Why are most Antinatalists anti suicide

[NoMoreSanity]

I keep arguing with these fools that if it's better to never have been born then why the fuck would it be ok to stay alive? Literally every antinatalist ive talked to, speaks about how shit life is and how the world is a literal hell, but the second you say anything about antinatlism=promortlaism it's "no!!!! That's not true!!! It's just about not having kids!!!!!". Then why is almost every single antinatalist ive met suicidal and miserable? How could a philosophy that claims birth is a curse and life is evil be AGAINST suicide!? Idiots. I hate antinatalists for this reason, not the philosophy, just the people. Why can't people just shut up? I just want to die and not have to worry about this stupid philosophy shit. God humans are insufferable

 

[Michelstaedter]

People are idiots; there are tons of idiots everywhere. I'm closer to nihilism than to any ideological movement like antinatalism or something like that, because in the end, if someone tells me they'd rather die, what can I say? No, that's wrong, you're sick! On the contrary, I would feel miserable because in my misery, I can't understand the suffering of others. I don't know if it's boredom, tiredness, depression, suffering, or all of the above. But I can't do much. Nor am I going to harm them or persuade them to do it, because in the end, it's not up to me. However, I think that wishing for death is normal; it's all too human, and precisely if I have anything to say about it, it's that if someone commits suicide, I feel sadder because they suffered and had to reach that point, thinking simply about the act of dying. I mean, I feel more sorry for what they suffered than for the act itself, because we will all die, but not everyone suffers in life like a suicide.

 

[StupidCat]

I've argued with some anti-natalists and their thoughts stem more from individual exceptionalism rather than saving the baby from potential suffering. Meaning they value more the individual life (even above others, including their children) so they can keep expressing their individuality as they see fit.
I'm pro choice, not pro suicide. We didn't have a choice when were conceived but that does not mean we can't have the choice to keep living. Unless especial circumstances (rare congenital sickness or something), the fetus shoud be allowed to live until they themselves decide not to.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm anti-natilist but, pro-choice when it comes to suicide. I imagine the majority of people here sit with those loose principles.

Pro-mortalism feels too extreme to me. It's forcing a belief on a sentient person that their life is shit and they'd be better off dead. They may well disagree with that! Surely, it's up to them! It's their life.

I agree with anti-natilsim- that there's something very morally questionable about bringing a sentient being alive here. What that being then chooses to do with its life is up to them though. Why should they either live or die because some other person has an opinion about it? What's it got to do with them? They can think and choose for themselves.

So, I don't agree with either pro-life protagonists or, pro-mortalist protagonists. They're both opposite sides of the same extremist and dogmatic coin- in my opinion.

As a theoretical idea though, it's certainly a tricky one. Would it be better if nothing existed? Maybe. Seeing as a little human can't achieve the feat of obliterating all life though, it only works as a theory.

 

[TemporaryToTesting]

I'm not antinatalist and I think it's an absurd, ridiculous, and easily disprovable philosophy, but I've read a hell of a lot on it and so I like to think that I'm fairly well acquainted with its arguments. Bear in mind the following comments hold a decent bit of bias so don't get too offended if you're antinatalist.

Antinatalists tend to believe that, even though the creation of consciousness is inherently worse than it never having been in the first place, its loss is more harmful than just riding it out. The best way I've heard an antinatalist put it is "Imagine if you went to a KMart instead of a Walmart to get some food. You would prefer to go to Walmart generally, but you're here, so you might as well stay here and look around a while rather than going back home food-less." If you live in a different country...I guess just replace it with different supermarket chains, IDK.

This sort of argument mainly comes from the same thing that drives antinatalism, that being "intuition pumps", which are just statements that people find intuitive, which can then be combined to result in a particular argument.

Then why is almost every single antinatalist ive met suicidal and miserable?

Ironically, I think antinatalism has taken the mantle of the modern "nihilist" that you'd see a few decades back complaining about how shitty life is or whatever. Its main proponents are generally angstier late teenagers mixed in with people who are much more tame in regards to the philosophy and aren't really distinguishable from those who describe themselves as "child-free." Very few people who describe themselves as antinatalists actually know what antinatalism fully entails, they just see it as the "Life sucks and is bad :((((" philosophy and therefore cling to it. This is a tale as old as time though - again, this happened with nihilism, with people not fully understanding what nihilism actually is and just thinking it's the "Nothing matters and life is pointless and stuff :((((" philosophy even though nihilism is arguably a very positive and freeing philosophy to hold.

I think it's also worth mentioning that antinatalists who are very pro-suicide tend to describe themselves as "efilist." Efilism (or "Life" backwards, LOL) is a fairly niche philosophy that promotes the extinction of life and consciousness due to inherent suffering.

 

[Namelesa]

I myself am antinatalist and yea it makes little sense to me how some antinatalists can be against suicide as if they against forcing people to start life then shouldn't they not be against for people to want to end it early? The philosophy focuses on consent and bodily autonomy so it makes no sense not to allow people the choice to leave this world when they want to. Also as its focused on preventing risk of harm that is life to others, it makes sense to allow suicide as a valid option as death will lead you back to when you weren't alive to begin with that is non-existence which has no suffering and so no risk of harm.

 

[NoMoreSanity]

I'm anti-natilist but, pro-choice when it comes to suicide. I imagine the majority of people here sit with those loose principles.

Pro-mortalism feels too extreme to me. It's forcing a belief on a sentient person that their life is shit and they'd be better off dead. They may well disagree with that! Surely, it's up to them! It's their life.

I agree with anti-natilsim- that there's something very morally questionable about bringing a sentient being alive here. What that being then chooses to do with its life is up to them though. Why should they either live or die because some other person has an opinion about it? What's it got to do with them? They can think and choose for themselves.

So, I don't agree with either pro-life protagonists or, pro-mortalist protagonists. They're both opposite sides of the same extremist and dogmatic coin- in my opinion.

As a theoretical idea though, it's certainly a tricky one. Would it be better if nothing existed? Maybe. Seeing as a little human can't achieve the feat of obliterating all life though, it only works as a theory.

I strongly disagree. Most people on here hate life for a good reaosn: because it's shit. Not only that, but almost every single antinatalist ive spoken to has shared grate hate twoards life and anyone who even suggests is good. Literally they will call happy people delusional and evil. If that's how one views life, as some hellish and evil mechanism, and finds the idea of joy gross, then why in the world would you not come to the conclusion of suicide? I'm sorry but the whole "pro choice" thing is not antinatalist in nature, especially since many antinatalists will judge and ridicule anyone who even suggests staying alive until their old. Most just don't talk about suicde because they fear it. Antinatalism and promortalism are two sides of the same coin.

I'm not antinatalist and I think it's an absurd, ridiculous, and easily disprovable philosophy, but I've read a hell of a lot on it and so I like to think that I'm fairly well acquainted with its arguments. Bear in mind the following comments hold a decent bit of bias so don't get too offended if you're antinatalist.

Antinatalists tend to believe that, even though the creation of consciousness is inherently worse than it never having been in the first place, its loss is more harmful than just riding it out. The best way I've heard an antinatalist put it is "Imagine if you went to a KMart instead of a Walmart to get some food. You would prefer to go to Walmart generally, but you're here, so you might as well stay here and look around a while rather than going back home food-less." If you live in a different country...I guess just replace it with different supermarket chains, IDK.

This sort of argument mainly comes from the same thing that drives antinatalism, that being "intuition pumps", which are just statements that people find intuitive, which can then be combined to result in a particular argument.


Ironically, I think antinatalism has taken the mantle of the modern "nihilist" that you'd see a few decades back complaining about how shitty life is or whatever. Its main proponents are generally angstier late teenagers mixed in with people who are much more tame in regards to the philosophy and aren't really distinguishable from those who describe themselves as "child-free." Very few people who describe themselves as antinatalists actually know what antinatalism fully entails, they just see it as the "Life sucks and is bad :((((" philosophy and therefore cling to it. This is a tale as old as time though - again, this happened with nihilism, with people not fully understanding what nihilism actually is and just thinking it's the "Nothing matters and life is pointless and stuff :((((" philosophy even though nihilism is arguably a very positive and freeing philosophy to hold.

I think it's also worth mentioning that antinatalists who are very pro-suicide tend to describe themselves as "efilist." Efilism (or "Life" backwards, LOL) is a fairly niche philosophy that promotes the extinction of life and consciousness due to inherent suffering.

I know about efilism, but they are also antin suicide because they want you to stay alive "for the cause". I don't like them either. Just as bad as religious people imo.
M

I myself am antinatalist and yea it makes little sense to me how some antinatalists can be against suicide as if they against forcing people to start life then shouldn't they not be against for people to want to end it early? The philosophy focuses on consent and bodily autonomy so it makes no sense not to allow people the choice to leave this world when they want to. Also as its focused on preventing risk of harm that is life to others, it makes sense to allow suicide as a valid option as death will lead you back to when you weren't alive to begin with that is non-existence which has no suffering and so no risk of harm.

Exactly. Funny enough most antinatalists I've seen are extremely suicidal, but when you mention " antinatalism leads to promortlaism " they get all defensive and angry about it. Its why I hate antinatalists to. Hell, I don't care if you're the most pessimistic person in the world, you would still annoy me because you fail to do anything to change the world( im not tlaking about you specifically btw, just "you" as in people). Its why I don't like humans, pro life or anti life. They all complain about shit and do nothing to fix it. All thought I am pro choice aswell, I genuinely believe once you bcome antinatalist, suicidal ideation, or suicide itself, is the only inevitable outcome for you.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I strongly disagree. Most people on here hate life for a good reaosn: because it's shit. Not only that, but almost every single antinatalist ive spoken to has shared grate hate twoards life and anyone who even suggests is good. Literally they will call happy people delusional and evil. If that's how one views life, as some hellish and evil mechanism, and finds the idea of joy gross, then why in the world would you not come to the conclusion of suicide? I'm sorry but the whole "pro choice" thing is not antinatalist in nature, especially since many antinatalists will judge and ridicule anyone who even suggests staying alive until their old. Most just don't talk about suicde because they fear it. Antinatalism and promortalism are two sides of the same coin.

I know about efilism, but they are also antin suicide because they want you to stay alive "for the cause". I don't like them either. Just as bad as religious people imo.

It's pro choice in terms of- people are free to choose suicide if they wish to. Or life- it's up to them. You can be antinatalist- think it's unwise to bring life here due to the strong possibility of suffering but then, respect the choices of that being once they are here. But, whatever. We all believe what we want to.

 

[divinemistress36]

are you talking about the ones on Reddit? I have antinatalist views but some of the people on those forums drive me nuts as they act like they are more moral and superior than everyone else

 

[JesiBel]

It sounds somewhat contradictory..

Creating life is a whim and selfish desire between two people. "Good life" is uncertain, as you can be born with a deformity or illness that disrupts your existence from the moment you are born. Not to mention if you are the result of an unwanted pregnancy, as is my case. All the worst-case scenarios are possible, it's all a matter of chance.

Life is constant suffering and struggle, and it's not easy even for rich or famous families. Calamities (of all kinds) will always be present, and there's no way to protect yourself from them.

I guess at this point I would be antinatalist. Life for me is not a precious gift or a blessing as most people claim.

I'm pro-choice. Our life is the only thing that belongs to us and we should do with it what we want. Live or die/suicide, it's your choice. Only you, your own flesh and mind know your pain. No one else should be given explanations.

I am pro-death, because for me it is the only thing that can save me and drag me out of this world.

 

[Daenerys Targaryen]

are you talking about the ones on Reddit? I have antinatalist views but some of the people on those forums drive me nuts as they act like they are more moral and superior than everyone else

I can't stand Reddit, it's a witch. It's made me feel worse. There are so many normies, pro-lifers, and you can't even talk about the CTB

 

[divinemistress36]

I can't stand Reddit, it's a witch. It's made me feel worse. There are so many normies, pro-lifers, and you can't even talk about the CTB

Oh ya the suicide forum is a joke. I mentioned someone should try ketamine for their suicide ideation and got banned lol. The depression memes on there are hilarious though

 

[Daenerys Targaryen]

I didn't get banned, but I wish I did. I want to close my account and turn off notifications. I don't know how, since I was subscribed to everything. Every morning something new pops up, and I get even more depressed :(

 

[Carrot]

Interesting question. I try to stay away from "people are stupid", that's not constructive. People can be inconsistent in their beliefs, true. Maybe because they don't think about it too much, maybe they don't want to think about it, blindly stick to something for too long and they don't want to get rid of the belief that was a big part of thief life for so long (any belief, religion, ideology), admitting mistakes is uncomfortable, don't have time to think about it, worry about other things.

I question your claim of "most". I don't know if that is true or false.

Anyway, I came up with two possible reasons that could justify it:

1. Just because you assign a negative value to life, it does not mean you need to commit suicide. Since you are already here, you might as well "recover your loses". If you assigned a number of happiness to your life, it starts with -1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, no matter what you do, not being born would have been better. But you can try to have a life, eat ice cream, watch movies, play games, do whatever makes you happy. You will die with a negative overall score anyway, but the closer you get to 0, the better.

2. If you think life has negative value, your goal could be to convince as many people to it as possible. The longer you live, the more people you can convince. It's an interesting ideology in the sense that theoretically these people should just die out naturally, but somehow they keep coming. Even if all antinatalists "died out", somebody could still come up with the same realization at some point.

I'm not necessarily showing my point of view, just trying to otherstand this strange world. I think a lot of things, ideologies can be justified in many ways, even if we find them silly or disagree with them. Each of us assigns different values to different things and it can lead to conflicting outcomes.