Discussion What do you see as the possible answer?

[OneBigBlur]

You are in the United States. If you want a therapist, may I suggest you contact an organization such as Compassion and Choices or any other that is excepting of the right to die. They can refer you to a like minded therapist.

I will look it up, thank you.

 

[Jean4]

I will look it up, thank you.

I was a therapist for the Hemlock Society. I helped people who wanted to CTB. Never stopped them. We are out there. ;)

 

[MeltingHeart]

You are raising the exact point I'm mulling over since becoming badly suicidal: what is it that I would want other people to say or do?

And the answer is: I don't know. If they'd accept my plans, that wouldn't make me feel any better I think; if they'd react as most people react and call the authorities or demand I admit myself to a psych ward, that would make me feel a lot worse (it has happened with one friend to me already).

I realized that my wishes are actually a) regressive, in that I want someone to absolve me of my existential responsibility for my own life and b) narcissistic, in that I want others to attend to me as if it were their own lives that were in danger; I often fantasize about a sort of 'intervention', where all my friends and family stay at my house and tell me they'll never let me do it and they need me and love me and where they'll watch over me day and night, not unlike you see families do that sort of thing to a grieving spouse.

If I could choose, though, I'd rather be taken seriously and treated as a rational adult person and definitely not classified insane and locked up in a ward, if that makes sense.

Finding the will to live and wanting to change is, in the end, something only you yourself can do and then and only then can other people provide assistance.

I totally agree, and the end of the day when all is said and done the will to live does have to come from that person, no amount of therapy, support and encouragment, words of hope (those platitudes that we all help-but that others offer up when they too are at a loss as to the best thing to say) will change someones mind that is steadfast in the thought that they have nothing to live for.

I can see understand some people being frustrated when they feel they can not even discuss suicidal ideation with their family and friends for fear of being ostracised, and yet there needs to be a level of understanding from both sides, sometimes people that havent suffered from bad depression or suicidal thoughts quite simply dont know the right thing to say to someone- they can offer up expressions of hope, ideas of the good things that person has in life-but all to often these seem to anger & frustrate the suicidal person-that no one understands-or what they are saying is not helpful...perhaps leaving them at a loss as to the right thing to say?!

And then there are those that are serious about their desire to ctb-and feel they want to be able to tell people and for that to be understood & accepted-and yet I do wonder realistically if these people told there family-and the answer was simply -ok do what you must- actually how would they really feel if that happened? (excluding cases of severe/ terminal illness and MAID etc-as that is a different story).

I do think that is a very narrow view point that all suicidal people are insane and that it can never be rational. My personal experience was from people (non professionals) that instantly labelled me with a mental illness when they knew I had an intention to end my life. They have never shown any interest in my life-but suddenly seemed to want to show their 'care'- by being angry at me,showing disdain, either shounting or full ignoring me, trying to have me sectioned, basically invading all if my privacy -to build up a secret 'case' to have me sectioned without my knowledge. I am being calm, quiet & rational-im not acting crazy or being impulsive in anyway. It is all because they believe suicide is selfish (yep that old chestnut) & they have some kind of moral obligation to stop a suicide. They would rather i be locked up than find my peace. They would rather label me with a mental illness than to try and acknowledge that maybe, just maybe it is not that simply, maybe too much has happened to me, life has proven too hard, the future for me-after carefull consideration and reflection can not be what I had hope it could now-and I would like to opt out. Simple as that. Yet they are being selfish-they want to protect themselves-they dont want to be tarnished with a suicide in their lives, if they had cared at all any other time throughout my life, then this would matter to me but as things are-I choose to be the selfish one for once!

 

[Jean4]

I totally agree, and the end of the day when all is said and done the will to live does have to come from that person, no amount of therapy, support and encouragment, words of hope (those platitudes that we all help-but that others offer up when they too are at a loss as to the best thing to say) will change someones mind that is steadfast in the thought that they have nothing to live for.

I can see understand some people being frustrated when they feel they can not even discuss suicidal ideation with their family and friends for fear of being ostracised, and yet there needs to be a level of understanding from both sides, sometimes people that havent suffered from bad depression or suicidal thoughts quite simply dont know the right thing to say to someone- they can offer up expressions of hope, ideas of the good things that person has in life-but all to often these seem to anger & frustrate the suicidal person-that no one understands-or what they are saying is not helpful...perhaps leaving them at a loss as to the right thing to say?!

And then there are those that are serious about their desire to ctb-and feel they want to be able to tell people and for that to be understood & accepted-and yet I do wonder realistically if these people told there family-and the answer was simply -ok do what you must- actually how would they really feel if that happened? (excluding cases of severe/ terminal illness and MAID etc-as that is a different story).

I do think that is a very narrow view point that all suicidal people are insane and that it can never be rational. My personal experience was from people (non professionals) that instantly labelled me with a mental illness when they knew I had an intention to end my life. They have never shown any interest in my life-but suddenly seemed to want to show their 'care'- by being angry at me,showing disdain, either shounting or full ignoring me, trying to have me sectioned, basically invading all if my privacy -to build up a secret 'case' to have me sectioned without my knowledge. I am being calm, quiet & rational-im not acting crazy or being impulsive in anyway. It is all because they believe suicide is selfish (yep that old chestnut) & they have some kind of moral obligation to stop a suicide. They would rather i be locked up than find my peace. They would rather label me with a mental illness than to try and acknowledge that maybe, just maybe it is not that simply, maybe too much has happened to me, life has proven too hard, the future for me-after carefull consideration and reflection can not be what I had hope it could now-and I would like to opt out. Simple as that. Yet they are being selfish-they want to protect themselves-they dont want to be tarnished with a suicide in their lives, if they had cared at all any other time throughout my life, then this would matter to me but as things are-I choose to be the selfish one for once!

I counseled many who CTB. They came to me to make peace. I never tried to stop them.

 

[MeltingHeart]

@Jean4 In your opinion are most therapists open to their clients discussing some suicidal ideation or times of passive suicidal thoughts-as a kind of symptom of depression? I mean so long as you dont say- 'Ive got the means to do it-and i do have a plan to attempt' I would have thought it was fairly common to discuss having thoughts of killing yourself or that you often wish you were dead etc within the context of a therapy session. Surely they cant be threatening to section every severly depressed individual that expresses thoughts of suicide? I could be wrong. Dont know how it works. I didnt get sectioned until I had done an actual real life attempt.

I counseled many who CTB. They came to me to make peace. I never tried to stop them.

Thats amazing. I do wish i could have a session like that myself.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I see ALOT of posts on here slagging off & venting the entirity of the medical or clinical systems (quite rightly so in many cases). Venting that ALL therapists have failed them, they cant talk to them-because they will be locked up when they say they want to kill themselves (do you want them to say ok then & hand you a rope?) - which they HAVE to do as its called duty of care if someone is going to hurt themselves or others. All doctors are shit and/or evil (dont get me wrong i had a doctor that totally fucked up too-but it was just very bad judgement on her part) All meds are bad, dont work or cause great harm & are basically about money & corruption by big Pharma. Psychiatry is at best inaccuarate or a very flawed 'science' & seemingly often damages people greatly. You cant talk to ANYONE, incl friends and faimly. about how you feel-because,surprise surprise- some people might actually tell you NOT to kill yourself.

Not including the people that have literally being harmed by doctors- as that is clearly a huge error and should not have happened. And they made a big mistake.
But:
So my questions is this- What are the possible answers?! What DO/DID people want? What WOULD have (or COULD still) made a difference/ helped you? What needs to change or be done better?

Answers on a postcard, as they say ;)

Those are very valid questions. In an ideal world I want medical staff who will listen and understand. Who will treat a patient as an individual with specific needs and work around them if those needs are complex, rather than plonking them in the closest category and care pathway flowchart that fits. I want to not encounter the massive prejudice that comes with any mental health diagnosis, where all your physical and social problems are automatically dismissed as psych problems. I want to be treated with respect and as a valid person.
Unfortunately here in the real world, people do their best but are flawed. The system is stretched beyond capacity and the professionals have to fit within an inflexible framework whilst dealing with their own pressures.
So what I want and what I get are very different merely due to the nature of reality.
Still I believe we should try to be better. I may understand that being listened to and respected is often unrealistic but I still want it.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I want medical professionals *not* to be required by law to report/interfere suicidal patients. I want to be able to have a medically assisted death after a sensible, non-humiliating screening process, at an affordable cost.

I agree that they should report everyone that expresses some suicidal thought, but how would it work with the grey area of a patient going to see a doctor-or in a therapy secession and says they feel like they want to end their life, they may ask do you have the means and/or a plan? what if they say yes, ive got some benzos a rope at home, and when i leave here i will be going home alone....you think in this case still that should be kept as 100% confidential and not interfere with? Personally I dont have an answer, im really not sure where I would stand on this point, but I can certainly see that it would put that medical professional in a tricky position.

 

[Soul]

I agree that they should report everyone that expresses some suicidal thought, but how would it work with the grey area of a patient going to see a doctor-or in a therapy secession and says they feel like they want to end their life, they may ask do you have the means and/or a plan? what if they say yes, ive got some benzos a rope at home, and when i leave here i will be going home alone....you think in this case still that should be kept as 100% confidential and not interfere with? Personally I dont have an answer, im really not sure where I would stand on this point, but I can certainly see that it would put that medical professional in a tricky position.

If there were no requirement to report suicidal patients, doctors who don't feel comfortable assisting them could refer them to doctors who do.

But I doubt your scenario would arise in a pro-choice society, since few people would mess around with benzos and rope if they had access to compassionately administered assisted death.

There should be some kind of humane screening process but assisted death shouldn't be withheld from people who want it, any more than lifesaving treatments should be withheld from people who want those.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

This is a really interesting thread!

First @MeltingHeart , I think that's really a non-problem you're bringing up; you can most likely just hint at all of those things. so instead of saying "I've got a rope at home" you say (with a sort of metaphorical twinkle in the eye) "I'd be intelligent enough to research and be well informed on how to carry out such an act successfully, so if I'd want to, I could/ etc..." Just never state it directly or if pressured just flat out say "I'd never do such a thing of course". I think with facial gesture and tone of voice you can communicate the truth behind that and your wish not be sectioned. But you'll have to evaluate the relationship with the therapist or psych yourself I guess and better know the laws of your country in regards to such issues.

@Soul , when my grandfather was dying he had done all the legal paperwork to refuse any life saving or prolonging measures (he had even attempted to ctb as soon as it became clear that he'd only decline further, but was discovered by family members) and still, the first doctor that arrived after his condition started rapidly declining, started lecturing us about morality and how he was a Christian and it was his belief that one must do anything to save a person, etc etc.. . We were shocked!!

Thats one side of the argument. But there are valid concerns I think, for example that the old and sick could begin being pressured into ending their lives, etc...

 

[RealLostSoul]

See, this is the truth, I am too old to get out of mental diseases that I am already facing since years . Once you hit that spot of no return, you are gone forever. What would have made a difference is a family and love but i was a piece of shit ever since.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

See, this is the truth, I am too old to get out of mental diseases that I am already facing since years . Once you hit that spot of no return, you are gone forever. What would have made a difference is a family and love but i was a piece of shit ever since.

How old are you?

 

[Soul]

@a.n.kirillov, your grandfather's story is an example of what my idea would not allow. Doctors who are skittish about helping someone die would refer them to someone who's prepared to help.

Some people would no doubt feel pressured to exit. The screening process should be designed to help them. Of course, some people feel pressured even when no one's pressuring them, but screening could sort them out too.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Some people would no doubt feel pressured to exit. The screening process should be designed to help them. Of course, some people feel pressured even when no one's pressuring them, but screening could sort them out too.

Fair points, I agree with that
Screening would be necessary.

 

[chris8000]

I see ALOT of posts on here slagging off & venting the entirity of the medical or clinical systems (quite rightly so in many cases). Venting that ALL therapists have failed them, they cant talk to them-because they will be locked up when they say they want to kill themselves (do you want them to say ok then & hand you a rope?) - which they HAVE to do as its called duty of care if someone is going to hurt themselves or others. All doctors are shit and/or evil (dont get me wrong i had a doctor that totally fucked up too-but it was just very bad judgement on her part) All meds are bad, dont work or cause great harm & are basically about money & corruption by big Pharma. Psychiatry is at best inaccuarate or a very flawed 'science' & seemingly often damages people greatly. You cant talk to ANYONE, incl friends and faimly. about how you feel-because,surprise surprise- some people might actually tell you NOT to kill yourself.

Not including the people that have literally being harmed by doctors- as that is clearly a huge error and should not have happened. And they made a big mistake.
But:
So my questions is this- What are the possible answers?! What DO/DID people want? What WOULD have (or COULD still) made a difference/ helped you? What needs to change or be done better?

Answers on a postcard, as they say ;)

I think a lot of these things are true, pharma drugs aren't the way towards a good quality of mind neither are therapists IMO. So the question is what to do instead? I used to have suicidal thoughts and had some half hearted suicide attempt a long time ago now. I got into meditation after visiting a Buddhist monastery, then after that I was fine for ten years because I started observing my thoughts instead of reacting to them. And yoga and Qi gong were useful as well. But my problem now is when the mental stuff is no longer a problem really, what do you do when your in severe untreatable chronic pain for years and have tried nearly everything. Not saying all cases of depression etc can be treated with mindfulness, they can't, but it is part of the answer. Probably some drugs can help too like ketamine and shrooms etc, see life differently or something. So the system is the problem as usual, all systems are prisons.

 

[TAW122]

I think a lot of these things are true, pharma drugs aren't the way towards a good quality of mind neither are therapists IMO. So the question is what to do instead? I used to have suicidal thoughts and had some half hearted suicide attempt a long time ago now. I got into meditation after visiting a Buddhist monastery, then after that I was fine for ten years because I started observing my thoughts instead of reacting to them. And yoga and Qi gong were useful as well. But my problem now is when the mental stuff is no longer a problem really, what do you do when your in severe untreatable chronic pain for years and have tried nearly everything. Not saying all cases of depression etc can be treated with mindfulness, they can't, but it is part of the answer. Probably some drugs can help too like ketamine and shrooms etc, see life differently or something. So the system is the problem as usual, all systems are prisons.

I agree with this, I too, don't always see therapy or medication as a solution (they can be for some, but not always - unlike what the masses like to purport for any issue/ailment someone may be facing.) As for other means of healing and solutions, I found my own fulfillment and it works for me, but I don't expect it to work for others because their lives and minds are different than I. In regards to your last sentence, yes, in a sense, societies and the system (capitalism, socialism, etc.) we live in is in and of itself, a prison and we do our best to cope with life's challenges and misery. I also believe that if one decides he/she has had it with the system and just life in general, then he/she should be afforded the choice to check out instead of being required to partake in society.