U

Unicorncorn21

Member
Apr 25, 2020
8
I have been an atheist for almost my entire life and this is a very puzzling question for me.

The big bang happened because it's what the laws of physics and chemistry dictate but I don't understand what's the reason why there even needs to be a case where the big bang needs to happen. Why does the empty void of space even need to exist? What's the point of it?

Think about it. The only things that benefit from it are happy humans and some smarter animals. Simpler animals and non-sentient things can't get anything about existing because they don't experience happiness. I don't think it's inherently necessary for anything to exist so I'm wondering what's the reason for us observing the opposite happening.
 
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TheQ22

Enlightened
Aug 17, 2020
1,097
I think we try to work out a point so we can create a context for it, but really I don't think there is any point, it just is. It's a quirk of nature that we've been born into for a short time before we return to the void.
 
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Deleted member 1465

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Jul 31, 2018
6,914
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
Want to answer this @Wayfaerer? lol.
 
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RottenDeer

RottenDeer

Rotten to the core.
Feb 29, 2020
157
For me, there's no reason in anything. It was simply coincidence that we started to exist.
 
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Brick In The Wall

Brick In The Wall

2M Or Not 2B.
Oct 30, 2019
25,158
Because God's a comedian and he thought he'd create the best joke ever.
 
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banned noob

Member
Sep 26, 2020
14
Well, maybe I could butt in with a few suggestions. Certain subjects in philosophy which currently appeal to me are: eliminativism, panpsychism, the hard problem of consciousness, and solipsism.

I always fumble when I try to explain my understanding of any of these, and I'm a little lazy on my reading and research, but look into them if you're interested in approaching life from the "inwards" model (consciousness) rather than the "outwards" model (the universe, physicalism, matter/objects/laws of physics). I like to think that the universe and the mind are different approaches which apply as preferences to people when it comes to understanding existence and what to believe. You don't have to acknowledge that either exist. The universe and consciousness don't need to exist as far as I'm concerned, and as a skeptic by default I don't just assume an inherent truth in either. Some people are introverts, some are extroverts, and I think that analogy applies to the inner/outer existence idea I explained.

I suggest that the meaning or purpose of your existence is up to you. Start with solipsism. All you know and all you experience is your own life from your own perception. All information you receive from outside of yourself is only exactly the way it is within your own experience. Whoever other people are, whatever other stuff is, might as well be completely different from how you perceive and understand it. Your experience of everything you see and all you are aware of and the information you have learned in considering yourself and your place in the world, is unique to you and separate from the "truth" of any entity that could have its own separate free will and experiences you are not aware of and do not know about. When a tree falls in the forest and you are not around to hear it, it does not make a sound, because if you are not in the forest, it does not even exist, according to your first hand experience. It can only exist indirectly as a memory or recall of information you've learned about forests, in general or of a particular one you've been in. When you're best friend isn't in the room with you, he doesn't exist. That kind of thing is how I understand solipsism in a nutshell. There's only you, because you are all you can be aware of and experience. "Existence" and "Everything" as you know it are just defined by you.

Anyway, I know this is a lot of stuff coming out of me and it's not a simple answer to your question in any way. I like to think that nothing is in any way the way it seems. I would at least like, personally, for everything to be completely different. Forget all color deriving from light, black/white, or blue/yellow/red (or brown). How about "Wux"? That's a new color. Doesn't have anything to do with the others. Let's live in a world with that. Maybe Wux would make me a completely different person (which sometimes, when it comes to enjoying life or having hope that I will be happy and free and fearless, I think is what it would take - not being me in any way; very fatalistic and I ought not indulge the idea...)

I veered away from science and materialism because I thought it was causing me depression and a hopeless, pessimist attitude. To me it was slavery. The laws of physics and the universe being set to behave only a certain way, like an inherent principle to existence not at all subject to compromise, is the only way things can be. It's one program, forever and ever. Objects in motion doing the only thing they can do - obey "God's" law. And why would God create that way, and only that way? Because there is no other way? There can not be nothingness or chaos? They are inconceivable because surely with mathematics and physics, all can be calculated, whatever we consider "chaos" is only beyond our current calculations, because numbers and systems are massively complex and beyond our collective efforts so far. But it's all predictable. Before the big bang, there was dark matter, no? I'm a total noob at dark matter, but isn't it about learning what properties constitute empty space? If empty space was all there was before the Big Bang I guess.

Being all about myself, my awareness and my experience (I'm not going to Mars, Andromeda, or Saturn anytime soon, so I don't really care about learning about them), I like to learn about consciousness, and how it all comes together, is generated, and experienced by "me", seemingly a single entity. Do each of my cells experience consciousness at a sort of sub-level? Why do I seem to experience myself as "the captain" or the one in the driver's seat, with my "free will" and all, making all of my decisions? (See determinism if your skeptical about free will). The unity of the self can be baffling too. Physically, it's something like, every 7 years, every cell in your body has completely replaced itself and so you are not made of any exact material you were 7 years prior. Does that make you a different person? (I don't know if it's 7 for sure.)

Well, there's plenty to unpack here, and I know it's way more than a nutshell, but that's sort of my opening statement of what I've come to terms with, thinking all my thoughts and experiencing myself over the last several years. My main advice to you would be: Forget the universe. Forget science (unless you're into it and it suits you). Just do you. Focus on how you feel. What are your emotions? Don't give too much credit to logic, common sense or psychology studies. How you experience and choose to be you is more important than what any research indicates. Listen to your heart and love yourself.
 
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TheQ22

Enlightened
Aug 17, 2020
1,097
So basically all I can know to exist is myself (solipsism), and know that thanks to my emotionally manipulative and abusive wife i now at 50 no longer have a home, or any money and covid has fucked my income so I don't have one.

So by focusing on me and me being all I know to exist, I can work out that my life is shit and fucked and pretty much over?

So I might as well end it?

Is that the point PlanetStarcock?
 
E

esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
That was interesting.
the "inwards" model (consciousness) rather than the "outwards" model (the universe, physicalism, matter/objects/laws of physics)
Do you know about the thoughts of Bohm on consciousness and the pribram-bohm hypothesis? (implicate order, explicate order, holomovement etc)
Do each of my cells experience consciousness at a sort of sub-level?
Yes, possibly, from what I've looked into. Consciousness could go very deep, maybe located within microtubules in neurons and associated with quantum processes (r. penrose), maybe at a much deeper level, beneath the sub-atomic right down to planck-length spaces (10-33cm, trillions could fit in an atom), which could be a sort of threshold beneath which a consciousness-reality unfolds to become spacetime and matter via a fourier transform equation (bohm).
Before the big bang, there was dark matter, no?
I'm not sure about this. I don't think we currently have any experimental data about what might have existed prior to the big bang.
I think dark matter is a form of energy which isn't part of the electromagnetic field, but which constitutes a large part of the matter in the universe, and which hasn't actually been observed. But it's needed to explain why the universe is expanding the way it is, and why galaxies don't fly apart etc.
The unity of the self can be baffling too
Yes. There doesn't seem to be anything which is permanent and which could be the locus of the self. I think the ship of theseus thought experiment is a good way to start thinking about it, at least to see where intuitions lie.
Why do I seem to experience myself as "the captain" or the one in the driver's seat, with my "free will" and all, making all of my decisions?
Could this be a sort of cognitive illusion or deception? Some experiments using mri and signals and button pressing seem to show that the areas of the brain associated with decision making light up seconds before the person consciously makes a choice for one thing rather than another. Does this show that the seemingly free choice was actually unconsciously determined by the brain beforehand, so not free? I'm not actually sure, it could only signify a neural correlate which may not imply causation. And the 'choices' in these experiments were between quite trivial things like either tea or coffee.
So tell us nothing about the 'freedom' of more complex and long-term decisions.

However I still find it hard to understand how libertarian free will could fit into a deterministic or even indeterministic (quantum level) universe.
I'm not sure much sense can be made of it on a naturalistic picture where only physical laws count.
Maybe one way of approaching the issue is through first understanding consciousness.
 
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Kyrok

Kyrok

Paragon
Nov 6, 2018
970
Oscillating Universe governed by laws including some which organize matter into complex structures.

There is no "why.". The universe just is. It has always been. It will always be.
 
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TheQ22

Enlightened
Aug 17, 2020
1,097
Listen to your heart and love yourself are meaningless platitudes.
 
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banned noob

Member
Sep 26, 2020
14
But what if you can't love yourself and your heart is telling you to kill yourself?
Thank you for your reply worried_to_death. You gave me many subjects I had not heard of to look into. I never knew about plank units, pribram-bohm hypothesis, or ship of theseus thought experiment. Mental stimulation I think is a key to staying out of sloth, depression and boredom. It always helps to be interested in something.

I am choosing not to give any specific advice to your second post. That you just need to decide for yourself I think.
 
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Green Destiny

Green Destiny

Life isn't worth the trouble.
Nov 16, 2019
862
Simple evolution is all there is to it. That's my take at least.
 
Wayfaerer

Wayfaerer

JFMSUF
Aug 21, 2019
1,938
Just because. That's all there is to it.
 
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Deleted member 1465

_
Jul 31, 2018
6,914
the "inwards" model (consciousness) rather than the "outwards" model (the universe, physicalism, matter/objects/laws of physics).
These are not mutually exclusive in reality, only in the limited way we perceive things. This can be seen in the way physics has reinterpreted matter & energy in recent years; how the laws for the very tiny bits appear to operate differently to things on a macroscopically observable scale. I would suspect that the principles are the same, it's just our ways of observing things at different levels is different by their very nature.
There are in fact stark parallels between many seemingly opposed ways of looking at things. Eastern philosophies have a lot in common with concepts in cutting edge physics and inwards models of consciousness, sometimes represented by metaphysical frameworks, are just another way of representing deterministic illustrations in a more symbolic fashion that appeals to certain ways of thinking.
For example...
Many ancient societies intuitively understood things via observation, without knowing how they actually worked (at least, we make this assumption based on archaeological remains and our interpretation of them). There are things we have only discovered recently through science that the ancient peoples probably knew already. For them the language may have been 'magic' and 'gods' but some of the principles would probably have held true to things that we can today demonstrate to be true by scientific observation.
In fact, certain inwards models of existence are appealing precisely because they have a consistent and practical way of explaining reality, it's just that it's all based on circumstantial evidence rather than factual proof.
I personally see no contradiction for example for the devout Christian physicist attempting to understand how space-time is constructed of tiny pieces of matter/energy woven together by entanglement. Two different ways of explaining the same thing.
There is a difference between explaining how things exist and trying to find a way to understand why they exist. The former should theoretically be explainable. The latter, arguably, never can be. Otherwise faith wouldn't exist either.
 
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Xocoyotziin

Xocoyotziin

Scorpion
Sep 5, 2020
402
Perpetual avoidance of the truth of nonexistence. God is scared and disguises its fear through an unfathomably complex number of layers. Don't smite me bro.
 
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netrezven

Mage
Dec 13, 2018
515
Let's say our world is created and owned by someone from another wolrd. That can explain our existense, but theirs? I actually don't think that there should even be a reason for such a thing like existense. Cause and effect - possible, but reason - not necessary at all.
 
kane

kane

Student
Jun 26, 2020
171
What do ants in an ant farm think is the reason why their world exists? Humans have greater capacity to speculate and reason, but why should we have any ability to accurately guess at things completely outside anything we experience? And no explanation could ever be satisfying. Why the laws of physics? Or why 'God'? Why an infinite regress with no beginning? Sooner or later you hit a 'just because'.

Which is a frustrating thing for a smart ape to hear. How are you supposed to appropriately adapt to your existential circumstances if you can't ever be certain what they are? Will you be eternally rewarded for self-sacrificing behavior, or are you better off limiting your own suffering?
And if the human condition is effectively defined by uncertainty, is there even an appropriate response to that?

We must have answers. So pragmatism effectively demands we adopt a view that appeals to our inherent individual biases, and just assume.

Soooo...

Our world is part of an infinite chain of creation. Worlds within worlds within worlds. Like a never-ending Matryoshka doll. Within some of these worlds, some beings develop the ability to create new worlds (through computers, for example), and so the cycle continues. Unfortunately, our particular world was created by a being who did not intend or notice the life within it, or did not believe it truly suffered, or did not care. Maybe they just designed the experiment to see what would happen. And so we are where we are.

That's the story that appeals most to my biases. It has about as much chance of being accurate as the assumptions of an ant farm about the reasons behind their home. Is there anyone on the other side of the glass? How could we possibly know?
 
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Coffeandamug

Words are quite useless, and so am I.
Oct 22, 2020
154
Well, the problem with this question is that if you don't settle down with "simplistic" answers (for exemple; "because god wants us to be here" or "there is no meaning at all and everything is meaningless") you are probably not going to find a satisfactory answer. As people here have pointed out, philosophy has tried to answer this and, at least how I see it, there is no satisfactory answer. Any satisfactory answer would probably not be in ordinary language anyway, as language, even mathematics, offers just a limited description of the world. That is... if there is a "world" at all... in short; there is so much, so much, so much, so much that has to be answered before we can even formulate questions like "what is the reason/meaning for our existence ?" properly. So my answer is; sorry... humanity will have to work a lot more to answer questions like this one. That is, if questions like these are even "answerable" or even exist... they can be just "missinterpretations" of reality by our brain, the thing is, there is currently no consistent way of truly understanding these problems.
 
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ARW3N

ARW3N

Melancholia
Dec 25, 2019
396
I know this sounds harsh but the universe doesn't give a damn about our existence just as it didn't give a damn about the dinosaurs being wiped out by an asteroid.
 
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esse_est_percipi

Enlightened
Jul 14, 2020
1,747
I conform to the "Egg Theory".
Do you really or it that just a semi-humorous comment?
And no explanation could ever be satisfying. Why the laws of physics? Or why 'God'? Why an infinite regress with no beginning? Sooner or later you hit a 'just because'.
yes, this is a good point.
I don't understand why people think that immortality or a soul surviving after death is somehow an 'answer' to the problem of existence.
The problem is just pushed a stage further.
Reminds me of this wittgenstein quote:

"The temporal immortality of the soul, that is to say, its eternal survival after death, is not only in no way guaranteed, but this assumption in the first place will not do for us what we always tried to make it do. Is a riddle solved by the fact that I survive forever? Is this eternal life not as enigmatic as our present one? The solution of the riddle of life in space and time lies outside space and time."
 
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Deleted member 1465

_
Jul 31, 2018
6,914
I always quote the Guide, but I still find it ironic that people look for 'an answer.' What does that even mean? What's the actual question?*
What I think people really want is a purpose and to be happy and they think an explanation of 'why' will give them that.
I don't personally reckon it would, I think it would just confuse the fuck out of them even more.
Many people find it inconceivable that we have to go through all this shit for no reason, therefore there must be a reason, otherwise it's all pointless. I've heard people say that sort of thing many times. I don't know how to respond to that logic, I don't even think there is a response.

*As ever, answers on a pumpkin to: Mr A. Underscore, The Bunker, 1 Crotch Crescent, Dystopia IP1 1IP. I'll send you a pumpkin pie if you get it right. :pfff:
 
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Sensei

Sensei

剣道家
Nov 4, 2019
6,336
Great are the stars, and man is of no account to them.
 
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