think if I'd found someone I was in love with that much and they wanted children, things may have gone that route.

It was probably my late twenties that I became increasingly antinatilist. For me especially. I couldn't bear the thought of my child feeling like I've felt in life and knowing that I couldn't help them. I felt like- even if there was a 0.00001% chance of them ending up like me, it wouldn't be fair to risk that- and there's pretty much a 50% chance!

Plus, I think upbringing is so important. I wouldn't give the poor thing a chance! I'm such a pessimist. So full of self doubt. I dread to think what neurosis my child would end up with. I don't think it's enough to just love it in this world. I think people need to somehow be prepared to survive in this world and I'd have no clue how to equip them to do that. As much as I'm so grateful to my Grandma- who did the bulk of my upbringing after my Mum died, I don't feel like I was well suited to this world from the start. I received a Victorian upbribging in many ways and I still value those traits- let others go first. Be polite. You just get walked over now though if you behave too meekly.

I'm not a militant antinatilist when it comes to other people. I do fear for their children though. I just hope things turn out ok for them.

 

[FuneralCry]

No matter what I'll always see procreation as something so horrifying and disturbing, it disturbs me how humans so harmfully impose existence even know nobody can suffer from never existing at all yet in existence there is unlimited potential for the most extreme pain, torment and agony.

Human existence truly is such an abomination, under no circumstances would I ever wish to be conscious and aware with the ability to suffer endlessly just waiting to decay and die anyway, only never existing is perfection to me. I wish humans had the compassion and awareness to not impose meaningless suffering onto others, how could anyone procreate when existence is this cruel and futile, it's so tragic to me how this human species hasn't gone voluntarily extinct yet.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

To the average person, antinatalism is viewed as being an extreme belief, especially within a society where people are pressured to have children. A lot of people may go as far as to view antinatalists in the same light as natalists, thinking of them as two sides of the same coin. People also don't like feeling guilty for things they have done and they don't want to view those they are close to them as a bad for their actions. That's part of why so many shitty behaviours, such as the use of corporal punishment on children, are so normalized. As a result, antinatalism ends up being viewed as a dumb belief by people who should "kill themselves if they hate life so much" (funny part is that you know these same people will also call themselves mental health advocates despite saying shit like this).

I don't consider myself an antinatalist, though I am sympathetic to that philosphy and I do think that it makes more sense in comparison to natalism. However, it's not that hard to see why a lot of people aren't huge fans of AN when just looking at how we are brought up. The idea of being childfree is still a very new one and even that has been getting a lot of pushback from others, especially those on the right and those from more traditional upbringings. Women, especially, get shamed for not wanting kids. AN will likely not become that widely accepted anytime soon.

Most people don't believe in it out of stupidity (views on who is and who isn't stupid are also subjective so that argument would be meaningless), but rather it is because people have been conditioned all their life to have their end goal be to start their own nuclear family. It's only very recently that we have been seeing more pushback against this goal, as more and more people decide that they don't want children, so it's not suprising that most people aren't antinatalists. Antinatalism is a bit too extreme for a society where we only are just now trying to normalize being childfree.

 

[ForgottenAgain]

You are a product of the world and you are here depressed , wanting to die. This is already empirical evidence.
Just because most people aren't depressed doesn't mean they don't suffer most of their lives or that the world is anything but trash.

A lot of people don't suffer most of their lives, otherwise there would be a lot more people here. I may be here but that doesn't mean I think the world is shit, I don't, I think life is a good thing. My circumstances are not good and that's not a fault of life or the world, it's how things happened.

Don't take it so deeply, we can have differing opinions, we can agree to disagree.

 

[sserafim]

To the average person, antinatalism is viewed as being an extreme belief, especially within a society where people are pressured to have children. A lot of people may go as far as to view antinatalists in the same light as natalists, thinking of them as two sides of the same coin. People also don't like feeling guilty for things they have done and they don't want to view those they are close to them as a bad for their actions. That's part of why so many shitty behaviours, such as the use of corporal punishment on children, are so normalized. As a result, antinatalism ends up being viewed as a dumb belief by people who should "kill themselves if they hate life so much" (funny part is that you know these same people will also call themselves mental health advocates despite saying shit like this).

I don't consider myself an antinatalist, though I am sympathetic to that philosphy and I do think that it makes more sense in comparison to natalism. However, it's not that hard to see why a lot of people aren't huge fans of AN when just looking at how we are brought up. The idea of being childfree is still a very new one and even that has been getting a lot of pushback from others, especially those on the right and those from more traditional upbringings. Women, especially, get shamed for not wanting kids. AN will likely not become that widely accepted anytime soon.

Most people don't believe in it out of stupidity (views on who is and who isn't stupid are also subjective so that argument would be meaningless), but rather it is because people have been conditioned all their life to have their end goal be to start their own nuclear family. It's only very recently that we have been seeing more pushback against this goal, as more and more people decide that they don't want children, so it's not suprising that most people aren't antinatalists. Antinatalism is a bit too extreme for a society where we only are just now trying to normalize being childfree.

Why do you think that society pressures people to have children? Why are women shamed for not wanting kids? Why have people have been conditioned all their life to have their end goal be to start their own nuclear family?

 

[Little_Suzy]

Being born is not a choice.
Suicide is a choice.
Death is the conclusion.

There is no need to subscribe to an extreme ideology when you can commit suicide if you believe your birth was a mistake, or wait until natural death. We were not doomed to live forever! lol

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Why do you think that society pressures people to have children? Why are women shamed for not wanting kids?

Having children keeps women trapped in shitty and abusive relationships. It's a lot harder to escape a bad marriage with a child and/or while pregnant in comparison to when you are childfree. Forcing women to have multiple children also helps to keep women out of the workforce, making them financially dependent on their husbands, which only gives the patriarchs of the famillies more power. Along with that, a lot of religions also like the push the idea of women having many children, which further ties into everything. When women don't have children, they aren't tied down to anyone. When women don't have children, they are deviating away from traditional norms. It's easier to escape abusive relationships, it's easier to focus on their careers, and it's easier to be independent.

Along with that, being a childfree women also represents women having control over their bodies and sexuality. It highlights the bodily autonomy that we now have (at least in the West). Women being able to make choices about their own bodies goes against the patriarchial structure of our world and, as a result, it leads to women who refuse to have children being shamed. A lot of people view motherhood as being an inherent part of womanhood, so anything that deviates from that norm is looked at with scrutiny.


Children also act as a great way to keep people working in shitty jobs. It's much easier to quit your job and look for a new one when you only have yourself to worry about and not a child that you have to feed. Children are also easy to manipulate, so they act as good pawns to be used for all sorts of bigoted rhetoric and they can raised to become indoctrinated more easily.

 

[sserafim]

Being born is not a choice.
Suicide is a choice.
Death is the conclusion.

There is no need to subscribe to an extreme ideology when you can commit suicide if you believe your birth was a mistake, or wait until natural death. We were not doomed to live forever! lol

You wouldn't need to resort to suicide if your parents never had you in the first place though. It's better never to have been. Antinatalism for me is just about me not having kids. I can't control what other people do

 

[Placo]

I had read that births are decreasing all over the world, to tell the truth, even in countries with high natality, in a certain sense everyone is becoming anti-natalist.

 

[Little_Suzy]

You wouldn't need to resort to suicide if your parents never had you in the first place though. It's better never to have been. Antinatalism for me is just about me not having kids. I can't control what other people do

True! Where do we even start, tho?!!!

"I didn't ask to be born." Well, nobody did! You are already here, just like the rest of us! lol

The thing is, I don't see suicide as tragic or quitting. If you are overly concerned about how your natural death will unfold, I believe it is a dignified death on your own terms. Will you live until you die, or would you prefer to time your death? The experience varies from person to person.

Personally, rather than making antinatalism my religion, I take comfort in the fact that humans are not endowed with immortality.

 

[sserafim]

I have conflicts with both of my parents but that's not why I'm an antinatalist. They are the reason why I have problems though. They brought me here into this world. If they didn't have me, then I wouldn't have any problems because I'd be nonexistent. Anyways, that's besides the point. I believe that procreation is immoral because there's no reason to have children that isn't selfish. From a moral and logical standpoint, procreation is unethical because you're choosing to force someone into existence who cannot consent to it.

 

[AbusedInnocent]

Being born is not a choice.
Suicide is a choice.
Death is the conclusion.

There is no need to subscribe to an extreme ideology when you can commit suicide if you believe your birth was a mistake, or wait until natural death. We were not doomed to live forever! lol

I never really understood the "you can always kill yourself if you don't like it" argument.

You're still going to suffer for a few years until you become suicidal, find a method, beat SI and CTB.

Even non-suicidal people are suffering but are tricked into believing life is desirable so they have to endure it for dozens of years until they die a natural death.

 

[JKFleck]

"They also assume that their kids will be the one to come out on top and win the competition against the rest of the population. People assume that their kids will have good lives because the risk of the contrary is so low to where they don't bother about it"

Yeah this reminds me of those BS "motivational quotes" pages I see all the time on Facebook that slap quotes on top of a picture of some random successful person

Stats say otherwise, it's just utter BS

I had read that births are decreasing all over the world, to tell the truth, even in countries with high natality, in a certain sense everyone is becoming anti-natalist.

Another factor that supports that is people (antinatalists or not) are already having financial difficulties feeding themselves, let alone even thinking about having kids

Yeah this reminds me of those BS "motivational quotes" pages I see all the time on Facebook that slap quotes on top of a picture of some random successful person

Stats say otherwise, it's just utter BS

Another factor that supports that is people (antinatalists or not) are already having financial difficulties feeding themselves, let alone even thinking about having kids

And some very poor people still decides to have children only to whine about them starving lmfao some people are really dumber than you think

 

[Unicr0n]

Antinatalism hinges on one's personal ethical/moral belief. The reality is that it's not "good" or "bad" that we are born. Regardless of your ethics/morals, good and bad are human concepts. YOU choose to apply the term good or bad to reproduction. That doesn't make it true.

YOU can't handle suffering, that's why you don't want people to be born. The majority of the world can. They are stronger. They are more resilient. Just because you have problems doesn't mean that the whole world should observe your solution as the correct one.

Even some absurdists/existential nihilists accept procreation even though life has no objective meaning, why force someone to face the absurdity of existence when the nonexistent don't even desire meaning for anything?

No one is forcing you to continue to exist. Yes, we didn't ask to be born, but we have the free will to decide whether or not we should continue existing or to end it. I think that's more freeing than never being given the opportunity of existence in the first place.

I hate when one makes the argument "foster kids/orphans/poor people would be better off having never been born than to experience that". SO SO SO many of those people are grateful for being alive today, myself included [I'm suicidal for other reasons despite the trauma]. It's an insult to say that one shouldn't be born just because it might be born into a crappy situation of suffering.

I may have had a hard life, but if I had been aborted [which sometimes I wish had happened when I was younger and my brain was still developing], I wouldn't have been able to draw and experience joy. I wouldn't have been able to save someone from committing suicide that day [twice, two different people]. I wouldn't have been able to get angry when I thought people did me wrong. I wouldn't have been able to cry and experience suicidal ideation when I realised that I was the cause of people's suffering. I wouldn't have been able to realise that maybe I could utilize my experiences to help others. I am a volunteer for victim-witness and I can now help others along their journey. I might make it full time along with suicide crisis call helping.

I wouldn't have been able to save anyone with your rationale because you believe it's better to never exist than to suffer sometimes. I believe you should suffer first and then choose whether you should live or die rather than saying you should never be allowed the opportunity to try.

We humans pride ourselves in having unique cognitive abilities that no other animal has yet our mind is so limited, we still can't agree on even the most basic issues.

It is specifically because our minds are NOT limited that we have differences in opinion on the "most basic issues". Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean their minds are limited.