4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
Consciousness absolutely FASCINATES me. I'm trying to find a genuine answer (among different beliefs) about consciousness.

It seems that so many of us are curious as to what happens to our consciousness after we leave our physical body. However, I'm so curious, how and where does consciousness even BEGIN??? Who were we BEFORE we were conceived, if anything?

Every time I see a new baby, my mind always goes in this direction and it's driving me absolutely insane! I just can't wrap my mind around how consciousness begins with so many new babies constantly being born.

I just want eternal nothingness, FOREVER! The idea that consciousness may transcend death literally scares the shit out of me. If consciousness can't be created (no god), nor destoyed (no death), then can reincarnation actually be a thing? Einstein believed this. This terrifies me to my core.

Thanks. ❤️
 
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General Alek

Member
Jul 15, 2024
24
we might have been in a dreamworld that we don't remember
 
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innominesatanas44

innominesatanas44

🇷🇸
Feb 16, 2023
165
We were sperm bruh
 
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innominesatanas44

innominesatanas44

🇷🇸
Feb 16, 2023
165
Only half of us was a sperm. Who/what were we before the sperm met the egg?
Personally I believe that "we" are just a brain, so without a brain then there's no person. Who knows the truth, some children can talk in detail their past lives.
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
Personally I believe that "we" are just a brain, so without a brain then there's no person. Who knows the truth, some children can talk in detail their past lives.
THIS is what I'm hoping for. I don't want my consciousness to be eternal. ❤️
 
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General Alek

Member
Jul 15, 2024
24
THIS is what I'm hoping for. I don't want my consciousness to be eternal. ❤️
eternal AND bearable would be great

like maybe you go in and out of consciousness enough for eternal consciousness to be bearable
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,971
Consciousness is probably some mixture of electrical signals and chemistry of the body. This boils down to energy and matter. That's all we were before, it's what we are now, and it's what we'll be when we die.
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
eternal AND bearable would be great

like maybe you go in and out of consciousness enough for eternal consciousness to be bearable
LOVE your thinking! ❤️
Consciousness is probably some mixture of electrical signals and chemistry of the body. This boils down to energy and matter. That's all we were before, it's what we are now, and it's what we'll be when we die.
Thank you for this. ❤️
Does this mean our consciousness can still be absolutely gone in eternal nothingness if it's just energy and matter, or does the energy transcend somewhere in the Universe after our bodies die?
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,786
"The cradle rocks above an abyss, and common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness. Although the two are identical twins, man, as a rule, views the prenatal abyss with more calm than the one he is heading for."

- Vladimir Nabokov
LOVE your thinking! ❤️

Thank you for this. ❤️
Does this mean our consciousness can still be absolutely gone in eternal nothingness if it's just energy and matter, or does the energy transcend somewhere in the Universe after our bodies die?
Energy dissipates in different forms like heat…
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
"The cradle rocks above an abyss, and common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness. Although the two are identical twins, man, as a rule, views the prenatal abyss with more calm than the one he is heading for."

- Vladimir Nabokov

Energy dissipates in different forms like heat…
Can you explain this better to my tiny pea-brain of a mind? Thanks! ❤️
 
DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,786
@Pluto
@SmallKoy
@sserafim
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,293
Consciousness fascinates me too. I used to believe in an eternal immaterial soul, but am now a physicalist. So consciousness is a physical emergent property of a functioning brain, sort of like the earth's magnetic field emerges from earth's core of motional molten iron. The magnetic field is largely invisible and seems separate from the earth, yet we know it doesn't arise or exist without a physical origin (molten iron).

Likewise, consciousness seems like it exists separate from the brain, but actually doesn't. Science says consciousness in a fetus arises around 30 weeks after conception, so before that we were nothing.

When we die (when the brain stem and thalamus cease to function) I believe consciousness may still last for some minutes but then dissipates, sort of like when a flame in a fireplace is quenched, heat may still linger in the room for a bit before it dissipates.

I do still, as a Christian, however, believe that there will be a (physical) resurrection of the dead when Jesus returns and restores/repairs the earth and universe after judgment day. Then my body, brain and consciousness will be resurrected and also enhanced to be immortal and without pain, sorrow, sin and death forever.
 
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Dark Moon

Dark Moon

Wizard
Sep 21, 2022
686
I was thinking about that before, we could have just been something else entirely and reincarnated and/or came from a different world.
 
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EvisceratedJester

EvisceratedJester

|| What Else Could I Be But a Jester ||
Oct 21, 2023
3,415
Before you are born you just don't exist. Consciousness is a result of neural activity and doesn't transcend death.
 
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SmallKoy

SmallKoy

Aficionado
Jan 18, 2024
229
THIS is what I'm hoping for. I don't want my consciousness to be eternal. ❤️
I think we all just coping on Earth and everyone believes whatever they want to believe to cope with what happens after death. And that's perfectly okay. I personally believe there is complete nothingness after death and the thought of anything else terrifies me. So, I choose to believe that there is nothing before and after death. Nothing can really convince me otherwise because nobody knows. If you want to believe that there is nothing, then believe that and be at peace with that comfort. There is nothing to disprove either side of the coin.
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
I think we all just coping on Earth and everyone believes whatever they want to believe to cope with what happens after death. And that's perfectly okay. I personally believe there is complete nothingness after death and the thought of anything else terrifies me. So, I choose to believe that there is nothing before and after death. Nothing can really convince me otherwise because nobody knows. If you want to believe that there is nothing, then believe that and be at peace with that comfort. There is nothing to disprove either side of the coin.
This. This is what I believe most. I just always have that 1% doubt that creeps up every now and then because I'm listening to so many others different beliefs… I think that may be messing with my own beliefs a bit and it drives me crazy. When I'm in my own thoughts, I can completely picture absolute nothingness when we leave… and if that means just like sleeping without dreaming, then I am VERY OK with that. ❤️
I was thinking about that before, we could have just been something else entirely and reincarnated and/or came from a different world.
The Many Worlds Theory comes to mind and genuinely scares the shit out of me. Quantum mechanics and Metaphysics terrify me to the point to where I need to put the books down!
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,991
Humans definitely need more lives

I've written pretty extensively about this in the past. Let me know if my ideas resonate.
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,971
Thank you for this. ❤️
Does this mean our consciousness can still be absolutely gone in eternal nothingness if it's just energy and matter, or does the energy transcend somewhere in the Universe after our bodies die?
Both energy and matter are unable to be created or destroyed. Allegedly. I hear that entropy and black holes can destroy these things though but I'm too stupid to understand more. I'm sure when we die, the energy just finds some other form to exist as whether it's in the dirt or in the flames of the ashes if we're cremated or some other method of burial.
Energy dissipates in different forms like heat…
This too.
 
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J

J&L383

Mage
Jul 18, 2023
535
THIS is what I'm hoping for. I don't want my consciousness to be eternal. ❤️
I will bet you $1 million that you're right. If I'm wrong I'll pay you the one million dollars. If that's even a currency in whatever there is after we're dead.
 
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ijustwishtodie

ijustwishtodie

death will be my ultimate bliss
Oct 29, 2023
4,812
Non existent
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,786
Both energy and matter are unable to be created or destroyed. Allegedly. I hear that entropy and black holes can destroy these things though but I'm too stupid to understand more. I'm sure when we die, the energy just finds some other form to exist as whether it's in the dirt or in the flames of the ashes if we're cremated or some other method of burial.

This too.
Energy

Does energy dissipate and go away with increased entropy?
Or does the amount of energy stay consistent in the local universe eternally?


In physics, energy is defined as the ability to do work. Energy divided by time is power

Entropy is a statistical measure of state density. Concentrations dissipate, but the total is constant (AFAWK).

We can fight entropy, but nobody's won yet!
And all life fights entropy the same way we do (locally, with an energy input).


Black hole

In one sense antimatter is the most powerful destructive force (at least as far as matters concerned). But after a given amount of antimatter destroys an equal amount of matter, the antimatter is gone; a blackhole, in contrast, can destroy matter and keep on eating more and more matter without limit.

The exact effects of a black hole depend on its mass. Much of the matter that a black hole attracts forms an accretion disk of matter rotating around the black hole. The matter in this accretion disk gets heated-up due to friction between all of the matter in the disk, which ultimately results in the release of energy. As matter enters the event horizon of the black hole, we can only speculate as to what happens to it. Most scenarios involve much of the matter that enters a black hole being converted to energy or absorbed by and merged with the singularity at the center of the black hole.
Hawking radiation is not emitted from the black hole, its origin is somewhat outside of it. It still draws energy from the black hole and contributes to the evaporation of black holes. Stephen Hawking calculated that eventually a black hole evaporates. This goes faster and faster as they get smaller and smaller until they go out at the end with quite a bang. Black holes do inevitably dissipate, though over mind boggling timescales. But they do fizzle out into radiation.

I can't see a limit on the size of a black hole – the entire universe might be a black hole when viewed from the outside (Even something low-density can turn into a black hole if it is big enough…). As for the maximum size of a star, from what I've read the first stars were absolutely monstrous and could have been as big as a hundred thousand suns (mass).

I have been aware of loop quantum gravity for many years, but have not had a chance to study it in detail. Without having enough knowledge to make an informed judgment, I like it better than string theory because it has produced a comparable level of results with less than 1% of the effort.
The quantum foam also fits better with my view of how mass/energy interacts with space/time to produce gravity. I view space-time as something that is under compressive stress – it is trying to expand, and, based on supernova observations, is expanding at an accelerating rate. Mass/energy basically softens space-time, and thus light travels slower in the softer space-time of a gravitational field. Mass is also gravitationally attracted to the softer space-time because it takes less energy to occupy softer space-time. A black hole is then basically where space-time has become so soft that it has melted at the event horizon. Figuring out what is inside the event horizon may be meaningless because time dilation means that everything slows to a stop as it approaches the event horizon, so there really is nothing "inside" in any finite amount of our time and eventually the black hole evaporates.
However, this viewpoint produces the same results as general relativity until the event horizon, so I see no way to determine whether this is the explanation for general relativity. But perhaps the loop quantum gravity people will find some way to tell why general relativity works the way it does, and perhaps my viewpoint will be right (or perhaps it will be wrong).


Our energy

When we die our energy dissipates as heat and the body begins to decompose from bacteria, fungus and oxidation.

A soul is not something that you possess, it is something that you emit. When you die, you stop emitting more soul, but the soul that you have already emitted still bounces around.

Is heat the only form of energy or is it simply a byproduct of it?

The most dissipated is averaging the same amount per degree of freedom, with the amount per degree of freedom being proportional to temperature. Individual molecules each have several degrees of freedom, and are so numerous that they dominate dissipated energy*, and we call their energy "heat". * at low enough energy and low enough density the microwave background becomes significant.


Consciousness

Consciousness appears to be at least partly an emergent property. Consciousness is not all-or-nothing. Genomes and RNA/protein) networks already exhibit as much consciousness as networks of ~200 neurons, and it is likely that computers soon will, too.
The molecules that make up a neuron aren't conscious. It's the DNA that allows the neurons to configure themselves in a way that promotes consciousness. Sponges and Trichoplax don't have neurons, but research has found that sponges have cells that behave similarly to neurons i.e. the precursor for the evolution of neurons (source), likewise with Trichoplax (source).
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
Both energy and matter are unable to be created or destroyed. Allegedly. I hear that entropy and black holes can destroy these things though but I'm too stupid to understand more. I'm sure when we die, the energy just finds some other form to exist as whether it's in the dirt or in the flames of the ashes if we're cremated or some other method of burial.

This too.
Entropy and black holes are fascinating… as much as I can possibly understand them, which must be read to me like I'm a 5-year-old. I'm rooting for eternal nothingness. I hope black holes and entropy don't interfere with eternal nothingness. ❤️
Energy

Does energy dissipate and go away with increased entropy?
Or does the amount of energy stay consistent in the local universe eternally?


In physics, energy is defined as the ability to do work. Energy divided by time is power

Entropy is a statistical measure of state density. Concentrations dissipate, but the total is constant (AFAWK).

We can fight entropy, but nobody's won yet!
And all life fights entropy the same way we do (locally, with an energy input).


Black hole

In one sense antimatter is the most powerful destructive force (at least as far as matters concerned). But after a given amount of antimatter destroys an equal amount of matter, the antimatter is gone; a blackhole, in contrast, can destroy matter and keep on eating more and more matter without limit.

The exact effects of a black hole depend on its mass. Much of the matter that a black hole attracts forms an accretion disk of matter rotating around the black hole. The matter in this accretion disk gets heated-up due to friction between all of the matter in the disk, which ultimately results in the release of energy. As matter enters the event horizon of the black hole, we can only speculate as to what happens to it. Most scenarios involve much of the matter that enters a black hole being converted to energy or absorbed by and merged with the singularity at the center of the black hole.
Hawking radiation is not emitted from the black hole, its origin is somewhat outside of it. It still draws energy from the black hole and contributes to the evaporation of black holes. Stephen Hawking calculated that eventually a black hole evaporates. This goes faster and faster as they get smaller and smaller until they go out at the end with quite a bang. Black holes do inevitably dissipate, though over mind boggling timescales. But they do fizzle out into radiation.

I can't see a limit on the size of a black hole – the entire universe might be a black hole when viewed from the outside (Even something low-density can turn into a black hole if it is big enough…). As for the maximum size of a star, from what I've read the first stars were absolutely monstrous and could have been as big as a hundred thousand suns (mass).

I have been aware of loop quantum gravity for many years, but have not had a chance to study it in detail. Without having enough knowledge to make an informed judgment, I like it better than string theory because it has produced a comparable level of results with less than 1% of the effort.
The quantum foam also fits better with my view of how mass/energy interacts with space/time to produce gravity. I view space-time as something that is under compressive stress – it is trying to expand, and, based on supernova observations, is expanding at an accelerating rate. Mass/energy basically softens space-time, and thus light travels slower in the softer space-time of a gravitational field. Mass is also gravitationally attracted to the softer space-time because it takes less energy to occupy softer space-time. A black hole is then basically where space-time has become so soft that it has melted at the event horizon. Figuring out what is inside the event horizon may be meaningless because time dilation means that everything slows to a stop as it approaches the event horizon, so there really is nothing "inside" in any finite amount of our time and eventually the black hole evaporates.
However, this viewpoint produces the same results as general relativity until the event horizon, so I see no way to determine whether this is the explanation for general relativity. But perhaps the loop quantum gravity people will find some way to tell why general relativity works the way it does, and perhaps my viewpoint will be right (or perhaps it will be wrong).


Our energy

When we die our energy dissipates as heat and the body begins to decompose from bacteria, fungus and oxidation.

A soul is not something that you possess, it is something that you emit. When you die, you stop emitting more soul, but the soul that you have already emitted still bounces around.

Is heat the only form of energy or is it simply a byproduct of it?

The most dissipated is averaging the same amount per degree of freedom, with the amount per degree of freedom being proportional to temperature. Individual molecules each have several degrees of freedom, and are so numerous that they dominate dissipated energy*, and we call their energy "heat". * at low enough energy and low enough density the microwave background becomes significant.


Consciousness

Consciousness appears to be at least partly an emergent property. Consciousness is not all-or-nothing. Genomes and RNA/protein) networks already exhibit as much consciousness as networks of ~200 neurons, and it is likely that computers soon will, too.
The molecules that make up a neuron aren't conscious. It's the DNA that allows the neurons to configure themselves in a way that promotes consciousness. Sponges and Trichoplax don't have neurons, but research has found that sponges have cells that behave similarly to neurons i.e. the precursor for the evolution of neurons (source), likewise with Trichoplax (source).
LOVE THIS!! I'm going to have to read this more than once! Thanks for posting this! ❤️
I will bet you $1 million that you're right. If I'm wrong I'll pay you the one million dollars. If that's even a currency in whatever there is after we're dead.
Your certainty gives me hope. ❤️
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,414
I'm not convinced that a new born baby has the same level of consciousness that a 5 year old has. Not in terms of what I think we tend to think of as being consciousness anyway. As in- self awareness, awareness that we are a human living in this world, character, memories, rational thinking. What kind of person were you when you were a month old? Can you even remember?

I feel like babies- the same as many animals seemingly function mostly on instinct. Not to say they aren't sentient of course. But supposedly, they don't even recognise their own reflection till 18 months old. So- I tend to believe that consciousness is something that develops as the brain develops. Rather than some mystical spirit that floats in and out of us.

I suppose I'm not a complete cynic. It fascinates me how some people seem more connected to their instincts. My Nana used to believe she was psychic and, she was right about some things. It's weird the way close family members seemingly to know when a loved one is in pain or danger. That kind of thing does make me question whether we are connected in some way. Whether there is even such a thing as predestiny.
 
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K

Kali_Yuga13

Experienced
Jul 11, 2024
263
If there is preexistence than there must something along the lines of a memory wipe or drinking from the water's of Lethe (forgetfulness) as some of the Greeks thought. I find it noteworthy that many of the most advanced ancient civilizations were obsessed with death and their mystery school teachings focused so much on the subject it could be said their entire lives were structured around the preparation for death.

I've heard it described as we are a consubstantiality of spirit and matter with an analogy to be made with a radio and signal. If the radio (body) gets destroyed the signal still exists and can be tuned into with another device. This would suggest something like quantum immortality, rebirth, or reemergence at some place, at some time. I do not like the idea of being vulnerable as a child however or living again in a system designed to oppress. The new age idea of this being a school doesn't make sense to me either.

In recovery they say we are spiritual beings having a human experience. For me, I was robbed of my ability to have a good experience here and this is the same for millions if not billions of others for which it can more correctly be said that they are having a dehumanizing experience. This earth is like a factory farm for misery.

Though I've had various psychedelic and other experiences that would suggest a non-physical plane of consciousness but at this point I crave the feeling I got when being out under anesthesia, the blackness of non-sentience.
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
I'm not convinced that a new born baby has the same level of consciousness that a 5 year old has. Not in terms of what I think we tend to think of as being consciousness anyway. As in- self awareness, awareness that we are a human living in this world, character, memories, rational thinking. What kind of person were you when you were a month old? Can you even remember?

I feel like babies- the same as many animals seemingly function mostly on instinct. Not to say they aren't sentient of course. But supposedly, they don't even recognise their own reflection till 18 months old. So- I tend to believe that consciousness is something that develops as the brain develops. Rather than some mystical spirit that floats in and out of us.

I suppose I'm not a complete cynic. It fascinates me how some people seem more connected to their instincts. My Nana used to believe she was psychic and, she was right about some things. It's weird the way close family members seemingly to know when a loved one is in pain or danger. That kind of thing does make me question whether we are connected in some way. Whether there is even such a thing as predestiny.
…Such a beautiful answer. Thank you for this. ❤️
I'm genuinely curious about this, what or where can I look to find out more?
I read or heard something about Einstein where he had a friend who was mourning the dead of his wife. He told his friend something like, There's no need to be sad. Your wife isn't gone. She's just in another place in the Universe.

I'd like to understand what Einstein meant by this.
I a
If there is preexistence than there must something along the lines of a memory wipe or drinking from the water's of Lethe (forgetfulness) as some of the Greeks thought. I find it noteworthy that many of the most advanced ancient civilizations were obsessed with death and their mystery school teachings focused so much on the subject it could be said their entire lives were structured around the preparation for death.

I've heard it described as we are a consubstantiality of spirit and matter with an analogy to be made with a radio and signal. If the radio (body) gets destroyed the signal still exists and can be tuned into with another device. This would suggest something like quantum immortality, rebirth, or reemergence at some place, at some time. I do not like the idea of being vulnerable as a child however or living again in a system designed to oppress. The new age idea of this being a school doesn't make sense to me either.

In recovery they say we are spiritual beings having a human experience. For me, I was robbed of my ability to have a good experience here and this is the same for millions if not billions of others for which it can more correctly be said that they are having a dehumanizing experience. This earth is like a factory farm for misery.

Though I've had various psychedelic and other experiences that would suggest a non-physical plane of consciousness but at this point I crave the feeling I got when being out under anesthesia, the blackness of non-sentience.
I absolutely LOVE reading some of these answers! This make a lot of sense to me. Very real. Thank you. ❤️
 
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sserafim

sserafim

brighter than the sun, that’s just me
Sep 13, 2023
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
221
I believe we came from stars and we go back to stars
I was hoping someone would bring up the fact that we may have come from stardust or "stars". This makes a lot of sense scientifically speaking too. Thank you! ❤️
 
DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,786
I was hoping someone would bring up the fact that we may have come from stardust or "stars". This makes a lot of sense scientifically speaking too. Thank you! ❤️
The original quote is, "we are made of star stuff."
- Carl Sagan, Cosmos

In a sense, we do come from stars. The elements that make up our bodies, such as carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur and iron, were formed in the cores of stars through nuclear fusion (nuclear-synthesis). When these stars went supernovae, they scattered these elements which over time coalesced to form new stars, planets, and eventually, life. So, most of the building blocks of our bodies were indeed forged in stars.
However, the hydrogen in our bodies is not of stellar origin. Most of the hydrogen in the universe, including that in our bodies, was created during the Big Bang.

The bow gives life by ending life for another. Life itself supports life by ending life for another. (This is fundamentally true down to the laws of physics. Entropy is always increasing. In order to live, we consume and compete for energy. Carnivores eat herbivores. Herbivores eat photosynthesizers. Photosynthesizers eat energy from dying stars. Stars eat energy from disappearing atoms.)
This is a reference to Heraclitus, a Greek philosopher who is known for his belief that the nature of the universe is composed of the shifting balance between opposites. "Logos."
I'm genuinely curious about this, what or where can I look to find out more?
…Such a beautiful answer. Thank you for this. ❤️

I read or heard something about Einstein where he had a friend who was mourning the dead of his wife. He told his friend something like, There's no need to be sad. Your wife isn't gone. She's just in another place in the Universe.

I'd like to understand what Einstein meant by this.
I a

I absolutely LOVE reading some of these answers! This make a lot of sense to me. Very real. Thank you. ❤️
Einstein said that time is merely an illusion (albeit a persistent one).
On a quantum level, everything appears to be reversible.

What Einstein was referring to is the block universe. In this model, time is like a landscape and with the right perspective on the universe, you would see all of it layer out in front of you. Past, present and future is a whole thing.
So in that sense, time is an illusion.

As Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen said, "time is a multifaceted jewel that humans insist on viewing one facet at a time but really the past, present and future are all happening simultaneously."

Einstein thought of the block universe and warped space-time as a good way to look at the universe. I find that time is a hard illusion to shake off. But I accept that it is a plausible explanation for the universe that I perceive. It is at the boundary between philosophy and physics.


In the block omniverse, there is a cause - the universe can exist, and so it does exist.

In a single universe, quantum systems lack fixed values that can be delineated without considering the context of measurement. Quantum mechanics describes what we can measure about the world, so it is at least a mathematical model predicting measurement probabilities.
Many quantum theories attempt to explain why the world is as it is and thus to give us an understanding of what is going on, but the only one that makes sense to me is the simplest, cleanest one, the block multiverse.
Of course I am a bit biased towards my own theory...

Stephen Hawking had a wager with another scientist. He said I thought we'd be able to reverse time at one point. The universe is expanding so he thought when the universe began to contract time would reverse. He said I made a mistake. As far as we know, the arrows of time move forward: 1. Thermodynamically, thats one measure. 2. Psychologically, in how you perceive time. 3. Cosmologically, the way the universe is moving.

There are kind of two camps of physicists:

Team A: Time is an illusion/human construct.

Team B: Time is a measurable physical force/phenomenon/law/aspect of the universe


Hope this helps!
 
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Suicide Discussion
Toxinebulaic
Toxinebulaic
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Lost Magic
Lost Magic