Where is the threshold for mental capacity U.K.?

[Embers]

I've previously been sectioned whilst experiencing psychotic depressive episode, I was deemed to have no capacity because of the psychosis.

I am not psychotic now, and haven't been for years. However I still want to CTB. I have many health problems and feel like a huge burden for my family. I feel like a complete failure and that in general, it would be much better for everyone if I were not here. I'm also autistic and do not understand this world at all. I wasn't built for this existence.

I am under mental health services, however I don't share how I feel, as far as everyone is aware I'm good and I fly under the radar almost entirely.

im curious as to at what point you're deemed to lack capacity, when not psychotic and when you're clearly rational? My reasons for wanting to CTB are very logical, I am not disillusioned and have full capacity.
whilst I have zero intention of telling anyone how I feel, because that only seems to serve the purpose of potentially messing up my plans/raising suspicion, Do services deem you as no capacity simply because you want to CTB? Surely the fact the reasons I wish to CTB are fully logical & clearly not impulsive mean I have capacity and should therefore be allowed to do what I wish?

hope this makes sense

 

[Whole-Ad]

So under the Mental Health Act you can be sectioned if you are a clear risk to yourself or others. I assume that is where they say you now lack capacity. However, I completely understand what you are saying. I know 100% that I'm also not meant to be here and I have no intention of dying a natural death. I will end my life on my terms when I feel the time is right. I do not lack capacity, I just know what I want and I'm not blind to my thoughts.

 

[Embers]

So under the Mental Health Act you can be sectioned if you are a clear risk to yourself or others. I assume that is where they say you now lack capacity. However, I completely understand what you are saying. I know 100% that I'm also not meant to be here and I have no intention of dying a natural death. I will end my life on my terms when I feel the time is right. I do not lack capacity, I just know what I want and I'm not blind to my thoughts.

That's exactly how I feel!
I'm unsure if wanting to CTB immediately means you don't have capacity in their eyes? Like can you have a CTB plan and have capacity? Like I've touched briefly on the being burdensome with the mental health team, they've kinda said I'm not, but I know full well I am for various reasons. I don't lack insight into the effect my existence has on others, I know I do cause issues simply by existing. I wonder whether they would say I lacked clarity or insight because I was unable to see I 'wasn't a burden'. When that's utter bollocks because my mere existence / complex health means I do. Like you've said, I'm not blind to what's going on, it's simply the truth, but I wonder if that truth would be used by services to say I lack
I 100% do not lack capacity, I'm just not meant to be here, exactly like you've said!
I feel like you should be able to CTB and not automatically lack capacity?!

 

[Whole-Ad]

That's exactly how I feel!
I'm unsure if wanting to CTB immediately means you don't have capacity in their eyes? Like can you have a CTB plan and have capacity? Like I've touched briefly on the being burdensome with the mental health team, they've kinda said I'm not, but I know full well I am for various reasons. I don't lack insight into the effect my existence has on others, I know I do cause issues simply by existing. I wonder whether they would say I lacked clarity or insight because I was unable to see I 'wasn't a burden'. When that's utter bollocks because my mere existence / complex health means I do. Like you've said, I'm not blind to what's going on, it's simply the truth, but I wonder if that truth would be used by services to say I lack
I 100% do not lack capacity, I'm just not meant to be here, exactly like you've said!
I feel like you should be able to CTB and not automatically lack capacity?!

Yeah if you express that you have a fully thought out plan to kill yourself they will section you. I always avoid talking to anyone about this stuff. I'm currently being seen by a mental health team, but I've refused to speak to my GP because he insisted on weekly phone calls due to me not wanting to take medication. They even threatened to have my drivers license taken away from me even though I never once said anything about risky driving or crashing my car etc. What I'm trying to say is, they think they know what is best for you, and they will do anything that they think will minimise your chance to ctb and even go as far as saying you lack capacity just to section you, even if you really don't lack capacity. You know it's like you have a right to refuse medication/treatment. But if you actually do that, they will section you and force you to take it.

 

[Belle1990]

There is the mental health act which is for if you are risk to yourself or others. Then there is the mental capacity act which is used for specific situations for that individual such as finances. Capacity doesn't come into the mental health act

Mental Health Act

In most cases when people are treated in hospital or another mental health facility, they have agreed or volunteered to be there. But there are cases when a person can be detained, also known as sectioned, under the Mental Health Act (1983) and treated without their agreement.

www.nhs.uk

Mental Capacity Act - Social care and support guide

Find out what the Mental Capacity Act is and what it means for you.

www.nhs.uk

 

[LittleBabyNothing]

i've been held under section in the past when i was in a psychotic episode, about 7yrs ago.

Start of this year and i told adult mental health team and my private therapist i intend to end my life and have aquired the means. They all asked if i would be admitted voluntary to hospital, i declined.
They cannot section you for having suicidal intent alone! It is important to talk as openly as you can and as as long as you are clear you don't intend to act in that moment, they will think you are not an immediate risk to yourself.

Long gone are the days where they section you for expressing thoughts or even intent. They've not the beds, funding nor staff. And as shit as mental health understanding is they are realising that impatient isn't beneficial so don't just section people unless they really have to.

You may get some outdated professional who suggests/threatens you with it but you need more than one dr to deem you need it. If you find yourself with one trying, ignore that person and engage with other professionals. Read up on the mental capcity act, i studied it for my career and believe that knowledge helps me say just the right amount to be open with my therapist without putting her in the position to 'safeguard' me

Capacity doesn't come into the mental health act

The Mental Health Act gives powers to detain people if they are deemed not to have capacity.
The Mental Capacity Act is relevant to how they assess you and whether they can use the MHA to detain you.

 

[Belle1990]

i've been held under section in the past when i was in a psychotic episode, about 7yrs ago.

Start of this year and i told adult mental health team and my private therapist i intend to end my life and have aquired the means. They all asked if i would be admitted voluntary to hospital, i declined.
They cannot section you for having suicidal intent alone! It is important to talk as openly as you can and as as long as you are clear you don't intend to act in that moment, they will think you are not an immediate risk to yourself.

Long gone are the days where they section you for expressing thoughts or even intent. They've not the beds, funding nor staff. And as shit as mental health understanding is they are realising that impatient isn't beneficial so don't just section people unless they really have to.

You may get some outdated professional who suggests/threatens you with it but you need more than one dr to deem you need it. If you find yourself with one trying, ignore that person and engage with other professionals. Read up on the mental capcity act, i studied it for my career and believe that knowledge helps me say just the right amount to be open with my therapist without putting her in the position to 'safeguard' me

The Mental Health Act gives powers to detain people if they are deemed not to have capacity.
The Mental Capacity Act is relevant to how they assess you and whether they can use the MHA to detain you.

Okay that's not my understanding of it all the MHA is determined in regards to safety to them self or others. MCA is about day to day capacity stuff each individual factor would require a separate MCA assessment these can also be repeated as that individual improves or worsens. They can be used in conjunction with each other but a person will not be sectioned because they lack capacity never come across it so far.
But will agree to disagree.
And no they can't section you just for suicidal intent but will conduct a ARMS assessment and establish extent of suicidal intent/support network and again this will be down to risk to self, same as if a person was having an episode of psychosis

 

[LittleBabyNothing]

They can be used in conjunction with each other but a person will not be sectioned because they lack capacity

Exactly my point, they are seperate but can be used in conjunction.
I lacked capacity as assessed by the MCA in psychotic episode so sectioning powers under the MHA were used to detain me to prevent me harming myself.
Mental Capacity is about having the ability to make decisions with a sound mind even if that choice is deemed unwise.
If you fear being sectioned under the Mental Health Act is it important to understand how mental capacity is assessed and used.
I've worked on on mental health wards and more often than not sections were granted for reason of lack of capacity.

Do services deem you as no capacity simply because you want to CTB?

No. The Mental Capacity Act states that a person can make unwise choices as long as they understand their actions, the consequences and are able to retain that infomation. Expressing intent to end your life does not get you sectioned.
Telling them you intend to take action immediately possibly will as they have a duty of care. i just make sure i tell them 'i do not intend to act in this moment' and i can talk as openly as i need about my suicidal thoughts, intent and plans.

 

[Embers]

There is the mental health act which is for if you are risk to yourself or others. Then there is the mental capacity act which is used for specific situations for that individual such as finances. Capacity doesn't come into the mental health act

Mental Health Act

In most cases when people are treated in hospital or another mental health facility, they have agreed or volunteered to be there. But there are cases when a person can be detained, also known as sectioned, under the Mental Health Act (1983) and treated without their agreement.

www.nhs.uk

Mental Capacity Act - Social care and support guide

Find out what the Mental Capacity Act is and what it means for you.

www.nhs.uk

Oh gosh really?! I thought the whole thing of the mental health act was regarding capacity?! I assumed I was sectioned because they deemed I'd lacked capacity. So can you have capacity and still be sectioned??

 

[LittleBabyNothing]

Oh gosh really?! I thought the whole thing of the mental health act was regarding capacity?! I assumed I was sectioned because they deemed I'd lacked capacity. So can you have capacity and still be sectioned??

There are so many different sections to both the Mental Health Act and Mental Capacity Act to cover a whole variety of situations. Sometimes only one Act will apply and is used but often to section someone they use lack of capacity as a reason and then the MCA is used along side the MHA.
But in response to the situation you describe, to section you even if expressing suicidal thoughts they would have no grounds to unless they can show you lack capacity in this moment to your current actions. You clearly have capacity so just don't tell anyone you are acting on intent in the immediate future and you're fine.

 

[TessB]

I've previously been sectioned whilst experiencing psychotic depressive episode, I was deemed to have no capacity because of the psychosis.

I am not psychotic now, and haven't been for years. However I still want to CTB. I have many health problems and feel like a huge burden for my family. I feel like a complete failure and that in general, it would be much better for everyone if I were not here. I'm also autistic and do not understand this world at all. I wasn't built for this existence.

I am under mental health services, however I don't share how I feel, as far as everyone is aware I'm good and I fly under the radar almost entirely.

im curious as to at what point you're deemed to lack capacity, when not psychotic and when you're clearly rational? My reasons for wanting to CTB are very logical, I am not disillusioned and have full capacity.
whilst I have zero intention of telling anyone how I feel, because that only seems to serve the purpose of potentially messing up my plans/raising suspicion, Do services deem you as no capacity simply because you want to CTB? Surely the fact the reasons I wish to CTB are fully logical & clearly not impulsive mean I have capacity and should therefore be allowed to do what I wish?

hope this makes sense

I find uk mental health services hilariously bad. I'm on active review so they phone you check on me regularly.. and I have someone new doing it now as the last one was so bad. So when the woman called me the other day I literally told her I'm suicidal and I have SN on the way and am not sure when it will arrive. I told her I've previously had a police visit for trying to order it before..
What was her reaction? Well firstly she's never heard of sodium nitrite.. which I find amazing since it's been covered extensively in the media and medical papers and stuff this year. It's her line of work!
Second... she did nothing about it at all except say she would call me again in a month. I even said to her the SN was due to arrive by May 7th and there she was scheduling a call with me for after that!!
No I'm not TRYING to get sectioned. I just give no fucks how much information I give these people as they don't care and I enjoy proving that to myself.
Oh AND by the way I also have told them more than once that I sometimes get drunk and drive to see if I can crash and ctb that way. Driving license wasn't taken... nothing happened!! Oh dear mental health uk... MUST DO BETTER!!!!!

 

[Unicorns]

I find uk mental health services hilariously bad. I'm on active review so they phone you check on me regularly.. and I have someone new doing it now as the last one was so bad. So when the woman called me the other day I literally told her I'm suicidal and I have SN on the way and am not sure when it will arrive. I told her I've previously had a police visit for trying to order it before..
What was her reaction? Well firstly she's never heard of sodium nitrite.. which I find amazing since it's been covered extensively in the media and medical papers and stuff this year. It's her line of work!
Second... she did nothing about it at all except say she would call me again in a month. I even said to her the SN was due to arrive by May 7th and there she was scheduling a call with me for after that!!
No I'm not TRYING to get sectioned. I just give no fucks how much information I give these people as they don't care and I enjoy proving that to myself.
Oh AND by the way I also have told them more than once that I sometimes get drunk and drive to see if I can crash and ctb that way. Driving license wasn't taken... nothing happened!! Oh dear mental health uk... MUST DO BETTER!!!!!

I find them really bad too. I get a phone call once a month for 10 minutes and it feels like they are just ticking their boxes to protect themselves.

Your right, it doesn't matter how much info you give them they still don't bother. They cover themselves at inquests by saying they didn't tell us they were suicidal so how were we to know? or if someone tells them they are suicidal, they just say the fact they told us meant they weren't.....

They are so underfunded. They don't have the hospital beds either.

 

[Mentalmick]

I can also confirm what has been said about UK mental health services. I tell them everything because I know I won't be sectioned, even the hilariously dangerous way I ride my motorbike.

 

[D11FER]

Okay that's not my understanding of it all the MHA is determined in regards to safety to them self or others. MCA is about day to day capacity stuff each individual factor would require a separate MCA assessment these can also be repeated as that individual improves or worsens. They can be used in conjunction with each other but a person will not be sectioned because they lack capacity never come across it so far.
But will agree to disagree.
And no they can't section you just for suicidal intent but will conduct a ARMS assessment and establish extent of suicidal intent/support network and again this will be down to risk to self, same as if a person was having an episode of psychosis

Okay that's not my understanding of it all the MHA is determined in regards to safety to them self or others. MCA is about day to day capacity stuff each individual factor would require a separate MCA assessment these can also be repeated as that individual improves or worsens. They can be used in conjunction with each other but a person will not be sectioned because they lack capacity never come across it so far.
But will agree to disagree.
And no they can't section you just for suicidal intent but will conduct a ARMS assessment and establish extent of suicidal intent/support network and again this will be down to risk to self, same as if a person was having an episode of psychosis

The MCA is used in the first instance in relation to the assessment of capacity.
Firstly fundamental part of British law everyone has capacity until proven otherwise.
first part of the assessment does the person have a disturbance of the functioning mind or brain ? Second part of functional assessment is the impairment Sufficient enough to impair the decision making process.
MCA can be used it 2 ways day to day elements however it is also used for more life changing decisions like surgery and finance.
If an individuals needs require their Liberty or be altered then DOLS is used Deprivation of Liberty safeguards it is at this point the assessment would consider if the person is experiencing any type mental health concern! If the person is a danger to self or others due to a mental health concern the MHA is then used instead of the MCA. They are not used in conjunction in any shape or form. One follows the other and MHA out trumps MCA.
I could go further into the whole process if you need me to, but the whole element of capacity is a very complex subject and the outcomes vary from person to person.
hope this clears this up

 

[theresonlyonewayout]

I was picked up by police a couple of weeks ago having od on antiemetic and with SN in my pocket. I was all over the place, hallucinating in the middle of the road. I don't remember much to anything about it but I do know that my CMHT has not contacted me at all about it. I don't even think they have a duty of care tbh. Not a single fuck given.

 

[Unicorns]

I was picked up by police a couple of weeks ago having od on antiemetic and with SN in my pocket. I was all over the place, hallucinating in the middle of the road. I don't remember much to anything about it but I do know that my CMHT has not contacted me at all about it. I don't even think they have a duty of care tbh. Not a single fuck given.

I'm sorry you weren't given any help or support. Don't take it personally, they really r that rubbish.

There's all these campaigns in the UK about talking about mental health. What they don't say is there's very little help when you do open up. It would be much better to have a campaign for better mental health treatment. There's been cutbacks after cutbacks but mental health problems are on the rise.

 

[elfgyoza]

I can also confirm what has been said about UK mental health services. I tell them everything because I know I won't be sectioned, even the hilariously dangerous way I ride my motorbike.
View attachment 66110

Don't think you're invincible though! I thought I was and ended up getting sectioned lol. I'm more careful now

 

[Embers]

Don't think you're invincible though! I thought I was and ended up getting sectioned lol. I'm more careful now

Agreed! I have zero intention of telling anyone anything haha. I don't trust any of them! I was purely curious as to what ground you could be sectioned on if not in a psychotic episode, given my only experience was when I was ( allegedly) psychotic

 

[Mentalmick]

It seems to vary wildly between regions. I could tell my cpn I had plans to kill myself without being sectioned whereas somewhere else someone could get sectioned for something like self harm, which would never happen here. In fact, people have been booted out of hospital for self harm.

 

[theresonlyonewayout]

I'm sorry you weren't given any help or support. Don't take it personally, they really r that rubbish.

There's all these campaigns in the UK about talking about mental health. What they don't say is there's very little help when you do open up. It would be much better to have a campaign for better mental health treatment. There's been cutbacks after cutbacks but mental health problems are on the rise.

Thanks although, I wasn't after help - I was trying to massively avoid it lol. Walked miles into the countryside, away from roads and saviours. It didn't work out the way I'd extensively planned and got caught by the police - damn. No biggy, still got my SN.

You're right tho. I think they would prefer to help people who give good statistics ie those who can have a quick course of CBT and are 'fixed'.

 

[elfgyoza]

It seems to vary wildly between regions. I could tell my cpn I had plans to kill myself without being sectioned whereas somewhere else someone could get sectioned for something like self harm, which would never happen here. In fact, people have been booted out of hospital for self harm.

Definitely depends on the country, I've heard people being forced because of self harm, but it tends to be in the US.
I only got sectioned because my cpn knew I had SN (although not what it is), I've tried before, and I didn't have any plans beyond that week. It's the not making plans that escalated it, I'd had the SN for months and she knew that