Discussion What do you think about Antinatalism?

[_Minsk]

The amount of suffering during the last months has been unbearable. I have been watching a few videos from people who explain why they have become a part of the antinatalist community.

Tbh I wish more people would reconsider their view on getting children in this world.

Maybe i have become a bit extreme in my views during the lock down but i can't understand how people still want to put a sentient being into this cruel world.. i find it to be extremely egoistic, maybe I'm wrong, but just look at this world.. I just cant understand why people would put a soul/or not existent being, who is free of pain and worries, into this cruel world.. sorry if im too pessimistic, just had a few drinks and been isolated for a while, hope i wont regret posting it x3:/

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

I would consider myself one, but I don't really believe in morals or ethics for practical reasons.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I totally get it, but I think that much like eugenics, antinatalism should never be pursued to its logical conclusion.

All life is inherently toxic to each other, even in some symbiotic relationships one species is counting on the other to die. If humans stopped breeding there'd be nothing to stop another intelligent species from eventually rising up and potentially being even worse than humans are, which they would likely need to be in order to survive in the world we'd leave behind.

Creating laws or licenses that would restrict child making would just lead to creating an illegal black market or certain types of children being favored like the boys in China. It also means that the only people who actually would be good parents are less likely to have children while the only ones left producing them are the uneducated, lower class masses who didn't have the resources to prevent birth or raise the children afterwards. Maybe in a different type of society these people could be given financial support but that only gets people so far when it comes to raising children. No amount of money can just force someone to be a good parent.

That's not to say Humans or any member of an advanced civilization shouldn't be held responsible and accountable for doing everything they can to ensure their child has a good life or at least not having any if they know they can't provide that. It's a complex issue that can't be boiled down to "breeding bad". It might be bad for you or for everyone you know, but not necessarily the whole world. The fact of the matter is that children bring hope to a lot of normal people. You can't even necessarily use the argument that nobody chose to be born because according to the Pixar movie Soul, literally everyone who ever lived chose to be born otherwise they physically couldn't even be born. (Obviously I'm joking with this point but you can't DISprove it...) That movie was the most anti-antinatalist thing I have ever seen lol.

Then again maybe I'm part of the problem. Even though I know it would be better for me not to have children I can't help the fact that I'd still want to make one or two of my own. I wouldn't want to adopt because I just don't think that would be fair to whoever I adopt. There's no way I would love them the same way as a child I actually made. I've decided I'd rather leave it up to whoever my partner is though. If they love me for who I am and I do the same in return then I don't care if they want zero kids or a dozen (though only if that's financially sustainable)...

 

[262653]

I'm aligning with AN in that I don't feel like having kids but for selfish reasons. Human babies take absurdly high amounts of resources to raise, and I already have one more baby to handle than I've ever wanted. Maybe if I was a demigod...

And I don't see the point anyway, as far as the well-being of the species is concerned. So you won't have any kids, someone will have a dozen. Aren't you just weeding out your AN gene? If you want to make an impact, wouldn't it be better to raise kids as ANs? Sounds like a hilarious joke to tell, with the punchline hitting your kids as they come to their age of reason.

 

[Sensei]

The problem will eventually solve itself. It may take 10, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 years, but mankind will inevitably go extinct.

 

[Good4Nothing]

When I was a teen I decided I would never bring another person into this cruel world.
48 now, no kids. Not now, not ever.

 

[Mistake of Nature]

I believe strongly in antinatalism (and efilism) as I've yet to hear a persuasive argument against this perspective. It's very misunderstood though, and given that it goes against biological and societal pressures, it'll never become widespread. Rather, antinatalists are often mocked as "crazy," "depressed," "edgelords," or are told to "get off their high horse."

While this may sound extreme to some, I believe procreation is the most cruel, sadistic, and selfish thing anyone could ever do. It's akin to murder because both acts result in the death of another person, and in some ways, to have children is even worse because it opens the door to all the pain in existence. The origin of all the hurt you, I, or anyone else will ever experience is our births. It's destruction through creation.

To be clear, I'm not saying that all parents cruel and selfish sadists, and my intention is not to insult those who have created children. On the contrary, I believe many parents have good intentions, love their children, and don't wish to harm them in any way, but it's an irrefutable fact that to procreate is to inflict a lifetime of suffering on another. For this, there is no good justification.

When it comes down to it, procreation is a true tragedy in every sense of the word.

 

[riglad]

I think that people who want to have kids and are ready should have a psychological evaluation of some kind before they do so. And those that don't should have easy access to thinks such as birth control and plan B

 

[Imaginos]

I mostly regard it as a moot topic at this point. People who want to have kids will do so. Those that don't will not. There's nothing in between and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Overall, the only two guarantees in life are suffering and death. Doesn't seem like too great a deal if you ask me, but whatever. Most people will always find ways to justify the unending misery of the world to themselves.

At the end of the day, the problem will sort itself out with the extinction of humanity which, based off the current data, is likely to occur within this century. With that said, I still subscribe to antinatalism/efilism, but I don't really see much point in discussing them in the face of where we're headed as a species. People can hyperventilate about all the suffering created in the meantime if they want to, but that just seems like a waste of energy if you ask me. These days I don't really see the point in talking about anything anymore, outside of those things which bear an immediate concern to my own situation. I really don't give a shit what other people choose to do, not that I ever truly did to be honest.

 

[sadworld]

I like antinatalism. I never wanted to be born and I think most of us feel like that. I definitely never want to have children. In my opinion, parents should have to meet some kind of requirements so that not everyone can get children. When it comes to overpopulation I literally can't support anyone who has more than 2 children because that's just straight up stupid.

 

[aneurysm]

I don't really believe in morals or ethics for practical reasons.

In our world, morals and ethics are monetized and commercialized so I find it unpractical to not believe in them.

i find it to be extremely egoistic,

Unpopular opinion: I used to feel the same but not anymore. I wouldn't mind having 12 kids. The reason being that I heard about world leaders wanting to replace humans with AI and reduce human population.

I feel like I don't want to let them. Also, the world isn't overpopulated, if people actually respected nature... Also, the more human there is, the more conscientious or nature and sustainability people will be.

If I do decide to have kids, I'd make sure that I'm rich enough (financially, emotionally, socially) to care for them.

And ideally, they'd grow up to be the ones to punish the powerful people who hurt their mommy so badly.

I still think it's selfish, but I can't let the rulers of this world (and their descendance) get away with what they did to me. This is war.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

In our world, morals and ethics are monetized and commercialized so I find it unpractical to not believe in them.

Semantics.

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

And ideally, they'd grow up to be the ones to punish the powerful people who hurt their mommy so badly.

I still think it's selfish, but I can't let the rulers of this world (and their descendance) get away with what they did to me. This is war.

What if they all decide to turn against you because "Mommy put us in this world to fight the evil villains she couldn't fight herself. Now, we're all suffering because of her weakness and cowardice. Such injustice. This is war. Let's end this. You're going to taste our wrath, Mommy."

 

[Callie Arcale]

I am a staunch antinatalist. Nothing can justify the amout of pain and suffering in the world. It's obscene.

Sleep is so good, Death is better,
yet surely never to have been born is best.

 

[aneurysm]

What if they all decide to turn against you because "Mommy put us in this world to fight the evil villains she couldn't fight herself. Now, we're all suffering because of her weakness and cowardice. Such injustice. This is war. Let's end this. You're going to taste our wrath, Mommy."

I personally intend to redirect all the resentment I have towards my parents towards those who are actually at the origin of the destruction of humanity. Like those countless soulless traders for example, making 600k/month for pushing a button to create money from nothing, and simultaneously crashing entire economies and creating wars (like WWI and WWII and the 2008 recession, and much much more).

I'll have to admit that my hate towards my parents is unfair. They simply will never be able to conceive that some people can be this evil.

 

[grungeCat]

I like the idea of antinatalism, I'm not gonna have children so they would never be bothered by this violent world. However the biggest problem with antinatalism is that... it's utopia. There will always be individuals who revolts and all our effort goes for nothing. Every birth causes an enormous amount of suffering. Every birth needs to be prevented. So here goes my unpopular opinion - the only solution is to coercively sterilize every human. Of course it means that using violence and terror would be neccessaary. More peaceful solution is to let into environment chemicals that causes impotence. On the other hands there is no such chemicals that would be this efficient and be inert to human health in other aspects.

 

[MindFrog]

I'm still on the fence regarding this.

Even if I fully support abortion and planned parenthood, I find myself stopping short into policing people's right to procreate. Mainly, because if heavily regulated, it can become a privilege only well off people can afford. It can become more of a class issue. And we're not even delving in the other factors like racism in general. I don't think we are ready to uphold this without fixing alot of our mess real quick.

But on the other hand, It'll lessen the human suffering by a lot. So i guess I just won't pull another soul from the void myself. I'd be a bad parent anyway.

 

[Fragile]

I really dislike the entire concept simply because it tramples over basic human instincts and it is, inherently and fundamentally, a flawed ideology that doesn't take into account reality, feasibility and ignores the possibility that maybe, just maybe, some people are content with having been born, which I'd say is a majority of people outside of our little echo-chamber.

So apparently this is an unpopular opinion here, but if someone wants to choose non-existence, then they should choose it for themselves and not for others.

The best alternative, or rather middle ground, would be eugenics when science gets to the point of usable genetic editing, so that even if we can't guarantee happiness in life, at least we can prevent vast amounts of suffering through the elimination of broken genes like the one that is killing me.

Just to be clear since some people will point it out, I'm talking about eugenics through genetic editing, Not through selective breeding and exclusion of some groups from the genetic pool, as some people tried in the previous century. That way reproductive freedom won't be affected in a significant fashion.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I disagree with it but only because I feel it takes it too far. There's no need for everyone to not have kids (that's a good way for the human population to end. I don't understand how THAT never comes up) however, people should be more adult about another's life. When I was 14 I decided I wouldn't have a child because of my mental disorders. If a 14yo can make an adult decision, why can't adults? (rhetorical)

Edit: I also want to add that another 'point' that comes up is that life sucks. Not everyone's does please stop speaking for everyone when you don't know everyone.

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

I personally intend to redirect all the resentment I have towards my parents towards those who are actually at the origin of the destruction of humanity. Like those countless soulless traders for example, making 600k/month for pushing a button to create money from nothing, and simultaneously crashing entire economies and creating wars (like WWI and WWII and the 2008 recession, and much much more).

I'll have to admit that my hate towards my parents is unfair. They simply will never be able to conceive that some people can be this evil.

I see, I personnally strive to fix the wrong that has already been done, using the means that are already at my disposal now, without relying on creating and bringing in more innocent beings to do the dirty work. I personally see that kind of mindset as being one of the main causes for suffering now. Irresponsibility. People passing their duties onto other life-forms because they refuse to do their part without relying on others. This creates an endless cycle and loop of unnecessary detrimental delegation and complacency, just because we can.

In the end, to me, if no one could or would conceive ever again, then everyone would be forced to do what is right, by themselves. Unless, they find other ways to delegate their duties, like forced slavery of already existing beings, for example, which is already the case currently. There would be no more "I'm going to let my children handle it, because why not? I can have children to do it for me instead of doing it myself, by myself, for myself and possibly for others." This, to me, is a form of slavery and continuation of slavery. In the end, to me, this choice to delegate or force one's duty onto another being, wether existing or not-yet-existing, is based on laziness, complacency, weakness, cowardice and abuse of power. It is abuse. It is injustice. We strive for justice. It starts with us.

Don't take this personally. I'm just saying that there are ways, currently available to fight the evil that already exists, by using means that currently exist and are currently available to us, without relying on poor innocent souls, to do it for us. Even if the effects we have are currently small or almost non-existent, I still think that what truly matters is integrity in the world and maintaining said integrity, by each one of us being just. If all currently existing beings were just, everything would be just. If we start ending this cycle by being just, the wheel would be forced to turn the opposite way and in the end, everything would be just. There will never be anymore suffering ever again. At least, for the human species and probably for nature on earth too, actually.

This is why, I feel it is important to direct everyone's attention towards the current suffering and injustice. And to strive to fix what we can without relying on more innocent souls. Also, it takes years to raise a child, whereas we can take action now. By doing what we can now instead of relying on a method that may or may not be useful or successful in the future, our chances of making an immediate or not-so-far-in-the-future change is higher. All in all, bringing awareness to the current suffering and injustice, in every way we can and whenever we can, is one of our currently available and accessible tools. Another tool we have, is to stop this cycle of unnecessary detrimental unjust delegation and complacency by not choosing to bring in more innocent souls to do the dirty work for us but choosing to use the tools currently available instead. No one wants to see the suffering that exists unless it affects them directly, and even then, people have become better at dissociating and fantasizing instead of looking at reality. But doing what we can now without relying on bringing in more beings to do it for us, is far more noble and just than doing what our ancestors did, which is relying on us to do whatever dirty work they had to do for them or remaining blissfully ignorant to reality only to fulfill their own selfish ignorant desires and fantasies of all kinds.

There were/are some cases in which parenthood was forced upon some humans. This is a different topic. I personnally think that all beings that are a result of forced parenthood not only should, but deserve to have the right for peaceful self-termination, like everyone else, actually. But in this specific case, I think, the parent that was forced to have the child should also have the authority over what happens to the child, wether it is life or death and the conditions that may come with either decision, as the creation of the child wasn't achieved with their full consent. A type of late abortion when abortion wasn't possible for whatever reason. Or at least be able to relinquish responsibility of said child fully. The one responsible for forcing another human into parenthood should be the only one to face and carry the responsibility of the child. It is about choice. Those who did not have the choice should have the upper hand in deciding on the fate of and what to do with the results and consequences of the abuse that was inflicted upon them. Again, correlated but different topic. Of course, forcing another human to do something is an atrocity. And I still think no one should procreate nor be able to procreate ever again, in any case.

Here, I am talking about parenthood where the humans involved have a choice on wether to procreate or not.

In the end, it all comes down to choice, if you have it.

So, the choice is yours. You want to make a change. You want to bring justice. Do you choose to fight and live or die justly or do you choose to rely on the methods your ancestors relied on? Do you choose to leave other beings alone or do you choose to force them to do what you want them to? Do you choose to leave other beings alone or do you choose to force them to live and carry out what you want them to carry out? Do you choose to leave other beings alone or do you choose to force a being that doesn't exist yet to exist? The answer is obvious to me. If what our ancestors did was right, there would be no suffering today. We wouldn't be here to suffer today. Also, to me, this isn't limited to anti-natalism and the topic of procreation, it's a way of being in general.

This is my opinion.

Your idea of justice might involve bringing unrelated poor innocent souls to life to fulfill it.

Mine doesn't.

 

[aneurysm]

@KuraiKokoro, I really admire and am grateful for your dedication to explain me your point of view. I agree with everything you have said. It just doesn't apply to me.

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

I see, it is about choice, in the end.

 

[aneurysm]

I see, it is about choice, in the end.

It's just that you seem to automatically assume that my kids will suffer. not necessarily (hopefully not).
some people are genuinely having a good time.

EDIT: @KuraiKokoro, It's also worth mentioning that I don't currently live in degenerate West. I live in a beautiful place surrounded by nature and the desert (and real people). Houses here aren't make of cardboard like in the west, and food is still food.

(sorry, couldn't miss the change to spit on degenerate Western society)

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

It's not so much about their possible suffering, well, that too. It's more about the idea of putting a responsibility and burden on them to fix this world or anything else really, when they don't even exist yet and have nothing to do with it. I just find that really unfair. That's all. But, I can't tell you what to do. I'm just expressing myself.

 

[aneurysm]

It's not so much about their possible suffering, well, that too. It's more about the idea of putting a responsibility and burden on them to fix this world or anything else really, when they don't even exist yet and have nothing to do with it. I just find that really unfair. That's all. But, I can't tell you what to do. I'm just expressing myself.

them being genuinely happy and content and sustainable and not selfish is what I call vengeance
there is no reason to leave the earth to the descendants of these sickos. Just thinking about it makes me nauseous.

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

I understand your feelings. I don't know what else to say except; do what feels best to you.

 

[quicksand]

It's just that you seem to automatically assume that my kids will suffer. not necessarily (hopefully not).
some people are genuinely having a good time.

EDIT: @KuraiKokoro, It's also worth mentioning that I don't currently live in degenerate West. I live in a beautiful place surrounded by nature and the desert (and real people). Houses here aren't make of cardboard like in the west, and food is still food.

(sorry, couldn't miss the change to spit on degenerate Western society)

'Degenerate West' with carboard houses and fake people. Lol. You have some strange views.

 

[TwoTenEightyEight]

As much as I can understand this forum being mostly antinatalist, it saddens me that we fail to see there is good in birth and procreation.

Having said that, I know there are medical considerations to prevent a birth; on a case-by-case basis of course and where necessary.

It's just that you seem to automatically assume that my kids will suffer. not necessarily (hopefully not).
some people are genuinely having a good time.

As much as I won't have kids myself, I agree with this sentiment. Even though we're depressed (or worse), doesn't mean to say other are having slap-happy life.

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

I will just say this.

Freedom.

I believe that procreation is wrong.

Justice will be done.

Truth will come out.

Inevitably.

No matter what. ​

 

[quicksand]

As much as I can understand this forum being mostly antinatalist, it saddens me that we fail to see there is good in birth and procreation.

Having said that, I know there are medical considerations to prevent a birth; on a case-by-case basis of course and where necessary.


As much as I won't have kids myself, I agree with this sentiment. Even though we're depressed (or worse), doesn't mean to say other are having slap-happy life.

I agree. I feel like it's a very warped view of the world to believe that natalism is inherently wrong. To think that no one else should give birth because you yourself are suffering is incredibly self-important to the point of delusion. The size of this forum alone should tell us that people with conditions that lead to suicide are a tiny, tiny percentage of the global population.

Also the comment you replied to thinks the West is degenerate for what exactly? Being amongst the most accepting societies in the world? Given that the person is struggling with their own array of issues, it's pretty confusing to see them try to justify the preference to raise a child in a part of the world that would stone them for having differing sexualities, for example.