what do you think of the thought: "Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional"?

[VivaldiBR]

Read it the other day. Some say "pain is inevitable on life, because sonner or later bad things will happen, but how you deal with it is optional. You can responde on a positive or a negative perspective.

 

[VIBRITANNIA]

well, they do have a point, but i also think that suffering isn't optional, in some cases. some people have been beaten down to the point where they literally cannot see things from a positive perspective.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It is not always true, but it's true for me that perspective and preference can have an impact on whether or not I suffer, and if I do, to what degree, and how reslient I am in recovering from it.

Here's a passage from the book The Practicing Stoic that addresses this and has helped me:

"Stoics avoid adversity in the ways that anyone of sense would. But sometimes it comes regardless, and then the Stoic goal is to see adversity rightly and not let one's peace of mind be destroyed by its arrival. Indeed, the aim of the Stoic is something more: to accept reversal without shock and to make it grist for the creating of greater things. Nobody wants hardship in any particular case, but it is a necessary element in the formation of worhty people and worthy achievements that, in the long run, we do want. Stoics seek the value in whatever happens.

"Adversity...is both an external that we misjudge and a resource that might be put to use...[W]e don't like adversity -- that's mostly what it means for somthing to be adversity -- for the same reason that we misjudge many other externals: we view them with psychological parochialism, defining size and value and better and worse in terms of our immediate wishes and convenience. Stepping away from the wishes and convenience allows adversity to be seen as it is -- as often less monstrous than it looks when it first comes, as sometimes producing important benefits, and in any event as inevitable."

 

[schopenh]

Pain and suffering seems like a false dichotomy

 

[Xocoyotziin]

I think you need to have the capacity to choose the perspective you take before you can make the choice. What capacity any one person has for dealing with any given situation by changing their perspective will be based on their own natural tendencies and prior life experiences.

I guess what I mean is, it's not always your choice whether or not you have a choice, but it can be because prior choices may have enabled a greater breadth of choices in the present. But when you have a choice you have a choice, so it's important to be aware of when you're ignoring choices, and how your choices now will affect your ability to make choices later? Hope I'm not talking nonsense lol but it makes sense to me.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

How you deal with suffering may be optional, but it's not always within your power to alleviate suffering, and the harsh reality is that sometimes you can attempt to help yourself or someone else and make things orders of magnitude worse.
I believe suffering can in fact teach us many things of value, up to a point.
Beyond that point, suffering becomes worthless...
"There is only one thing that flogging teaches a man: how to turn his back."
If this wan't the case, then why are any of us here on this site?

 

[Sk1n1M1n]

It's a load of garbage giving the impression that a depressed person just has to think positive to change their situation.
It's no bad than those stupid posts I see on Facebook

rearrange the word depression and you will get I pressed on Bollocks giving the impression that we have to just move on.
Well rearrange these two words Lost Get.

neither do I want to hear about latest faddy stress relief technique or to be told that all I have too is enjoy my favourite comfort foods, watch a show I enjoy and I will feel better in ten minutes.

what if you've tried these 100000 times, don't they realise that most people with depression have anhedonia.

 

[k75]

Read it the other day. Some say "pain is inevitable on life, because sonner or later bad things will happen, but how you deal with it is optional. You can responde on a positive or a negative perspective.

It's technically true, but I think those are advanced skills you have to practice and learn. Not everyone knows how, and it's not easy.

I know all about reframing thoughts and perspective, but I really can't do it as an every day reaction. I can't choose to be positive or happy or not bothered. It just doesn't work like that. Some people just naturally can, and that's great. But we're all different with different coping skills and tolerances.

 

[Sk1n1M1n]

Reframing thoughts is load of dogs shit all it does is stops people thinking realistically about their situation and empathises that positive thinking is cure for everyone's depresssion and increases the stigma around depression that's it's solvable in a five minutes.

 

[262653]

Can't pain be optional too? Like piercing my finger with a needle. I'd do that if I were to think it will prove that pain can be optional. (I don't think that it will.) Or to prove to myself that I can take some pain, so I can feel good about myself, believing that I can tolerate some pain, which may be useful in situation where tolerating the lesser pain will prevent me from having to experience the greater pain...

And to always avoid suffering I'd probably have to be emotionally dead... I can't help but to feel myself as a complex cog that rubs onto zillions of other cogs with zillions of edges, and that the notion of free choice (choice without preference sounds inconcievable to me, if we would have no preferences, there would be no need to welcome or to avoid suffering) results from being unaware of or unable to see the bigger picture.

But anyway, how can we use the thought in the title to avoid pain and suffering?

Ed: Oh wait, it's the recovery forum. Now that changes things, doesn't it?

 

[k75]

Can't pain be optional too? Like piercing my finger with a needle. I'd do that if I were to think it will prove that pain can be optional. (I don't think that it will.) Or to prove to myself that I can take some pain, so I can feel good about myself, believing that I can tolerate some pain, which may be useful in situation where tolerating the lesser pain will prevent me from having to experience the greater pain...

And to always avoid suffering I'd probably have to be emotionally dead... I can't help but to feel myself as a complex cog that rubs onto zillions of other cogs with zillions of edges, and that the notion of free choice (choice without preference sounds inconcievable to me, if we would have no preferences, there would be no need to welcome or to avoid suffering) results from being unaware of or unable to see the bigger picture.

But anyway, how can we use the thought in the title to avoid pain and suffering?

Ed: Oh wait, it's the recovery forum. Now that changes things, doesn't it?

You're kind of proving the original statement with your example, I think. You can't decide pricking your finger isn't going to hurt. Therefore, pain isn't optional. But you can maybe condition yourself to not react to the pain.

 

[Worthless_nobody]

Yep I can totally control the fact I was born with asperger's I have bpd and lots of other mental issues with no cure and I can just totally control the way it makes me feel. I could totally control rape, trauma, abuse and the premature death of loved ones. Oh and I totally asked for chronic pain to where I feel 70 in my 20s, tinnitus, and crippling ibs and insomnia....

In short it's a bs dismissive quote probably said by someone who doesn't and will never understand.

 

[woxihuanni]

Can't pain be optional too? Like piercing my finger with a needle. I'd do that if I were to think it will prove that pain can be optional. (I don't think that it will.) Or to prove to myself that I can take some pain, so I can feel good about myself, believing that I can tolerate some pain, which may be useful in situation where tolerating the lesser pain will prevent me from having to experience the greater pain...

And to always avoid suffering I'd probably have to be emotionally dead... I can't help but to feel myself as a complex cog that rubs onto zillions of other cogs with zillions of edges, and that the notion of free choice (choice without preference sounds inconcievable to me, if we would have no preferences, there would be no need to welcome or to avoid suffering) results from being unaware of or unable to see the bigger picture.

But anyway, how can we use the thought in the title to avoid pain and suffering?

Ed: Oh wait, it's the recovery forum. Now that changes things, doesn't it?

Yes it often amounts to becoming dead, losing yourself in a way. What nobody tells you is, people who cry out against pain get a better outcome than those trying to transcend the pain. On that path, there is only more pain that you ultimately cannot transcend.

I have gone through life turning adversity into a chance to build better things. I don't advise it. Cry out. Break down. Don't carry burdens, nobody appreciates how much burden you have and how little you bend in context of it. They just assume it is your duty to bear more.

 

[BipolarGuy]

"Pain is inevitable but suffering is optional".

I think it's a rubbish quote, and not even true.

It's basically saying that you can't help the things that happen to you but you can control how you react to them.

While this may be partly true, I don't think this takes into account how our lives are influenced by external forces and not just by our own thoughts and personality.

 

[262653]

You're kind of proving the original statement with your example, I think. You can't decide pricking your finger isn't going to hurt. Therefore, pain isn't optional. But you can maybe condition yourself to not react to the pain.

I think that I've failed to disprove the first part of the original statement. And I don't even know to define suffering, but I can't imagine that experiencing suffering is possible without emotions. But how can humans not have emotions? There are still feelings in the body, aren't there?..

Yes it often amounts to becoming dead, losing yourself in a way. What nobody tells you is, people who cry out against pain get a better outcome than those trying to transcend the pain. On that path, there is only more pain that you ultimately cannot transcend.

I have gone through life turning adversity into a chance to build better things. I don't advise it. Cry out. Break down. Don't carry burdens, nobody appreciates how much burden you have and how little you bend in context of it. They just assume it is your duty to bear more.

Yeah, I do think that crying out can be... beneficial to survival at least. Occasionally it also does make me feel better... I'm not sure if my presence in this section of the forum is appropriate. I do want to feel better but I employ strategies that are... not exactly compatible with the spirit of this section maybe, and I'm restraining myself enough as it is. But I do think that your advice makes sense.

 

[woxihuanni]

I think that I've failed to disprove the first part of the original statement. And I don't even know to define suffering, but I can't imagine that experiencing suffering is possible without emotions. But how can humans not have emotions? There are still feelings in the body, aren't there?..


Yeah, I do think that crying out can be... beneficial to survival at least. Occasionally it also does make me feel better... I'm not sure if my presence in this section of the forum is appropriate. I do want to feel better but I employ strategies that are... not exactly compatible with the spirit of this section maybe, and I'm restraining myself enough as it is. But I do think that your advice makes sense.

I wish you relief, it is OK to seek it in ways that works for you. We cannot be ground down to replicas with one right way out.

 

[Sk1n1M1n]

I think it's pretty obvious how people are gonna react when something happens to them, we aren't suddenly gonna think to ourselves oh well that's a bit silly/stupid and leave it that, we all have feelings and emotions, we have a right to feel how we feel.

Like during my breakdown, did I consciously think to myself, "oh well that doesn't matter" and react a bit sad n fed up for ten minutes. "No, because a lot was going non for me at the time, my mum had lost her brother to cancer and her best friend Steve to suicide, plus it was start the lockdown and I had lots of assignments get in.
But it's mostly down to human behaviour, we often don't worry about a few thoughts here and there, but when suffering has less to lack of sleep, lack of food, change in habits. That's when the doctors start worrying about us and our friends and family.

For example, a lack of sleep can lead to hallucinations if combined with stress.

 

[Sensei]

You can put your hand on a hot stove and learn how to cope with the pain. The tricky part is that you have to learn this while suffering intense pain.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Spoiler: Long comment

Some say "pain is inevitable on life, because sonner or later bad things will happen, but how you deal with it is optional. You can responde on a positive or a negative perspective."

You can also respond to it with a neutral perspective and observe rather than get totally hooked into the experience of pain.

It is possible to say, "This is happening, and this is how I feel about it. I disprefer this experience, but it is happening."

Writing from my heart, but of course not required reading...

For all the rah-rah about mindfulness that makes it seem like positive thinking and getting emotionally high, the above statement is actually what it is. It's very mundane. I've been doing it for years and it didn't transform me into a blissful being. I didn't keep doing it because it was like a drug, but to become present and, when I was present, to not suffer for it, instead to look at the suffering head-on, and dismepower it as much as I could. (@k75, I agree that some people may have it naturally to some degree, but it is advanced stuff. Reading about it and experiencing it is different. And I acknowledge I had it naturally in me to pursue it.)

Practicing this acceptance and awareness has indeed eased my suffering when I have a painful experience, and helped me to recover better from pain and suffering, because I don't get so taken over by the experience that it takes my very self over, becomes an unwanted part of me, and remains an unwanted part of me.

Spoiler: TW Non-graphic experiences of rape

I have been raped twice. The first time, I ignored red flags, trusted someone unworthy of trust, ended up being drugged, and was internally thrown off balance by the experience. The second time, I was conscious for it, and it was inescapable and unavoidable. I made a point to stay aware the whole time and to not lose myself, to be present even though it I knew it was going to suck, and it did. I stayed assertive, I made it clear I was not consenting, and I did not give him the satisfaction of a high emotional response that he was seeking. Because of that stance, it was painful to my spirit, but my spirit stayed present and was not tortured nor submitted to him as he wished. He did not take me away from myself, and he did not become a part of myself. I hate both of the rapists, and I have compassion for how fucked up they both are; they do not not live freely just because they harm others free of impunity. In some ways, I have far more freedoms than they do because I am not suffering as I am certain they do, but this is not the moment for analyzing them.

So as it relates to the thread title, the second painful experience was inevitable, and I did experience suffering, but I had some agency to determine the degree of suffering during and after, and I still work with it when it needs attention so that I do not lose any of myself to that experience.

I was born with hereditary mental health challenges that strongly impacted my moods and percpetions. I was abused throughout childhood and at times in adulthood. I have been worthy of and sometimes even entitled to certain opportunities, and had some of them denied me, or given and then yanked from me, and made to financially pay for things I was entitled to by law or by legal contract. Since childhood, I never stopped seeking answers and freedom from what harmed and hurt me. That is not an idictment on anyone who is not the same way, but an indictment against saying the quotes in the title and OP are total bullshit and/or are mere platitudes and/or impossible.

Sometimes the help I pursued did some help, sometimes it harmed. But I did gain various tools, and I continued to use them, and in the process I gained some very real recovery, I gained ownership of my self, I gained self-respect, I gained presence, balance and emotional equanimity. Sometimes I can't control that I may end up taking some shit, but I stand up to it. I may fall down after to recover, but I do recover, and I learn from it, and my balance gets even better, like practicing a martial art and learning how to take hits and recover.

Sometimes I still lose my shit, but now I lose just a bit of it, which causes less life problems, and I recover quickly, review what happened, learn from the experience, and lose less shit the next time something encourages me to lose it. I fucking worked for that, over the course of years, through many experiences, many tools. Yes, I cry and mourn, feel at times overwhelmed by the hopelessness of cultures and humanity, and yes, I am vulnerable as every human is, but I no longer am a child inside taking control of all my perceptions going waaaaah it's not fair, waaaaah I should have it better than I do, waaaaaah they're killing me and I can't do anything, as if my mother were still making me submit to her control and beatings. Now I'm an aware adult and it's, "Some things are going to suck. I don't deserve them. But I can stand strong through them, and learn all I can to better prepare and strengthen me for the next time something sucks. I may not always win, but I want to be worthy of it, so I better own my shit and work with it and on it the best I can." When I've hit the limit of what I can handle in spite of my skills, I'll be gone. I've already tried but didn't succeed, and I have no shame in that. I am worthy of success and overcoming, it's just not happening, at least not externally, and for now I'm still here, experiencing pain and abuse, and working with my experience while I'm still stuck here. It could be worse. I could be in a war zone or a refugee camp or be arrested, imprisoned and tortured as a political prisoner. I am not grateful it's bad, but I am grateful it's not worse. I wasn't born in a culture where I could have been sold as a child slave, I wasn't born into extreme poverty, etc. Folks on here, we have access to internet and electronic devices. Whoever of us you see as having the worst experience, my god, there is so much worse in the world. I'm not shaming you, I'm not at all negating or minimizing your experience nor mine. It's that sometimes the weight of suffering is lightened even just a little when compared to something heavier. It's a cognitive tool, not a weapon.

If you did not find answers, did not have any opportunities, were not born with anything that pushes you even a tiny bit to try to change your emotional course, and in reading this, perceive my success as pointing down at you and casting aspersions on you, that is your experience but not at all what this comment was about. By speaking my experience of finding empowerment that does not at the same time disempower others, I am saying there is truth in the quoted statement for some, that there was truth in it for me, and that my experience of it is far from platitudinous and blind.

 

[k75]

(@k75, I agree that some people may have it naturally to some degree, but it is advanced stuff. Reading about it and experiencing it is different. And I acknowledge I had it naturally in me to pursue it.)

My best friend is one of those people. He's just so... I don't even know how to put it into words. Mentally healthy. He just naturally knows how to cope with everything. He feels and reacts, but appropriately. He will never need therapy, no matter what happens. Which I guess is a really lucky thing, because he's stuck with an overwhelmed, suicidal stress tornado like me.

I can't seem to do it. The more coping skills I learn, the less I seem to have. CBT has not done anything for me, and what we've tried of DBT is about the same.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

If I had a PhD in math I could probably express this concept algebraically, but at some point, given enough pain, I think these philosophical perspectives just get tossed right out the window.

 

[MrBlue]

You could argue that everyone on this site, whether they are deciding to ctb or not, have decided against suffering. Plus I thought to experience something bad, or to tolerate something, is the actual definition of suffering, so to be in pain is synonymous with suffering. I could be wrong though.