What does the Epstein story tell us about human nature?

[noname223]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/02/world/europe/epstein-norway-britain-princess-fergie-emails.html

In another email, also sent in November 2012, she (Norwegian Crown Princess Mette-Marit) asked Epstein whether it was "inappropriate" to suggest a picture of "two naked women with a surfboard" as a cell phone background for her then 15-year-old son. Epstein replied that the son should decide for himself, "the mother should stay out of it".
This is just an anecdote. And you know Trump is already mad because Norway didn't give him the Noble Peace Prize. What if he finds out the Crown Pricess is the rival for being Epstein's best friend.

I am really not sure about the answer to this question. Does the Epstein case tell us a lot about human nature or nothing? Is it only telling us about the elite and rich people or about people in general?

Many people in high society loved to spend time with Epstein and many knew that he was a groomer. Many people with a good reputation spent time with him. Does this imply we can never be sure about someone's real intentions and character no matter how principled this person seems? Are maybe the one's who pretend to be good people sometimes the worst. On the other hand, Trump, Steve Bannon and Michael Jackson always seemed to be a little off. I am not totally surprised that they are compromised.

One thing I really ask myself. Does this say a lot about the elites? Or does this say more about the rotten character of most average people? Does power really corrupt? Is there a causation between power, money, fame and questionable ethics and abusive behavior? Why are only some elites part of the Epstein class? Were they smart enough to know this will sooner or later come out? I mean people like Chomsky should have been able to anticipate that. Is this more the case there was an opportunity to visit this guy Epstein with the hope to get away with it. What was the motive? Were all of these people fascinated by abusing power? Or was it simply chic to spend time with him? I mean there are pictures of Bannon and Chomsky with Epstein. I mean the sympathy for groomers can seemingly bypass even the most heated political dividing line there ever were.

Is the story most men are monsters? And there are relatively speaking at least some women who willingly participate in child abuse. Why was Epstein so popular? Because child abuse is the most taboo thing that remains and people who have everything also want to cross that boundary? Or would the average Joe and Jane also participate in that if they had the chance? I am not sure whether that's solely an elite thing is. Some weeks ago I started listening to wifiskeleton. An artist who committed suicide. And it turned out he was a groomer. The most popular song Nope it's already too late I already died has a ridiculous line (the Nice line is pretty cool though).

Next day, I'm walkin' the road
Kickin' rocks, it's my fault
My life's the worst story told
I'll be this way 'til I'm old
I rip a page out the book
I'm just so misunderstood
I always think about her
And when my life felt good

This I am so misunderstood is such a lame excuse there are hard evidence for his misbehavior. In the moment of fame he chatted with minor fans and pressured them to send nudes and stuff like that. Though, after his death many people don't care anymore about the allegations. It gives me the feeling if people get the opportunity for abusing their power they will do it. And many people don't actually have power. Child abuse is often not only done by pedocriminals for sexual reasons it is also simply an act of feeling superior to someone who cannot defend him or herself.

People like Nick Fuentes even defend Epstein. It is his new edgy take. He claims Epstein wasn't even a pedophile because the victims were teenagers. (but still minors)

I think it is a too simply answer that only the elites were morally corrupt. There is a lot of child abuse happening even in ordinary families where you would not expect it. For me it shows rather problematic traits of many people. Under certain circumstances they act on them. Does this vice versa imply the people in power who don't abuse it were extremely virtuous? I don't think so. They probably abuse power in a less obvious way. Because honestly that this comes out eventually doesn't seem that unlikely.
On the other hand, if we say this behavior was simply contingent on external factors one would also absolve the criminals from their responsibility. This is why this cannot be the full and last conclusion.

What do you think? I am not entirely sure what to conclude...

 

[badatparties]

The breadth and depth of evil human behavior on this planet is unconscionable. We are a failed experiment and shouldn't exist.

 

[amor.dor]

I use a translator, so forgive me if some parts come out strange, but this is what I think.

I believe the Epstein case only shows that people who have everything live in a state of boredom. We, mere ordinary people, are constantly struggling to satisfy our most basic needs—like ensuring food and shelter. We spend a lot of time working. But for people who already have everything? Since there isn't much struggle—except for having more money—these people experience a very rapid hedonistic escalation. Common pleasures, because they have them all the time, degenerate, and they seek something increasingly taboo, since taboos heighten the sense of reward. There's also the exclusivity, the novelty, and the often-described feeling of having control over others.

Regarding why many important figures were close to him, I believe many of them weren't involved in those activities, but it had to do with being seen with powerful people to show they're part of the elite, reinforcing their image and ego. Others, when they saw what he did or were invited, had this sort of "morbid" curiosity. I believe these things happen all the time, but since they involve the elite, it's heavily covered up. Just look at the Franklin Conspiracy Cover-Up in the United States in the 1980s, which included everything from crimes against children to deistic Satanism. The irony is that around that time, the "Satanic Panic" emerged, with scapegoats being people who just dressed in black or were into countercultural music, while the actual elite was the one doing it all.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I believe the Epstein case only shows that people who have everything live in a state of boredom.

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[bluemoirai]

It's painful to think about, especially considering that in certain societies pedophilia is generally accepted and legal. And is it just a coincidence of historical circumstances that it has not become generally accepted in the West? I can't (or I don't want to) draw any conclusions, sorry.
Maybe the problem is really in power, I don't know. Power is not only about having a lot of money, you can have family, church or professional power. I just dream of a huge rock from space crashing into this planet, sorry.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I just dream of a huge rock from space crashing into this planet, sorry.

Don't be sorry, I feel the same.

Nick Fuentes

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[amor.dor]

I only talked about one of the points. It's always difficult for me to write in a language I don't know how to speak complex ideas.

But back to the subject, recently in my country, there was a dog that was beaten and left to die. The perpetrators were young people from wealthy families. This has shaken the entire country. What I've noticed is that people with a lot of money feel entitled to exploit, abuse, and mistreat anyone below them. They feel justified in doing whatever they want because they have the power to do so. There is definitely sadism and a huge ego in this type of people.

 

[fkyou]

It is not less bad than any of the bad things happening daily

 

[Dejected 55]

So many things... don't know where to start. I'll start with the worst part and work from there I guess.

First up... a lot of people don't seem to really know what a pedophile is, so let's start there. A pedophile is an adult who is attracted to young people BECAUSE they look young. A true pedophile historically discards (read into that however you wish because it can be horrible) victims once they reach mid-teens, especially ones that look more like adults. Don't get me wrong... sexualizing and abusing and all the things are HORRIBLE to do to any person for any reason, and especially so for underage people and/or people who do not consent. I'm NOT defending anything. But... there is a difference between the perversion of men who like sex with 15 year old girls because they look like young adults VS the men who like to have sex with 6-12 year old girls or boys because they like when kids are kids and look very young. VERY different perversions in play, all horrible, and probably all deserve the exact same punishment... no defending any of it... All I'm saying is, people misuse the words or don't understand them and it blurs the lines.

Why do the labels matter? A perverted man who likes 15 year old girls because they are young, impressionable, naive, can be groomed, etc. BUT he likes them because they look like a young woman... *that* dude is going to deny being a pedophile, and he'd be right, but it gives him a foothold that he does not at all deserve to defend how he isn't a horrible pedophile like those other guys so what he is doing is "ok" somehow. Don't give them the luxury of any chance to weasel out of things.

That out of the way...

I've said before, I'm afraid a LOT more people are perverted than any of us would like to know. It's just most people don't have the resources or opportunity or courage to commit their perversions. So, we see this kind of shit mostly with the rich and powerful because they are in the best position to get away with it. Plain and simple. Now, this doesn't mean all rich and powerful are horrible. I'm just saying the money and power doesn't so much corrupt people as it reveals them. A dude who never has the resources or opportunity appears to not be a pervert because he can't do what he wants and it never manifests... but, give that man power and resources and opportunity or at least 1 or 2 of the three... and watch (sadly) what happens. Meanwhile, truly good people don't use their money and power to do the horrible shit because they never wanted to in the first place.

Unfortunately, the way our society is constructed... the perverted and corrupt people are more incentivized to succeed, are more rewarded for out-of-bounds behavior to get their power and money, and are generally more likely to get that power and money. Somehow our society doesn't make it easy for good-natured people to really thrive. It can happen, sure... but they are generally outnumbered. Maybe in part because good-natured people are outnumbered in society at all levels? Who knows.

Then you have the defenders, apologizers, and enablers... there are a lot of people who defend the bad because they wish to have that ability so they want to not only support it but hope by doing so they will get noticed and allowed into the special horrible club. Then there are the people who don't care or think rich/powerful people deserve this and some people deserve to be victims.

Randomly... consider how many people who condemn rape (rightfully so) are gleeful at the idea of someone in prison being raped as a punishment. Which means on some level they are okay with rape as long as it happens to someone they don't like... and, worse... if a bad dude is getting raped in prison and you think that's deserved... consider that you are cheering the person who is doing the rape and is enjoying that activity... so that's just a weird headspace for me. I condemn rape, and I think rapists need to be punished harsher than they ever are and should be separated from general society... for serial rapists and especially child molestors, I'm fine with the death penalty too. But you're never going to convince me that rapists should be raped as punishment, thereby allowing other people to rape with impunity because you're okay with the victim suffering in that case because he did that to others.

The world is kind of just fucked between all the people who do the horrible and all the people who support them and all the two-faced people who condemn horrible if they dislike the person but cheer it if they like them... there's little room for the decent people to navigate this world... and as I began with, I don't think the adage of "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is entirely apt because it assumes people are better than they are. I think power gives you the chance to be your true self, and if your true self is good then you will do good with your power, but if you are bad you will do horrible... and people will think it is because you were corrupted by power, when you just finally got the chance to do the shit you always wanted to do anyway.

 

[FadingSnowFake]

I'm starting to think the ones in power may be lizard people, or all abusers for that matter. It's the power they wish to exert over others. And the ones who can see this more than others, are us suicidal folks, the ones who've been hurt, the suffering humans. Almost as if the powerful gets stronger as they hurt more people, develop into a cruel human race, which continue to evolve in cruelty, oppressing more and more to make the world a worse and worse place every day.

And I agree with @badatparties about the failed experiment we as humans are.

 

[CTB Dream]

me no need see any me knw human scum speces all all, injury damage me prtnd no hpn any, this rlty speces awfl put sstm human awfl sstm rslti epstn othre this rlty ppl no want see, human scum ya human scum, me hpn injury damage nobd care say come come nobd come this ppl rglr do imgn mnstr watdo, rly awfl scum speces rly wish me nvr exst rly wish no see any human

 

[psychosis]

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/02/02/world/europe/epstein-norway-britain-princess-fergie-emails.html

In another email, also sent in November 2012, she (Norwegian Crown Princess Mette-Marit) asked Epstein whether it was "inappropriate" to suggest a picture of "two naked women with a surfboard" as a cell phone background for her then 15-year-old son. Epstein replied that the son should decide for himself, "the mother should stay out of it".
This is just an anecdote. And you know Trump is already mad because Norway didn't give him the Noble Peace Prize. What if he finds out the Crown Pricess is the rival for being Epstein's best friend.

I am really not sure about the answer to this question. Does the Epstein case tell us a lot about human nature or nothing? Is it only telling us about the elite and rich people or about people in general?

Many people in high society loved to spend time with Epstein and many knew that he was a groomer. Many people with a good reputation spent time with him. Does this imply we can never be sure about someone's real intentions and character no matter how principled this person seems? Are maybe the one's who pretend to be good people sometimes the worst. On the other hand, Trump, Steve Bannon and Michael Jackson always seemed to be a little off. I am not totally surprised that they are compromised.

One thing I really ask myself. Does this say a lot about the elites? Or does this say more about the rotten character of most average people? Does power really corrupt? Is there a causation between power, money, fame and questionable ethics and abusive behavior? Why are only some elites part of the Epstein class? Were they smart enough to know this will sooner or later come out? I mean people like Chomsky should have been able to anticipate that. Is this more the case there was an opportunity to visit this guy Epstein with the hope to get away with it. What was the motive? Were all of these people fascinated by abusing power? Or was it simply chic to spend time with him? I mean there are pictures of Bannon and Chomsky with Epstein. I mean the sympathy for groomers can seemingly bypass even the most heated political dividing line there ever were.

Is the story most men are monsters? And there are relatively speaking at least some women who willingly participate in child abuse. Why was Epstein so popular? Because child abuse is the most taboo thing that remains and people who have everything also want to cross that boundary? Or would the average Joe and Jane also participate in that if they had the chance? I am not sure whether that's solely an elite thing is. Some weeks ago I started listening to wifiskeleton. An artist who committed suicide. And it turned out he was a groomer. The most popular song Nope it's already too late I already died has a ridiculous line (the Nice line is pretty cool though).

Next day, I'm walkin' the road
Kickin' rocks, it's my fault
My life's the worst story told
I'll be this way 'til I'm old
I rip a page out the book
I'm just so misunderstood
I always think about her
And when my life felt good

This I am so misunderstood is such a lame excuse there are hard evidence for his misbehavior. In the moment of fame he chatted with minor fans and pressured them to send nudes and stuff like that. Though, after his death many people don't care anymore about the allegations. It gives me the feeling if people get the opportunity for abusing their power they will do it. And many people don't actually have power. Child abuse is often not only done by pedocriminals for sexual reasons it is also simply an act of feeling superior to someone who cannot defend him or herself.

People like Nick Fuentes even defend Epstein. It is his new edgy take. He claims Epstein wasn't even a pedophile because the victims were teenagers. (but still minors)

I think it is a too simply answer that only the elites were morally corrupt. There is a lot of child abuse happening even in ordinary families where you would not expect it. For me it shows rather problematic traits of many people. Under certain circumstances they act on them. Does this vice versa imply the people in power who don't abuse it were extremely virtuous? I don't think so. They probably abuse power in a less obvious way. Because honestly that this comes out eventually doesn't seem that unlikely.
On the other hand, if we say this behavior was simply contingent on external factors one would also absolve the criminals from their responsibility. This is why this cannot be the full and last conclusion.

What do you think? I am not entirely sure what to conclude...

Every time more stuff about Epstein comes out I'm reminded of how much humanity is a stain on this earth. If our bad is this bad then is our good even important to this conversation? I cannot see substantial good until all of humanity is gone, because no matter how much good we do and no matter how much we do to prevent the sick shit from happening, it will come back. You cannot kill humanity's evil, only humanity.

 

[rainatthebusstop]

I think the grand takeaway here is that people who are powerful and influential will do anything and indulge in any taboo just because they can. Just because they're above the plebians.
Never trust the mega wealthy

 

[vyvanceandvodka]

Humans are evil.

 

[Dejected 55]

I think the grand takeaway here is that people who are powerful and influential will do anything and indulge in any taboo just because they can. Just because they're above the plebians.
Never trust the mega wealthy

That's a reasonable observation... but it isn't enough. The truth, sadly as I've said elsewhere, is that... the wealthy and powerful seem to be worse because they have the means and opportunity to be worse than the rest of us. You have to look no farther than the people willing to help with the cover up, look the other way, or defend their side and only want to chase after the "other" side... to see how there are a surprising number of non-wealthy and non-powerful people who are fine with this sort of thing, and wish they were powerful enough to get away with it too.

IF it was just the handful of powerful people in the world doing this horrible shit, there wouldn't be nearly as many victims as there always are.

 

[doomedbynarrative]

As horrible as it sounds, most of the stuff that these rich assholes have done to women and children is not new. Not by a long shot. It's been done before all throughout human history. Literally nothing new under the sun. In every age, someone somewhere will do this kind of shit and get away with it.

Humans can be very good and they can also be very evil. These loathsome people have chosen to be evil.

 

[iwanttodie019]

Humans are evil.

hey ,the humans i grew up around(my family members,i am talking about)were never bad to be.So,I guess I am lucky with regards to the kind of family i have got

hey ,the humans i grew up around(my family members,i am talking about)were never bad to be.So,I guess I am lucky with regards to the kind of family i have got

*me not be

So many things... don't know where to start. I'll start with the worst part and work from there I guess.

First up... a lot of people don't seem to really know what a pedophile is, so let's start there. A pedophile is an adult who is attracted to young people BECAUSE they look young. A true pedophile historically discards (read into that however you wish because it can be horrible) victims once they reach mid-teens, especially ones that look more like adults. Don't get me wrong... sexualizing and abusing and all the things are HORRIBLE to do to any person for any reason, and especially so for underage people and/or people who do not consent. I'm NOT defending anything. But... there is a difference between the perversion of men who like sex with 15 year old girls because they look like young adults VS the men who like to have sex with 6-12 year old girls or boys because they like when kids are kids and look very young. VERY different perversions in play, all horrible, and probably all deserve the exact same punishment... no defending any of it... All I'm saying is, people misuse the words or don't understand them and it blurs the lines.

Why do the labels matter? A perverted man who likes 15 year old girls because they are young, impressionable, naive, can be groomed, etc. BUT he likes them because they look like a young woman... *that* dude is going to deny being a pedophile, and he'd be right, but it gives him a foothold that he does not at all deserve to defend how he isn't a horrible pedophile like those other guys so what he is doing is "ok" somehow. Don't give them the luxury of any chance to weasel out of things.

That out of the way...

I've said before, I'm afraid a LOT more people are perverted than any of us would like to know. It's just most people don't have the resources or opportunity or courage to commit their perversions. So, we see this kind of shit mostly with the rich and powerful because they are in the best position to get away with it. Plain and simple. Now, this doesn't mean all rich and powerful are horrible. I'm just saying the money and power doesn't so much corrupt people as it reveals them. A dude who never has the resources or opportunity appears to not be a pervert because he can't do what he wants and it never manifests... but, give that man power and resources and opportunity or at least 1 or 2 of the three... and watch (sadly) what happens. Meanwhile, truly good people don't use their money and power to do the horrible shit because they never wanted to in the first place.

Unfortunately, the way our society is constructed... the perverted and corrupt people are more incentivized to succeed, are more rewarded for out-of-bounds behavior to get their power and money, and are generally more likely to get that power and money. Somehow our society doesn't make it easy for good-natured people to really thrive. It can happen, sure... but they are generally outnumbered. Maybe in part because good-natured people are outnumbered in society at all levels? Who knows.

Then you have the defenders, apologizers, and enablers... there are a lot of people who defend the bad because they wish to have that ability so they want to not only support it but hope by doing so they will get noticed and allowed into the special horrible club. Then there are the people who don't care or think rich/powerful people deserve this and some people deserve to be victims.

Randomly... consider how many people who condemn rape (rightfully so) are gleeful at the idea of someone in prison being raped as a punishment. Which means on some level they are okay with rape as long as it happens to someone they don't like... and, worse... if a bad dude is getting raped in prison and you think that's deserved... consider that you are cheering the person who is doing the rape and is enjoying that activity... so that's just a weird headspace for me. I condemn rape, and I think rapists need to be punished harsher than they ever are and should be separated from general society... for serial rapists and especially child molestors, I'm fine with the death penalty too. But you're never going to convince me that rapists should be raped as punishment, thereby allowing other people to rape with impunity because you're okay with the victim suffering in that case because he did that to others.

The world is kind of just fucked between all the people who do the horrible and all the people who support them and all the two-faced people who condemn horrible if they dislike the person but cheer it if they like them... there's little room for the decent people to navigate this world... and as I began with, I don't think the adage of "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is entirely apt because it assumes people are better than they are. I think power gives you the chance to be your true self, and if your true self is good then you will do good with your power, but if you are bad you will do horrible... and people will think it is because you were corrupted by power, when you just finally got the chance to do the shit you always wanted to do anyway.

hey bud i am not perverted

 

[dragon.//]

The breadth and depth of evil human behavior on this planet is unconscionable. We are a failed experiment and shouldn't exist.

Agreed

 

[N Seeker]

So many things... don't know where to start. I'll start with the worst part and work from there I guess.

First up... a lot of people don't seem to really know what a pedophile is, so let's start there. A pedophile is an adult who is attracted to young people BECAUSE they look young. A true pedophile historically discards (read into that however you wish because it can be horrible) victims once they reach mid-teens, especially ones that look more like adults. Don't get me wrong... sexualizing and abusing and all the things are HORRIBLE to do to any person for any reason, and especially so for underage people and/or people who do not consent. I'm NOT defending anything. But... there is a difference between the perversion of men who like sex with 15 year old girls because they look like young adults VS the men who like to have sex with 6-12 year old girls or boys because they like when kids are kids and look very young. VERY different perversions in play, all horrible, and probably all deserve the exact same punishment... no defending any of it... All I'm saying is, people misuse the words or don't understand them and it blurs the lines.

Good point. However, it is important to acknowledge that many pedophiles like children but don't abuse them. Most people who like adults (and by extension teens who look like adults), do not seek teen partners, and a similar thing applies to pedophiles who don't seek child partners. I'm sorry if this is controversial or some people might feel uncomfortable when reading this, but it is important to recognize this so that they can safely seek help should they ever need it.

I've said before, I'm afraid a LOT more people are perverted than any of us would like to know. It's just most people don't have the resources or opportunity or courage to commit their perversions. So, we see this kind of shit mostly with the rich and powerful because they are in the best position to get away with it. Plain and simple. Now, this doesn't mean all rich and powerful are horrible. I'm just saying the money and power doesn't so much corrupt people as it reveals them. A dude who never has the resources or opportunity appears to not be a pervert because he can't do what he wants and it never manifests... but, give that man power and resources and opportunity or at least 1 or 2 of the three... and watch (sadly) what happens. Meanwhile, truly good people don't use their money and power to do the horrible shit because they never wanted to in the first place.

Corrupt, reveal, what's the difference? I don't think there is a "true self" that would come to light in the adequate circumstances. There are just different possible worlds. In some of these you are one way, in others you are some other way. That's why we must build a better world together: we have the capacity to be our best selves given the right conditions. That's why isolation is killing us: we need each other to be our best selves. I think no one should have the power to get away with Epstein-type crimes. And if we reach such a society, why should we worry about "human nature" and how bad it is?

 

[Forever Sleep]

I don't think that all elites are corrupt paedophiles but, if they are borderline shady, I think they are better placed to get away with it for longer. Not just in terms of paedophilia but sexual harassment, exploiting others and generally being awful to those around them.

I'm not sure where it comes from initially. I don't think it's necessarily power or money that corrupts though. I imagine it's partly the culture they were raised in. Were they raised to respect other people? How were their ideas on relationships and sex formed? It can of course transpire that they were abused themselves. It sometimes seems to happen that they then continue to abuse others.

But, to a lesser extent, I've known guys who were complete players. To the extent they suspected they had left women pregnant and cut all contact. It sounded as if their father had been the same way though. So- who were these people's role models? Did they have role models either? It's not necessarily that generations are all the same but, I suspect it can affect things.

I suppose people like that will always exist- in all walks of life. The more depressing part for me is that they are enabled by others to act in that way and get away with it for as long as they do. Especially if they are wealthy/ powerful. That's what I find so disgusting. That society is so corrupt that it allows individuals like that to thrive.

I actually feel maybe even more distressed at the actions of Ghislain Maxwell. I suppose it could be argued that she wouldn't have behaved like she did if Epstein didn't encourage her to. But still, there's something even more horrific to my mind of a woman sacrificing and exploting other women- or, girls rather- children legally. I think I have this naive hope that women look out for each other.