WhiteDespair

WhiteDespair

The Temporary Problem is Life
Oct 24, 2019
837
after a bit of reading posts on this site, lacking socialization and loneliness stands as a cause of CtB and a hurdle to overcome for those trying to recover.

my objective is to create some sort of guide to help us increase us social ability.

as someone with ADHD and Autism (we'll find out for sure tomorrow if those 10 internet ASD tests that showed moderate to high ASD are true) I had to develop my social skills from a different perspective. I made amazing advancements in being social in the past year and wanted to pass along how to be social from a neuro-atypical perspective as most socialization tips apply best to neuro-typical folks.

as such, I ask the following questions to start:

which parts of being social do you want to know about?

how much does loneliness and lack of socialization contribute to your CtB?

what factors discourage you from socializing?

what do you find easy about socializing?

what do you find difficult about socializing?

what other aspects of being social that are not listed would you find valuable?

please keep responses short
please do not provide stories or explanations
please avoid using adjectives and other qualifiers
please avoid personal information
please do not state that learning to be social is impossible
please do not frame things in terms of gender

the idea is to get to the central concerns as generically as possible.

I'll take a look at the responses and see what I can do.

let's get something together and help people recover.
 
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Umbrella Weather

Umbrella Weather

Catastrophe Merchant
Mar 7, 2022
65
The issue I have with socializing is that I feel so threatened by even the most innocuous of encounters that I disassociate and become a foreign agent. This replacement of self by a fawning, desperate to please, unreliable, and frankly crazed replacement makes the entire world feel fraught and frightening... And any engagement—even the slightest—has us ruminating over our miscommunications until we swear to never interact with another again. The only ambition becomes to find a place where there are no people or die. Hence us being here.

The horror is... We want nothing more than to have a friend, to find community, to be productive socially. Yet our entire experience of life demands that we avoid all of it, lest we find ourselves in a trap of cyclical and unending regret, rumination, and self-loathing.

I would be interested to glean your insights when it comes to such a predicament as described... To me, it feels fatal.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
The issue I have with socializing is that I feel so threatened by even the most innocuous of encounters that I disassociate and become a foreign agent. This replacement of self by a fawning, desperate to please, unreliable, and frankly crazed replacement makes the entire world feel fraught and frightening... And any engagement—even the slightest—has us ruminating over our miscommunications until we swear to never interact with another again. The only ambition becomes to find a place where there are no people or die. Hence us being here.

The horror is... We want nothing more than to have a friend, to find community, to be productive socially. Yet our entire experience of life demands that we avoid all of it, lest we find ourselves in a trap of cyclical and unending regret, rumination, and self-loathing.

I would be interested to glean your insights when it comes to such a predicament as described... To me, it feels fatal.
This post is like a Sanctioned Suicide haiku. Beautifully succinct yet infused with a rich flavour of sincerity and experience. Top ten of all time.

Please stick around enough time to produce more relatable and graceful posts.
 
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rationaltake

rationaltake

I'm rocking it - in another universe
Sep 28, 2021
2,712
The issue I have with socializing is that I feel so threatened by even the most innocuous of encounters that I disassociate and become a foreign agent. This replacement of self by a fawning, desperate to please, unreliable, and frankly crazed replacement makes the entire world feel fraught and frightening... And any engagement—even the slightest—has us ruminating over our miscommunications until we swear to never interact with another again. The only ambition becomes to find a place where there are no people or die. Hence us being here.

The horror is... We want nothing more than to have a friend, to find community, to be productive socially. Yet our entire experience of life demands that we avoid all of it, lest we find ourselves in a trap of cyclical and unending regret, rumination, and self-loathing.

I would be interested to glean your insights when it comes to such a predicament as described... To me, it feels fatal.
Do you have more than one personality?
 
Simba

Simba

Missunderstood Potato
Dec 9, 2018
751
which parts of being social do you want to know about?

understanding people a bit more ,not necessarily to be "normal".. i just want to understand a bit better so they might be less misunderstandings since it happens and it makes me frustrated


how much does loneliness and lack of socialization contribute to your CtB?

Somewhat i suppose ,its mainly my autism that i end up getting frustrated and not understand everything n so on that i keep thinking what if i never had autism maybe i wouldn't have depression either n therefore not become too aware to the point of having suicidal thoughts..


what factors discourage you from socializing?


That I'll end up getting frustrated and that I'll missunderstand n stuff or if i feel like i made someone uncomfortable or something then i may shut down idk


what do you find easy about socializing?


i tend to overshare ,idk if that's good or not..
Asking a person if they want to be my friend.. i was also once told that im too clingy so idk :/


what do you find difficult about socializing?


When i dont understand a situation or when sometimes i dont really know what to say or i just shut down or whatever.. or the fact that you talk bout certain topics and you get told that is not appropriate idk
And maintaining friendships/relationships


what other aspects of being social that are not listed would you find valuable?


Friendships/Relationship's ,loyalty ,trust ,honesty and bluntness i guess.. oh and openness..
 
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Umbrella Weather

Umbrella Weather

Catastrophe Merchant
Mar 7, 2022
65
Do you have more than one personality?
Upon review, I see that I worded my question up there poorly. When using the words 'us' and 'we', I only meant to include others out there that feel the same way, not that I view myself as having a multitude of individuals within my actualized self—not at all. I see my error in how that was worded and a misunderstanding is fully understandable, if that is what happened here.

Although, I do take on different presentations of my personality to cope with what I perceive to be threatening situations, absolutely. And I do not have control over that presentation, as a clerk in a grocery store can present as equally threatening to me as a person screaming at me with a gun. And at that point of ill-perceived confrontation, be it someone at a crosswalk or a passerby in my apartment building, I will dissociate and whatever happens within that encounter feels out of my control. There have frequently been times where I feel like I am on the ceiling looking down at myself while I talk nonsense and practically beg for acceptance, without the ability to stop myself from blabbering—and I will often straight-up lie to 'escape' whatever deathly 'trap' I feel like I am in, something which just makes me feel even more ashamed than I already do.

To put it into friendly terms: I get Stockholm Syndrome whenever picking up my meds at the drug store, getting things at the grocery store, or whenever encountering another human being anywhere ever.

(The one upside to this dissociation for me, fortunately, is that I do go into a fawning mode—a desperate desire to please, and will say anything and do anything to make you like me and allow me to leave without you hating me or thinking I've done wrong—and that I would never present as someone angry or violent. Thank whoever for that...)

This was a bit too long, I see that. However, that misunderstanding I possible crafted in that post of mine up there is glaring and I really should have been more careful and observant... I'll remember to try and be more attentive the next time I attempt to post here :)
 
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WhiteDespair

WhiteDespair

The Temporary Problem is Life
Oct 24, 2019
837
thank you. I've compiled a list of items and broke them out into a spreadsheet
 
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WhiteDespair

WhiteDespair

The Temporary Problem is Life
Oct 24, 2019
837
@Simba

listen


the first, and most important, step when entering a situation is to listen. this means not to talk, especially when a tangental thought comes to mind. it's hard to do at first as it is a new skill to learn.


listening allows you to figure out the situation. you can determine whether the mood is serious or not, what topics are being discussed and which are off limits, and generally learn some stuff.


by listening, and not speaking, you can sit back and observe. for example, there are many times during holiday dinners where I'll just concentrate on eating the meal and listening to what my family has to say. most of it may not be too useful but you can figure people out. once you have that then you can adapt.


this also means not to correct someone unless it's a matter of, figurative, life and death. if someone is going to miss the exit off the highway, that's a good time to speak up. if someone says they went to mcdonalds and they actually went to burger king, that's not a great time to chime in. the message is more important than the medium. if the point of the speaker is not obscured by a minor error, don't worry about it.


also, don't try to be funny. you're not. at least, not yet. what you think is funny usually isn't and your jokes will backfire. I became quite humorous and it took time. it was a slog of saying the wrong things and changing things up when they weren't producing laughter. in the most extreme case I can recall, my joke insulted someone and his face completely changed. I said that I was okay with him decking me after noticing his reaction. he pretty much became jovial after. remember, that you may not be able to recover the situation.


as a general rule, use the "grandma test." the grandma test is a filter for posting on social media - if you wouldn't say it in front of your grandma, then don't post it. the same applies when speaking with people. if what you want to say fails the grandma test, it's best to let it remain unsaid.


learn body language


I never learned how to read body language. whether it's due to poor socialization or autism, I don't know. however, this is something you can learn. this is how I got my longest girlfriend. I looked up signs of attraction and I picked up on these.


the best place to start is looking for facial language. humans are very expressive. learn what someone looks like when happy, sad, etc. and you can tell the effect of your words or actions.


two of the best tells are the crows-feet smile and the eyebrow raise. the crows-feet smile is the smile when the muscles around the sides of the eyes crinkle (called crows feet when you get older). that's a genuine smile. when you receive one of those remember what you said and to whom you said it. chances are that the subject is important to the person and appreciates the positive attention brought to it. the eyebrow raise occurs when someone sees someone or something they like. if someone gives you an eyebrow raise when that person sees you, that's a great sign. people will also raise their eyebrows when speaking if they mention something they like. what's cool about this is that the eyebrow raise can betray someone's true intentions. if someone's eyebrow raises don't match what they're saying, take note. for example, if someone talks about how they aren't a gold digger but raise their eyebrows everytime they mention money, it's a pretty good bet that they are in it for financial gain.


pretty much, you just need to go to your favorite search engine and input "signs a woman is attracted to you" or "how to tell if someone is happy" or whatever combination gets you the search results you want. then, read the articles and note the signs that overlap between the articles. those will be the most common signs. others may not be as common and, while good to know, shouldn't be the ones you focus on.


as a note, sometimes these signs are masked. a good example is that when a woman wears makeup, there is a chance that the crows-feet smile will be obscured. the same is true when someone wears sunglasses or regular glasses.


build knowledge


your main objective is to build knowledge. learn which people like what, compile a list of signs to pay attention to and reactions to you. the more you practice and interact with people, the more you'll find out what works and what doesn't. this creates a functional base with which you can analyze situations. do so.


once you build enough knowledge, and you really don't need too much to start, you can then apply what you've learned to social situations.


then, you can find evidence to counteract the negative thoughts. I've had thoughts of "nobody likes me for who I am" or "I have no friends" completely obliterated because I had evidence to the contrary. the best part is that providing evidence kills those thoughts instantly. they don't last when you can prove otherwise. something that would have had me ruminating for hours was done in 30 minutes.


that feeling is your friend


whenever you get that feeling of unease after you say something or if you experience cognitive dissonance (kind of a confusion when two or more ideas contradict each other), pay attention! figure out why you had that feeling. see if the feeling was justified by the other person's reaction. if you can tell yourself, "okay, I'm feeling anxious because I said something and she didn't respond well. I'll make a note not to do that again." you can use make sense of the unease. that makes it easier to manage. the same thing is true for cognitive dissonance. for example, a woman asked if I had plans for New Years. that caused confusion because I didn't have a good response. I didn't plan on anything for New Years. when she mentioned it, it caused me cognitive dissonance. I looked back on it and found that I should try to make plans and, if I don't, say that I didn't make any instead of trying to figure something out on the fly.


you'll gain a lot of insight if you pay attention to those unpleasant feelings. and, you can figure out when someone else is causing you to feel unease rather than your own reaction. once you figure that out you remove a powerful tool from their arsenal. they can't make you feel bad if you know they're trying to hurt you. after practice, anyway.


take it slow


there's no need to rush. go at an easy pace. learning as you go is more important than going fast. go too fast and you can end up in situations you're not prepared for. if you can't roll with them you can find yourself in trouble. so, ease yourself into it. the reason I had so much explosive growth is from years of study. it also helps when someone directs your autism toward being social. take it slow, or as fast as you need to, and focus on what you can learn and accomplish. things build on top if each other. you may not even notice that you're doing things you never would have before.
ok. that was an interesting week. I overclocked my brain. I zoned out while zoned out. yeah, that was weird. then, it took 3 days to recover enough from mental fatigue to write this. I don't exactly know what I processed but, damn, that knocked me out.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
Fuck me, you wrote a god damn socialization manual, and it's a good one too!
 
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Simba

Simba

Missunderstood Potato
Dec 9, 2018
751
@Simba

listen


the first, and most important, step when entering a situation is to listen. this means not to talk, especially when a tangental thought comes to mind. it's hard to do at first as it is a new skill to learn.


listening allows you to figure out the situation. you can determine whether the mood is serious or not, what topics are being discussed and which are off limits, and generally learn some stuff.


by listening, and not speaking, you can sit back and observe. for example, there are many times during holiday dinners where I'll just concentrate on eating the meal and listening to what my family has to say. most of it may not be too useful but you can figure people out. once you have that then you can adapt.


this also means not to correct someone unless it's a matter of, figurative, life and death. if someone is going to miss the exit off the highway, that's a good time to speak up. if someone says they went to mcdonalds and they actually went to burger king, that's not a great time to chime in. the message is more important than the medium. if the point of the speaker is not obscured by a minor error, don't worry about it.


also, don't try to be funny. you're not. at least, not yet. what you think is funny usually isn't and your jokes will backfire. I became quite humorous and it took time. it was a slog of saying the wrong things and changing things up when they weren't producing laughter. in the most extreme case I can recall, my joke insulted someone and his face completely changed. I said that I was okay with him decking me after noticing his reaction. he pretty much became jovial after. remember, that you may not be able to recover the situation.


as a general rule, use the "grandma test." the grandma test is a filter for posting on social media - if you wouldn't say it in front of your grandma, then don't post it. the same applies when speaking with people. if what you want to say fails the grandma test, it's best to let it remain unsaid.


learn body language


I never learned how to read body language. whether it's due to poor socialization or autism, I don't know. however, this is something you can learn. this is how I got my longest girlfriend. I looked up signs of attraction and I picked up on these.


the best place to start is looking for facial language. humans are very expressive. learn what someone looks like when happy, sad, etc. and you can tell the effect of your words or actions.


two of the best tells are the crows-feet smile and the eyebrow raise. the crows-feet smile is the smile when the muscles around the sides of the eyes crinkle (called crows feet when you get older). that's a genuine smile. when you receive one of those remember what you said and to whom you said it. chances are that the subject is important to the person and appreciates the positive attention brought to it. the eyebrow raise occurs when someone sees someone or something they like. if someone gives you an eyebrow raise when that person sees you, that's a great sign. people will also raise their eyebrows when speaking if they mention something they like. what's cool about this is that the eyebrow raise can betray someone's true intentions. if someone's eyebrow raises don't match what they're saying, take note. for example, if someone talks about how they aren't a gold digger but raise their eyebrows everytime they mention money, it's a pretty good bet that they are in it for financial gain.


pretty much, you just need to go to your favorite search engine and input "signs a woman is attracted to you" or "how to tell if someone is happy" or whatever combination gets you the search results you want. then, read the articles and note the signs that overlap between the articles. those will be the most common signs. others may not be as common and, while good to know, shouldn't be the ones you focus on.


as a note, sometimes these signs are masked. a good example is that when a woman wears makeup, there is a chance that the crows-feet smile will be obscured. the same is true when someone wears sunglasses or regular glasses.


build knowledge


your main objective is to build knowledge. learn which people like what, compile a list of signs to pay attention to and reactions to you. the more you practice and interact with people, the more you'll find out what works and what doesn't. this creates a functional base with which you can analyze situations. do so.


once you build enough knowledge, and you really don't need too much to start, you can then apply what you've learned to social situations.


then, you can find evidence to counteract the negative thoughts. I've had thoughts of "nobody likes me for who I am" or "I have no friends" completely obliterated because I had evidence to the contrary. the best part is that providing evidence kills those thoughts instantly. they don't last when you can prove otherwise. something that would have had me ruminating for hours was done in 30 minutes.


that feeling is your friend


whenever you get that feeling of unease after you say something or if you experience cognitive dissonance (kind of a confusion when two or more ideas contradict each other), pay attention! figure out why you had that feeling. see if the feeling was justified by the other person's reaction. if you can tell yourself, "okay, I'm feeling anxious because I said something and she didn't respond well. I'll make a note not to do that again." you can use make sense of the unease. that makes it easier to manage. the same thing is true for cognitive dissonance. for example, a woman asked if I had plans for New Years. that caused confusion because I didn't have a good response. I didn't plan on anything for New Years. when she mentioned it, it caused me cognitive dissonance. I looked back on it and found that I should try to make plans and, if I don't, say that I didn't make any instead of trying to figure something out on the fly.


you'll gain a lot of insight if you pay attention to those unpleasant feelings. and, you can figure out when someone else is causing you to feel unease rather than your own reaction. once you figure that out you remove a powerful tool from their arsenal. they can't make you feel bad if you know they're trying to hurt you. after practice, anyway.


take it slow


there's no need to rush. go at an easy pace. learning as you go is more important than going fast. go too fast and you can end up in situations you're not prepared for. if you can't roll with them you can find yourself in trouble. so, ease yourself into it. the reason I had so much explosive growth is from years of study. it also helps when someone directs your autism toward being social. take it slow, or as fast as you need to, and focus on what you can learn and accomplish. things build on top if each other. you may not even notice that you're doing things you never would have before.
ok. that was an interesting week. I overclocked my brain. I zoned out while zoned out. yeah, that was weird. then, it took 3 days to recover enough from mental fatigue to write this. I don't exactly know what I processed but, damn, that knocked me out.
Thanks so much even tho is long i read it all i could try doing some see what happens
 
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batcountry

batcountry

Member
Mar 22, 2022
22
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this. It's truly selfless of you to put so much effort into this and it really is appreciated so much. I know this is going to be really helpful for a lot of people including myself, thank you so much.
 
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WhiteDespair

WhiteDespair

The Temporary Problem is Life
Oct 24, 2019
837
thank you for the appreciation!

thank you @Umbrella Weather for helping me realize that the guide needed to help combat rejection sensitive dysphoria

I realized that the guide would need to counteract rejection sensitive dysphoria, explain the absolute basics of socialization, and foster metaphysical thought

there's more, I would like to post on the subject. I just need to recover a bit.

wanted to get something out for Simba, batcounty, Umbrella Weather, and lurkers.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
Metaphysical thought?
 
WhiteDespair

WhiteDespair

The Temporary Problem is Life
Oct 24, 2019
837
abstract thought. easy to lose the ability to think in those terms when your world is compressed down to what brings people here. at least for me.
 
WhiteDespair

WhiteDespair

The Temporary Problem is Life
Oct 24, 2019
837
asking without asking


one way to get friends is to learn how to ask without asking. women are masters of this. both times, recently, women wanted me to share something with them was them asking for contact information. "hey, can you send me the name of that band?" is a subtle way of asking for someone's number, whatsapp, whatever.


many, many times people will not really be overt in their intentions, for whatever reason, and you might be able to infer them. things such as, "want to catch the game?" or "let's grab a beer." are two ways men can offer friendship without directly stating it. I'm sure women have similar sayings to other women. I'm not a woman so I don't know.


in general, you don't need to be blunt about asking for friendship. it's often better to be more subtle.


common interests are a good start. you can schedule a match of Halo, go to a concert or whatever. I made a friend because he was talking about a concert and I liked one of the bands in the lineup. I mentioned that and he invited me to come along. I did and had a great time.


uncommon interests are a neat place to look and a lot harder. this is when you find something you like in something someone else likes. I've found concepts that interested me that spanned unrelated activities.


by the way, friendship isn't really about the activity, it's about the people you're with. remember, "watching the game" doesn't really mean staring at the screen for 3 hours.


enter analysis mode


I have an analysis mode. you might have one too. use it to your advantage.


I kinda "first" noticed it when I was having the root of my toenail cauterized to prevent ingrown toenails. after the initial emotions of seeing the blood and the q-tips sticking out of my big toe, I found that I could study what was going on without trouble.


I guess you could call it "take a step back and settle down" but that's not really what happens, for me anyway. it's more of entering an unemotional and observational state. Lieutenant Commander Data comes to mind.


the idea is pretty much this: if you're feeling "emotional" or whatever, see if you can enter your analysis mode and take a look at what's going on.


maintaining friendships


maintaining friendships is kinda easy and easy to forget. it really comes down to a few things.


communication - you'll need to communicate with people to maintain friendships. it could be as easy as a text or email. it doesn't need to be a huge production. try sending a couple of message next holiday (Easter here).


phoenix wright principle - phoenix wright is the titular character of the ace attorney series. the objective of these visual novels is to question people and present evidence to solve crimes. if you present some characters with the correct evidence you'll advance the plot. otherwise, you'll receive a generic "that doesn't apply to me" response. this translates to real life, too. everyone you meet has their own likes and dislikes (their own evidence, if you will). steer toward a person's likes and avoid the dislikes and you're on your way. think of it like this: would you invite a metalhead to a country music show? probably not.


reciprocity - reciprocity is fairly easy. it's pretty much responding in kind for another. so, if someone buys a round of drinks, do the same. if your roommate gets your mail, do the same. or, something similar. if someone gets you a coffee you can return with a bottle of soda later on. try to exchange like for like. if someone holds the door for you there's no reason to buy a cake. the cool thing is that it will form a positive loop where each person helps the other out.


do stuff - it's easy to dismiss but you'll need to do stuff with people. this primarily refers to when people ask you to go out. you really only get a few chances here, eventually people will get tired of you saying "no" and you'll stop being asked. take the invitation. do stuff. you might have more fun than you realize.


say "yes" before you can say "no" - if you find yourself dismissing opportunities because you think or talk yourself out of them, try saying "yes" before you get a chance to convince yourself into a "no."


share - share your successes and failures with your friends. it's hard to do. we have trust issues in a lot of ways. if you share stuff with friends you all can celebrate the successes and work through the failures. friends will do the same with you as well. start small and work your way from there.


speak in past tense - this is especially true with therapists or anyone who can commit you to an institution. if you're feeling CtB or whatever, tell the other person in past tense terms. change "I want to CtB." to "I wanted to CtB last weekend." putting this into past tense terms helps keep people from jumping to conclusions. plus, I find it easier to talk to my therapist this way about those things. it might help.


respect


respect is earned. this is true. you don't receive respect unless you do something to get respect. you don't get it for simply showing up. and, sometimes, you won't get someone's respect until you do something relevant to that person. it works both ways. you earn the respect of others and they earn yours.


try following the golden rules. it's a decent enough place to start getting respect.


golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you


simply, treat people the way you'd like to be treated. we've heard the mantra many times in many forms. this is a good way to begin the respect interactions.


goldener rule - do unto others as they would do unto themselves


treat people the way they want to be treated. if someone's a germaphobe then try to make it a point to show them you're washing your hands. if someone is on top of the world because of a success, build that person up and celebrate the accomplishment. this is better for when there is some respect established.


goldenest rule - you get what you fucking deserve


treat people as they deserve to be treated. hold in contempt that which is contemptible. hold in esteem that which is virtuous. if someone is using you, you can cut them off without hesitation.


basically, treat people civilly and courteously. give respect when it's earned. and don't be afraid to disrespect when appropriate.


listen to your brain


I don't know if anyone else gets this. occasionally, when I do something my brain gets "tingly." it's a pleasant sensation anyway. I've noticed it a bunch after good interactions with people. when a woman "glowed" at me (it's like a super smile) I got that sensation. I suspect that it has something to do with mirror neurons and seeing the positive effects on another. that's usually the case, anyway.


regardless, if your brain is giving you good signals when you're socializing, take note and try to do those things in the future.


I guess this means that you could try to leverage your mirror neurons. mirror neurons are pretty much your brain's way of sensing what another person is feeling. mirror neurons trigger and mimic the state of the other person.
 
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