What would need to happen so that his fans realize Putin is our enemy?

[noname223]

European/German perspective here.

The world gets darker from day to day. This could get very very serious. The Trump administration seems to abandon Europe. I expect Trump will announce that US troops will leave Europe either partially or as a whole after the negotiations with Putin. Europe is cooked. But the US is also cooked with Trump as dictator.
Experts consider it very likely that Putin will test NATO committment to article 5 when US troops have left. It is likely he will cross the borders of some Eastern European countries and observe the NATO response. Usually NATO had to start an all out war. But Europe is not ready for war.
This were different scenarios come into play. We will send military so that Russia leaves NATO territory. But what will Putin do? We certainly should not rely on the US defending us. It is way more likely NATO will break down. Then we are an easy target for Putin. I don't imagine that an all out war is near. But I would not rule it out. (between Europe and Russia): But the cyberwar will escalate way more. More and more people in Germany will fall for Russian propaganda and vote for parties that appease Russia. Or even endorse Putin's actions. Europe gets destabilized.

The most read newspaper wrote that whole Europe will soon look like Ukraine. It could happen.

The most insane thing is how many Germans especially in East Germany fully buy Russian propaganda. But the Trump voters bought way more misinformation.
In Germany it is insane. We are full of Putin apologists who want that Ukraine surrenders/blame Selensky for the war. The most famous is Sahra Wagenknecht she even has funded a new party. Days before Putin invaded Ukraine she made fun of claims Putin will invade Ukraine. He would never do that, we can trust him. It is recorded she said it on TV. And many many more Putin apologists said that. Then they found new excuses for Putin. We don't see his perspective. Ukraine started that war. And all this bullshit. The thing is the world gets darker and darker. And the winners write history, set up narratives. It is very likely more and more people will buy into this narrative. We get to a very dangerous point in history. It is likely Russia and the US will cooperate. My friends hope we could do a deal with the Chinese. However, I doubt they will save our ass. The thing is even if Putin tests NATO's article 5 Putin apologists will still be on his side. They will rationalize everything.

My theory is even if Putin invaded Germany. People would say a Russia occupation is better than the US occupation thus far. They will have to learn it the hard way. The same goes for Trump voters. People will realize it eventually but then it is already too late. And the same can be applied to Putin. I think Americans will be focused on their own hardship if it comes to that.

 

[Languish]

Don't count on people to be intelligent or rational. Most tend to just be populist, and go with mob mentality. Add to that that liking Putin is also a meme, and so many do so out of social relevance and being quirky and fun. Anti-woke masculine men love Putin because he reminds them of themselves, they love the idea of a manly no-bullshit conqueror who others serve. They don't respect women, and further still tend to objectify them. They cling to a power fantasy at the expense of anyone else. Typical narcissism. You will not get through to them short of Putin wearing a dress, being a pussy, and emasculating himself.

 

[Rabscuttle]

It's a shame NATO felt the need to expand even in the wake of the dissolution of the USSR. Some concessions are going to have to be made to Russia in order to stop the looming catastrophe, how else do people see it playing out? I'm not supporting Russia or Putin, but people really need to acknowledge the societal PTSD present in Russia resulting from the fall of the Soviet Union. They feel, whether justified or not that they were 'had' once by the west, and now they're determined not to let it happen it again. What goes on in Ukraine is a true tragedy, and those people, hell all people deserve peace. We need more pragmatism and less dogmatic leaders clinging to ideals of a bygone world.

 

[user6932]

Europe is basically screwed from that point of view. Russia tried to destabilize Europe for over 15 years with their propaganda, financing pro Russian newspapers and making donations to politicians and political parties. And even after the annexation of parts of Ukraine and the full scale invasion we didn't really do something about it. Businesses avoid sanctions by making triangulations with Kazakhstan or some other country and everyone seems fine with it.

Even with a war on our doors we Europeans seem unwilling to do anything about it and that's kind of sad.

I don't really feel like blaming Trump. I mean he probably will make some mistakes and maybe already has but the responsibility for this whole mess is all ours. I just hope that we will soon have something like a EU army and that it will take Russia some time to recover from the current war before they'll launch the next invasion. Otherwise we may be the next Belarus.

 

[noname223]

It's a shame NATO felt the need to expand even in the wake of the dissolution of the USSR. Some concessions are going to have to be made to Russia in order to stop the looming catastrophe, how else do people see it playing out? I'm not supporting Russia or Putin, but people really need to acknowledge the societal PTSD present in Russia resulting from the fall of the Soviet Union. They feel, whether justified or not that they were 'had' once by the west, and now they're determined not to let it happen it again. What goes on in Ukraine is a true tragedy, and those people, hell all people deserve peace. We need more pragmatism and less dogmatic leaders clinging to ideals of a bygone world.

I doubt that the war in Ukraine is healing the alleged PTSD from Russian people. Instead the war Putin has willingly started will get a lot of me both in Ukraine and Russian severe PTSD. And there are many reports that traumatized Russian soliders abuse their wifes now. And all the soliders (rapists, murderers, psychopaths) who got a get out of the jail card by Putin for fighting in this war. The war is certainly not good for the Russian people quite the Opposite. It causes so much damage to both countries. The PTSD argument is pretty bullshit in my opinion. Where have you Heard it? It simply does not make sense. Putin's Plan to spend 1/3 of the budget on military will certainly not heal anyone's PTSD.

Putin can go fuck himself. There is a lot evidence what will await the people in Ukraine in occupied territory. I don't want to sacrifice them. And Putin is greedy He won't stop if we surrender to him. We don't owe him anything. If He only wanted parts of Ukraine why did He invade the whole Country? Why should we trust him? If we sacrifice Ukraine what will be the next part of his menu? Poland? And Putin apologists will also find excuses in case that happens.

Damn I wish Germany would get some nukes.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I doubt that the war in Ukraine is healing the alleged PTSD from Russian people. Instead the war Putin has willingly started will get a lot of me both in Ukraine and Russian severe PTSD. And there are many reports that traumatized Russian soliders abuse their wifes now. And all the soliders (rapists, murderers, psychopaths) who got a get out of the jail card by Putin for fighting in this war. The war is certainly not good for the Russian people quite the Opposite. It causes so much damage to both countries. The PTSD argument is pretty bullshit in my opinion. Where have you Heard it? It simply does not make sense. Putin's Plan to spend 1/3 of the budget on military will certainly not heal anyone's PTSD.

Putin can go fuck himself. There is a lot evidence what will await the people in Ukraine in occupied territory. I don't want to sacrifice them. And Putin is greedy He won't stop if we surrender to him. We don't owe him anything. If He only wanted parts of Ukraine why did He invade the whole Country? Why should we trust him? If we sacrifice Ukraine what will be the next part of his menu? Poland? And Putin apologists will also find excuses in case that happens.

Damn I wish Germany would get some nukes.

It's not them healing from it, but it is them processing it. Those kids and teenagers in the 90s who saw their world fall apart and saw the immense stress and fear on their parents, are now adults themselves. How do you think that trauma will manifest? Russia and Russians are afraid, and they don't want to see their society fall apart again.

Mortality in Russia Since the Fall of the Soviet Union - PMC

Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. What has happened to mortality in Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union? What explains the wide swings ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

What was Germanys reaction to WW1 and the treaty of Versailles.

This is not me comparing or making excuses. But we can't pretend to care about wanting to end this conflict without acknowledging the foundations that started it.

 

[noname223]

It's not them healing from it, but it is them processing it. Those kids and teenagers in the 90s who saw their world fall apart and saw the immense stress and fear on their parents, are now adults themselves. How do you think that trauma will manifest? Russia and Russians are afraid, and they don't want to see their society fall apart again.

Mortality in Russia Since the Fall of the Soviet Union - PMC

Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. What has happened to mortality in Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union? What explains the wide swings ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

What was Germanys reaction to WW1 and the treaty of Versailles.

This is not me comparing or making excuses. But we can't pretend to care about wanting to end this conflict without acknowledging the foundations that started it.

Mentioning the treaty of Versailles does not make sense here. Now you yourself are comparing Russia with Nazi Germany when you mention the treaty of Versailles. So we should have given Nazi Germany Poland and Austria to heal the PTSD of the people in Nazi Germany because that treaty was this unfair? It would make more sense that Russia Needs a New beginning after a clear defeat with a different leader. But this won't happen if we give parts from Ukraine to Russia. Instead this will strengthen Putin. This is a weird lesson of the second World war in my opinion.

I don't think the Russian people actually wanted this war and there is no real benefit for them. It does not help them at All. And I also doubt giving them a destroyed Ukraine would help them with their traumata.

Even if this Was a reaction of traumata. As I Said many Men are abusing their wifes after trauma I don't really See why we should appease such a behavior. Noone would want that. There simply is no compromise of letting this Happen simply because of This alleged traumata.

 

[Rabscuttle]

Mentioning the treaty of Versailles does not make sense here. Now you yourself are comparing Russia with Nazi Germany when you mention the treaty of Versailles. So we should have given Nazi Germany Poland and Austria to heal the PTSD of the people in Nazi Germany because that treaty was this unfair? It would make more sense that Russia Needs a New beginning after a clear defeat with a different leader. But this won't happen if we give parts from Ukraine to Russia. Instead this will strengthen Putin. This is a weird lesson of the second World war in my opinion.

I don't think the Russian people actually wanted this war and there is no real benefit for them. It does not help them at All. And I also doubt giving them a destroyed Ukraine would help them with their traumata.

Even if this Was a reaction of traumata. As I Said many Men are abusing their wifes after trauma I don't really See why we should appease such a behavior. Noone would want that. There simply is no compromise of letting this Happen simply because of This alleged traumata.

The German people were devastated in the wake of WWI and the treaty of Versailles further punished them. These conditions were fertile ground for the Nazis to come to power. In a similar vein the Soviet Union fell, in part due to the west (primarily the US) and it has led to fertile ground for modern Russia to be extremely distrustful of NATO and the west as a whole. NATO was formed to oppose the Soviet Union, and once it fell they still kept expanding and creeping up on Russia. What's the justification for this?

Once again this is not them helping their trauma, this is them acting in a way that they see as a means to prevent future trauma, a hard line in the sand, a we won't repeat the 90s etc.

Comparing men abusing their wives doesn't work here, because the West, and I hate to say it Ukraine, are not blameless in this conflict. Russia has committed atrocities, and is in no way justified in the level of devastation committed, but they didn't just invade Ukraine on a whim and out of simplistic expansionist motives. In reality this war has been going on for 10 years at this point

I don't know what the approval rating is for Russians support of this war, but I think you'd probably be unpleasantly surprised. The majority of westerners have not gone through something similar to what Soviet citizens went through in the 90s.

The bottom line is Ukrainian people deserve peace, but if people think the only way to achieve that is by militarily overwhelming Russia, then idk what to tell you, you're asking for Armageddon.