Saponification

Saponification

Member
Jun 27, 2024
19
What's it to them? I've observed that pro-lifers in general, some even claiming to have experienced suicidal thoughts before, will staunchly deter others from CTBing, usually with the most moronic and meaningless platitudes that everyone has heard countless times, even though they have no business intervening with someone else's personal choice. They tell others to keep living even if they do not want to, just because. If I had to guess I'd say they do this because seeing someone wishing to die shatters their fragile ideology that life is inherently valuable.
If they really have had suicidal thoughts before, why do they seem to lack so much empathy?
 
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divinemistress36

divinemistress36

Visionary
Jan 1, 2024
2,858
To stroke their ego basically . To feel like a savior . Their life got better so they think everyone elses life can get better to
 
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Plato'sCaveDweller

Plato'sCaveDweller

Sleep is good, death is better.
Sep 2, 2024
441
That's exactly how I see it. They view any suicide as an attack on their own values, and their belief that life is worth living at all costs.

The philosopher Schopenhauer had a great bit about this. Although, he was speaking more about religions with regard to suicide than pro-lifers in general; it still hits the nail on the head:
If we abandon that high standpoint, there is no tenable reason left, on the score of morality, for condemning suicide. The extraordinary energy and zeal with which the clergy of monotheistic religions attack suicide is not supported either by any passages in the Bible or by any considerations of weight; so that it looks as though they must have some secret reason for their contention. May it not be this—that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that all things were very good? If this is so, it offers another instance of the crass optimism of these religions—denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it.
The most relevant portions being

"May it not be this—that the voluntary surrender of life is a bad compliment for him who said that all things were very good?"

"denouncing suicide to escape being denounced by it."


This is both a good and bad thing, for me personally at least. I appreciate that my suicide will be a massive middle-finger to these preventionist assholes, especially given the fact that I'll have used a method that they so desperately want to restrict. But the fact that they view suicides as an affront to what they hold dear also means that making progress toward a Right to Die for All is all but an impossibility. I don't know if things will ever change. Some people equate the RTD issue with slavery in that, racism and slavery used to be the majority and popular position, and then things changed over time as conflict ensued and social progress moved forward (in the western world, that is). But given that the RTD is directly anti-life, I don't think one can equally compare the two social issues. People are both culturally programmed and naturally inclined to favor life. And governments won't like having their worker bees just check out of the hive whenever times get tough (even though there's the argument that they might prefer to euthanize citizens over covering their social welfare needs). So who the hell knows if the RTD will ever be meaningfully implemented. We can barely get it for terminally ill people, or those with incurable suffering. I think the next line to cross - allowing people with mental illness, is gonna be a huge hurdle (though some countries are making an effort to implement this). And I can't even imagine a society allowing anyone 18 and over to simply cash in their Right to Die token and check out.

I think they lack empathy because they can't see other people's side of things. They may have had suicidal thoughts themselves at one point, like you said. But since they got over it (perhaps their issues were trivial or transitory), they think everyone else will just get over it. Even if one has been wanting to CTB for 10-15 years, they'll tell you to keep on keepin' on, like things will just magically get better one day, or that it's even worth it to wait for things to get better. They also almost always think of things positively, as in - only thinking about how things will get better, as opposed to how things might get even worse. They only look at one side of the coin. Maybe this is due to their own personal experience, or the fact that optimism is so heavily ingrained in many cultures globally.

Another reason they may not be willing to allow suicide is because it'd cause them to consider suicide as a valid option. As Thomas Szasz said, society is filled to the brim with anti-suicide propaganda. Just about everywhere you turn, everyone you talk to, is against suicide to some degree. And because suicide is seen negatively, they do not want to consider it for themselves, nor want anyone else to consider it. So they not only want to take away other people's ability to make their own choices, but also take away the choice from themselves. For some, it almost seems like they get off on it.

Religion is also a huge factor, since Christianity, Catholicism, and Islam all say that life is a gift from God (or Allah). And taking your own life is an affront to God, and you'll go to hell for it. So with the religious, you'll never be able to win them over on the RTD issue. They get pissy whenever someone with terminal cancer gets euthanized. That tells you all you need to know.

My train of thought has taken a shit. But that's what I think about this.
 
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LunarLight

LunarLight

i'm a loser, a failure
Apr 3, 2024
974
As suicidal people, we often complain about pro-lifers not even trying to understand our point of view. But I think we pro-choicers oftentimes forget to put ourselves in their shoes as well. So let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.
We must understand that for pro-lifers, nothing is more valuable than life. We only have one, and once it's over it's over for good. So from their point of view, it's perfectly understandable that they're so adamant about preventing other people from CTBing. Of course, at the end of the day, it should be up to the sovereign individual to decide whether their life is worth living or not. But their concern comes from a good intention and we should appreciate that, for what it's worth. They're afraid we'll lose everything. We can't really blame them.
 
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bluedream

bluedream

Member
Sep 15, 2019
86
i dont get the black and white view of it tbh. like, yeah i dont like when someone tells me i cant ctb and that my only option is to recover, but at the same time, if i had the means to stop a friend from CTBing and i knew they were going to, i would. Thats not a lack of empathy, ive just lost enough people that i dont want anyone else i care about to die even if i want to myself.
 
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Wolf Girl

Wolf Girl

Not looking for advice or a pep talk
Jun 12, 2024
164
Omfg. It's because the vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts change their mind. Ninety percent of people who survive a ctb attempt never ctb. Ctb is the wrong choice in the overwhelming majority of cases. Suicidal thoughts are temporary for the vast, vast majority.

These threads irritate me so much because this is why people think we're not mentally fit to decide to ctb or that we're a death cult. It's obvious how distorted your cognitions you are if you can't figure this shit out yourself.
 
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LunarLight

LunarLight

i'm a loser, a failure
Apr 3, 2024
974
Omfg. It's because the vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts change their mind. Ninety percent of people who survive a ctb attempt never ctb. Ctb is the wrong choice in the overwhelming majority of cases. Suicidal thoughts are temporary for the vast, vast majority.

These threads irritate me so much because this is why people think we're not mentally fit to decide to ctb or that we're a death cult. It's obvious how distorted your cognitions you are if you can't figure this shit out yourself.
I couldn't agree more.
 
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sancta-simplicitas

sancta-simplicitas

Arcanist
Dec 14, 2023
421
To stroke their ego basically . To feel like a savior . Their life got better so they think everyone elses life can get better to
"And now they want to help others"
i dont get the black and white view of it tbh. like, yeah i dont like when someone tells me i cant ctb and that my only option is to recover, but at the same time, if i had the means to stop a friend from CTBing and i knew they were going to, i would. Thats not a lack of empathy, ive just lost enough people that i dont want anyone else i care about to die even if i want to myself.
While I agree that the "pro-lifer" versus "pro...deather..."-discussion lacks nuance, I do think it's a lack of empathy to project your own worldview on other people. Just because someone values their own life, they shouldn't automatically assume that other people feels the same about theirs, especially because it can lead to horrible consequences for the "saved".
 
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L

lamargue

sleepwalker
Jun 5, 2024
508
the judgement that suicide is an objectively wrong choice is value-laden; there are no right and wrong choices in the case of suicide, since that requires us to pin too many assumptions on the suicide victim. it's the consequence of moralistic palaver which we have been straw-fed to accept from birth
 
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Kinasea

Kinasea

New Member
Oct 1, 2024
4
What's it to them? I've observed that pro-lifers in general, some even claiming to have experienced suicidal thoughts before, will staunchly deter others from CTBing, usually with the most moronic and meaningless platitudes that everyone has heard countless times, even though they have no business intervening with someone else's personal choice. They tell others to keep living even if they do not want to, just because. If I had to guess I'd say they do this because seeing someone wishing to die shatters their fragile ideology that life is inherently valuable.
If they really have had suicidal thoughts before, why do they seem to lack so much empathy?
This has always annoyed me, at the end of the day i do think that its my life and i should be the one who has the final say, but i can understand why they are like that.

If i knew someone was suicidal, id rather make the assumption that they're not in the right headspace to make that decision and hopefully will come to realize they never actually wanted to die. Because at the very least im preventing a suicide that the person would regret. But in the case that they are making the right choice for them, there is no way for me to know.

and so worse case scenario i just slightly delay an inevitable suicide, which isnt too bad. But best case i can prevent someone from making a regretful and permanent decision.
 
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ForgottenAgain

ForgottenAgain

On the rollercoaster of sadness
Oct 17, 2023
857
I think there is some nuance to pro lifers. I always considered myself a very open minded person, however I was a pro lifer. I ran a website designed to help people with mental illnesses vent with other people suffering from similar issues, so that people who couldn't afford therapy would have someone to turn to.

Whenever people mentioned suicide, I would tell them my website was not equipped to deal with that and I would refer them to suicide hotlines. At that time, I thought those suicide hotlines were the experts and doing a good job.

Even so, I'd still talk with people and hear them out. I'd acknowledge their awful circumstances and try to find solutions. All of the people I talked to, I could see a way out for them that was not ctb, after some time they could see it too. I cared a lot about that community, I couldn't fathom someone ctb there. I wanted to make a good impact in the world and all the problems they've shared had some options to resolve them, therefore, I thought ctb wasn't the solution for anyone, therefore I was a pro lifer.

My views changed when my life kept getting worse after more than 15 years of trying, and after reading the stories of a lot of members here.

Outside of SaSu, I have never encountered a situation that didn't have some viable option to be explored before ctb. I believe a lot of pro lifers haven't seen cases where ctb really is the most logical option. I helped the elderly and teens/young adults actively and I didn't encounter it until I joined this community.

All of this to say:
I think several pro lifers are that way because their views weren't challenged by serious cases.

I can see other types of pro lifers as well though, people who don't care about others and just wish to pat themselves on the back for "helping" others.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
37,229
I understand, personally it brings me so much pain how I cannot just have a painless death to finally be free from all the suffering in this cruel, torturous existence, I'd never wish to exist no matter what, all I hope for is to never exist again and I'd always prefer to not exist. The thought of suffering for decades longer just to be tortured by old age is horrific to me, I just wish to die painlessly to escape from all that, to me existence itself really is just a terrible tragedy that just caused endless suffering all for the sake of it, death truly would be the only relief for me.
 
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Chronicallyunwell

Chronicallyunwell

Member
Aug 9, 2024
73
Its truly unbearable, one of my friends is like this, knowing im suffering from a horrible chronic illness, telling me to 'change my relationship with pain'.
They experienced situational depression once in their lifetime so think they're some kindof guru.
This person has a huge house paid off, works 3 days per week and has a house in spain, no chronic illness.
Ugh...
 
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ijustwishtodie

ijustwishtodie

death will be my ultimate bliss
Oct 29, 2023
4,274
Because pro lifers want as many wage slaves as possible. It's all about control and maximising profit.
They're afraid we'll lose everything.
I want to be dead so that I can lose everything. There's nothing in life that I want and I want to lose it all. I hate everything about being a human. I hate having to think, having to feel, having to experience etc etc. I hate it all and I want to get rid of it all which is why death appeals to me so strongly
 
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depthss

depthss

wikihow
Dec 12, 2023
87
i think many of them want to feel like heroes more than anything, they just want to feel like theyre making a positive change, and they dont want to try to understand our position
 
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sevennn

sevennn

Experienced
Sep 11, 2024
275
i don't know why they care if some stranger dies because they want to. like if there were peaceful methods it'd be the best most great death of all. they are the ones that made this shit sad
 
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S

suffering_mo_7

Specialist
May 8, 2024
333
Its truly unbearable, one of my friends is like this, knowing im suffering from a horrible chronic illness, telling me to 'change my relationship with pain'.
They experienced situational depression once in their lifetime so think they're some kindof guru.
This person has a huge house paid off, works 3 days per week and has a house in spain, no chronic illness.
Ugh...
Yes!! I get this sort of thing all the time, including from people in my own family. Health is wealth. People can't and won't understand unless they have experienced something similar and walked in similar shoes. It's a lonely road because of it.... I just don't talk to anyone any longer. I can't relate to their world and they can't relate to mine and I am just envious of them. I admit to giving this sort of advice when life was good, when I was healthy, without pain and much suffering. How naive and stupid I was!!!
 
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Chronicallyunwell

Chronicallyunwell

Member
Aug 9, 2024
73
Yes!! I get this sort of thing all the time, including from people in my own family. Health is wealth. People can't and won't understand unless they have experienced something similar and walked in similar shoes. It's a lonely road because of it.... I just don't talk to anyone any longer. I can't relate to their world and they can't relate to mine and I am just envious of them. I admit to giving this sort of advice when life was good, when I was healthy, without pain and much suffering. How naive and stupid I was!!!
I know, i can't relate to anyone's s
shallow and stupid problems anymore, but I used to be one of them LOL...
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,129
No pro lifer is hiding under anyone's bed rn, jsyk
 
J

JR_Timm

Member
Sep 10, 2024
22
I strongly believe we are very selfish creatures by nature and they do this (mostly subconsciously) to feel good themselves.
 
Angst Filled Fuck Up

Angst Filled Fuck Up

Visionary
Sep 9, 2018
2,930
I can't imagine many people really care what others do with their lives, unless they're personally involved with them. I've never understood this whole "fight the prolifers" thing. I always feel like if I dropped off the face off the earth, nobody would really notice. Not in an emo way, but it's just, nobody gives a shit what I do or don't do.
 
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Chinaski

Chinaski

Arthur Scargill appreciator
Sep 1, 2018
3,129
.I've never understood this whole "fight the prolifers" thing.
Indeed, the only way l see this philosophy functioning is as a means to continue surviving, sometimes we all need something to rail against l guess
 
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A

Asleepatlast

Member
Sep 12, 2024
50
I think they simply haven't suffered enough.
 
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Saponification

Saponification

Member
Jun 27, 2024
19
Omfg. It's because the vast majority of people who have suicidal thoughts change their mind. Ninety percent of people who survive a ctb attempt never ctb. Ctb is the wrong choice in the overwhelming majority of cases. Suicidal thoughts are temporary for the vast, vast majority.

These threads irritate me so much because this is why people think we're not mentally fit to decide to ctb or that we're a death cult. It's obvious how distorted your cognitions you are if you can't figure this shit out yourself.
Take a chill pill. Can you elaborate on how my cognitions are "distorted"?
 
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lovelesslifeless

lovelesslifeless

~ ♪
Aug 28, 2024
42
1. The process of dying is seldom peaceful.
2. Losing a loved one is never easy.
3. It's irreversible.
4. Religious doctrine.
5. Survivor's guilt.

As long as there's always another medium for comparison - people will always hold you up to that standard.
Suicide isn't something terminal - there's always room for recovery as a lot of things can change during a lifetime, for better or for worse.
The only difference for most of us here is that we tend to gravitate towards the latter. And some people don't want recovery - some people want nothing to do with life.
 

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