What are your feelings on Antinatalism?

[eternalmelancholy]

I think a lot of the reasons why we want to ctb overlap with the tenets of antinatalism. Ultimately we are all here because of the selfish desires of our parents/ancestors. It is not like we had any say in what gender, race, nationality, socioeconomic class, etc we are born into.

I am frankly embarrassed and ashamed of my parents and family. I know I have no right to criticize anyone since I'm no prize either but at least I can recognize that I am a deeply flawed person. So many people mindlessly have kids in terrible circumstances and then demand/guilt them into being grateful for a shitty life they never asked for.

It just frustrates me that I have to exist in this unrelenting hell and if I want to escape I have to overcome biological instincts imprinted on a genetic level. Living sucks but dying is hard. If I never existed I never had to experience the agony of life and the fear of death. People who bring new lives into this hell are evil.

 

[Efilismislife]

Efilism! (My username) similar to anti natalism

"The Selfish gene"

The only purpose of pro-create is only based on genetic selfishness
because human need the new generation to continue to carry the burden of the previous generation

Its never ending

Its bitter but its truth that not everyone willing to admit

The core issue is the procreation.
Death/suicide is actually only the bitter consequences/by product for the victim whos being abused, its not the win-win solution

Eflism/anti natalist prevents death not to inflict them. Pro creation brings death. For life always brings death.

---

Anyone realize that human is the only creature that gain benefit from having children?

because animal doesnt gain benefit from their children, animal only get burdened by nurturing the kid(but they can only follow their instinct without critical thinking)after the children grow they leave and never caring about the parents.

i find that interesting. why they have to breed? Even when the children only get eaten by predator. Its ridiculous!

Clearly the purpose is only reproduction to avoid being instinct.

"The selfish gene" pass it on to preserve the gene

 

[heretogethelp]

I think a lot of the reasons why we want to ctb overlap with the tenets of antinatalism. Ultimately we are all here because of the selfish desires of our parents/ancestors. It is not like we had any say in what gender, race, nationality, socioeconomic class, etc we are born into.

I am frankly embarrassed and ashamed of my parents and family. I know I have no right to criticize anyone since I'm no prize either but at least I can recognize that I am a deeply flawed person. So many people mindlessly have kids in terrible circumstances and then demand/guilt them into being grateful for a shitty life they never asked for.

It just frustrates me that I have to exist in this unrelenting hell and if I want to escape I have to overcome biological instincts imprinted on a genetic level. Living sucks but dying is hard. If I never existed I never had to experience the agony of life and the fear of death. People who bring new lives into this hell are evil.

I hate life, too. I'm an anti-natalist as well. My parents have enough money so I don't 'have' to work and my family know I'm clinically depressed.

 

[eternalmelancholy]

The only purpose of pro-create is only based on selfishness
because human need the new generation to continue to carry the burden of the previous generation

This entire system is a giant ponzi scheme. It requires a constant stream of new slaves to sustain itself. That is why governments and corporations are always freaking out about low birth rates. With less people who are going to pay their taxes, fight their wars, create their wealth and consume their products?

I hate how we are labelled as crazy nutjobs for pointing out the obvious. Life sucks for the vast majority of people. No amount of pro life propaganda and brainwashing will change this fact.

 

[BottomlessPit]

The greatest act of compassion is to leave the unborn in peace and not bring them into this world. By creating sentience you inevitably create problems that need to be solved.

Birth becomes even more disgusting when you realize that it is impossible for the child to be conceived for its own sake, as that would require for it to exist in the first place. The reason for childbirth is always selfish; parents want entertainment, a legacy, a retirement plan, etc... they disregard the fact that the person they create is guaranteed to suffer immensely in life.

 

[eternalmelancholy]

I hate life, too. I'm an anti-natalist as well. My parents have enough money so I don't 'have' to work and my family know I'm clinically depressed.

What is going to happen when the money runs out? It drives me nuts that I am actively suicidal but also have to do things I hate (like work) to stay alive. The paradox just cuts on a deep existential level.

The greatest act of compassion is to leave the unborn in peace and not bring them into this world. By creating sentience you inevitably create problems that need to be solved.

Birth becomes even more disgusting when you realize that it is impossible for the child to be conceived for its own sake, as that would require it to exist in the first place. The reason for childbirth is always selfish; parents want entertainment, a legacy, a retirement plan, etc... they disregard the fact that the person is guaranteed to suffer immensely in life.

People always had kids for selfish reasons. Like need more helping hands on the farm, more soldiers to fight tribal wars, take care of the elderly, etc. We are all just slaves breeding future generation of slaves. Just end the cycle of abuse.

But maybe it isn't so easy. Like overcoming survival instinct to ctb, maybe defeating the instinct to breed is almost impossible.

 

[heretogethelp]

What is going to happen when the money runs out? It drives me nuts that I am actively suicidal but also have to do things I hate (like work) to stay alive. The paradox just cuts on a deep existential level.

I don't live beyond my means, so it probably never will. Anyways, i'm still applying for jobs and am very anxious about learning excel :(

 

[Divine Trinity]

The only justifiable reason to have kids is by accident, but even then several fail safes have been created in contemporary society...

 

[eternalmelancholy]

I don't live beyond my means, so it probably never will. Anyways, i'm still applying for jobs and am very anxious about learning excel :(

Who knows maybe you will find a job you like. If we are stuck here for the time being might as well fill the time. Unfortunately I am not qualified to have nice jobs so I work shitty ones for low pay.

The only justifiable reason to have kids is by accident, but even then several fail safes have been created in contemporary society...

There is always abortion. Although depending on where you live it might not be available to you. Another reason why society disgusts me. They restrict access and information to things like abortion, euthanasia, suicide, etc all the while promoting pro life and pro natalist propaganda.

 

[BottomlessPit]

But maybe it isn't so easy. Like overcoming survival instinct to ctb, maybe defeating the instinct to breed is almost impossible.

I mentioned before on this forum that I don't believe that there is such a thing as an instinct to procreate. There are way too many childfree people in the world, numbers growing, for such a thing to exist. They don't have to fight any instinct, to the contrary, they are quite happy with their situation. I think it's more accurate to say that we have an instinct to have sex, which in turn leads to children as an effect. But sex can be had safely with contraceptives nowadays, so the only thing standing in the way of voluntary human extinction is ignorance and societal conditioning (and regions in the world where contraceptives are not available).

 

[Efilismislife]

The only justifiable reason to have kids is by accident, but even then several fail safes have been created in contemporary society...

Theres birth control and sterilization.

At least a license is needed before having kids. Having test to make sure the parents is capable to provide for all the needs, proper parenting and supportive environment, no genetic defect or inherited disease, etc, etc.

even after that theres still a possibility of natural disaster, accident, disease, or this pandemic and many things that can go wrong.

 

[eternalmelancholy]

I mentioned before on this forum that I don't believe that there is such a thing as an instinct to procreate. There are way too many childfree people in the world, numbers growing, for such a thing to exist. They don't have to fight any instinct, to the contrary, they are quite happy with their situation.

That is an interesting argument. I definitely agree on some level but I am not sure how objective I can be since I hate life. I do believe most people have an instinct or urge to procreate. It is just that we are lacking this so it is hard to understand from our perspective.

At least a license is needed before having kids. Having test to make sure the parents is capable to provide for all the needs, proper parenting and supportive environment, no genetic defect or inherited disease, etc, etc.

This will never happen. People will scream that it is eugenics. Look at people who have kids with severe disabilities and call it a blessing. Even though the kid is in complete agnoy and torment. It is all about the feelings of the parents and not the quality of life for the kids.

 

[Efilismislife]

I mentioned before on this forum that I don't believe that there is such a thing as an instinct to procreate. There are way too many childfree people in the world, numbers growing, for such a thing to exist. They don't have to fight any instinct, to the contrary, they are quite happy with their situation. I think it's more accurate to say that we have an instinct to have sex, which in turn leads to children as an effect. But sex can be had safely with contraceptives nowadays, so the only thing standing in the way of voluntary human extinction is ignorance and societal conditioning (and regions in the world where contraceptives are not available).

There is. Its "the selfish gene" a defensive mechanism to secure the future.
Because future generation is needed to 'save' the previous generation

If theres no future generation the previous generation will suffer. Then extinct. Obviously theyre not selfless enough to sacrifice themselves so they rather bring more people eventhough it creates more death.

But now the world is having a threat of overpopulation so its ridiculous to use extinction as an excuse.

Its actually the other way around. People should wake up to see the threat of overpopulation!

 

[eternalmelancholy]

If theres no future generation the previous generation will suffer. Then extinct. Obviously theyre not selfless enough to sacrifice themselves so they rather bring more people eventhough ut creates more death.

It is so messed up that we have to carry the burden for our parents mistakes. Why am I here just to suffer because of my parents selfish desires? At least I know I won't continue this pointless cycle of abuse. Not having kids is the only thing I have done right in my life.

 

[All Things Must Pass]

This will never happen. People will scream that it is eugenics. Look at people who have kids with severe disabilities and call it a blessing. Even though the kid is in complete agnoy and torment. It is all about the feelings of the parents and not the quality of life for the kids.

Indeed. Prolifers are sadists after all.

 

[LastFlowers]

I do consider myself an antinatalist, so I guess that sums up my feelings about it!

 

[eternalmelancholy]

Indeed. Prolifers are sadists after all.

Why do they pretend to care so much about strangers who commit suicide? It literally has no bearing on their lives. I swear these assholes are just control freaks who hide behind the facade of morality. They want to tell others what to think and how to behave. They can fuck off.

Your life belongs to you and you alone. No one else can decide whether your life is worth continuing.

 

[LastFlowers]

That is an interesting argument. I definitely agree on some level but I am not sure how objective I can be since I hate life. I do believe most people have an instinct or urge to procreate. It is just that we are lacking this so it is hard to understand from our perspective.



This will never happen. People will scream that it is eugenics. Look at people who have kids with severe disabilities and call it a blessing. Even though the kid is in complete agnoy and torment. It is all about the feelings of the parents and not the quality of life for the kids.

If that's considered eugenics, then I wish my parents were more into it before they decided to create my miserable flesh prison.

Don't even get me started with the romanticism of disabilities/genetic disorders and pity-porn connoisseurs who eat that shit right up, people who treat kids with downs like cute puppy dogs.
There's one guy who makes $$$ on this charade on YouTube and I cannot stand him!!!
Why the fuck would anybody want that for their child or even be okay with it?
You can love the kid without loving their lack of cognitive ability or physical handicaps and if you have the opportunity to prevent a child from coming into this world with any number of these (possibly foreseeable) issues, then you would be a monster not to take it.
But damn, do people LOVE to be public martyrs for their children. Enough already.

The common perception of eugenics is not a kind one, but if we are talking 'designer babies' in the manner of taking all the major risks out of the equation, then I don't see what's wrong with that.
Why is pure chance any more ethical?

Until we can create ourselves in our own image and consent to inhabiting that image, this is the closest we will come to reducing inherent suffering.

 

[Efilismislife]

There is always abortion. Although depending on where you live it might not be available to you. Another reason why society disgusts me. They restrict access and information to things like abortion, euthanasia, suicide, etc all the while promoting pro life and pro natalist propaganda.

Theres a difference between not being created vs suicide&abortion tho. You dont even have to struggle to kill yourself/baby if its not because youre/the baby being created first?

After being created you get an absolute death sentence as the end game. You dont even have a choice but to suffer.

The core issue is the pro creation. And death/abortion is actually only the bitter consequences for the victim whos being abused, not the win win solution


Thats what people use to insult actually

"WHY DONT ANTI NATALIST JUST KILL THEMSELVES! TRASH WASTING THE OXYGEN! HYPOCRITE"



They mistakenly switch that up.

Suicide is actually a result of pro create.

Eflism/anti natalist prevents death not inflict them. But procreate creates more death. For life always bring death.

This will never happen. People will scream that it is eugenics. Look at people who have kids with severe disabilities and call it a blessing. Even though the kid is in complete agnoy and torment. It is all about the feelings of the parents and not the quality of life for the kids.

It baffled me. Theres a recent trending video about that. They empathize the parents for having a hard time caring the dying kid.(but its the parents that brought that trouble to themselves)
People glorifying that but they dont think about the kid is suffering just because of the parents one sided decision.

 

[BottomlessPit]

There is. Its "the selfish gene" a defensive mechanism to secure the future.
Because future generation is needed to 'save' the previous generation

If theres no future generation the previous generation will suffer. Then extinct. Obviously theyre not selfless enough to sacrifice themselves so they rather bring more people eventhough it creates more death.

But that is not really an instinct to procreate as such. Rather it is the instinct for survival and avoidance of suffering that is at work here.
You might think that I'm just splitting hairs, but I think this distinction is important to make because many breeders use this nonexistent "instinct to procreate" to justify giving birth. It gives them justification because they can say "hurr durr look at me I'm a stupid ape I have no other choice but to give birth ooga booga", when in reality they do it out of pure selfish interest, not out of an inherent instinct.

 

[LastFlowers]

I mentioned before on this forum that I don't believe that there is such a thing as an instinct to procreate. There are way too many childfree people in the world, numbers growing, for such a thing to exist. They don't have to fight any instinct, to the contrary, they are quite happy with their situation. I think it's more accurate to say that we have an instinct to have sex, which in turn leads to children as an effect. But sex can be had safely with contraceptives nowadays, so the only thing standing in the way of voluntary human extinction is ignorance and societal conditioning (and regions in the world where contraceptives are not available).

To be fair, I believe the "instinct" for sex is basically for the very purpose of procreating, despite what humans and society have made of it.
So people may not be making that connection in their head every time they fuck one another, but that's the actual natural purpose when it comes down to it.
There are childfree people but there are also asexual people.
(Now I'm also an antinatalist and asexual, so take that as you will. )
I guess the argument against these things being proof of any lack of instinct, is the typical "normal human variance" argument, meaning diversity in the population is often a healthy thing in and of itself, a natural thing to have a minority of "unnaturals" to offset any possible issues that the majority cause or are susceptible to.
But I still agree that societal conditioning can sometimes create man-made majorities/minorities, or perceptions of such, and so certain things may be able to be "reverse-engineered" (for lack of a better term...undone) given the proper tools to rid yourself of said conditioning.

But that is not really an instinct to procreate as such. Rather it is the instinct for survival and avoidance of suffering that is at work here.
You might think that I'm just splitting hairs, but I think this distinction is important to make because many breeders use this nonexistent "instinct to procreate" to justify giving birth. It gives them justification because they can say "hurr durr look at me I'm a stupid ape I have no other choice but to give birth ooga booga", when in reality they do it out of pure selfish interest, not out of an inherent instinct.

By their logic, murder should be permitted, rape as well...I can easily see someone arguing for the "natural-ness" of these things, the "inability" to control the urge, we see them all the time in other species and we don't exactly demonize or pathologize them (unless when applied to ourselves.)
But we are human beings and must differentiate ourselves from our animal basics, as that is the only thing separating us from any other creature on this earth.
We have empathy, we have self-awareness, we have chosen civilization over anarchy and chaos, why stop now?
Why revert when humans are all about being progressive, evolving, ascending..?
That's what those who procreate fail to see the contradiction in.

Really though, we are a mistake of the universe and continuing on this mistake, this fluke, is really not necessary and we are not any more wrong (than those who have children) for wanting to discontinue breeding of the human species, or any other species for that matter.

 

[Efilismislife]

But that is not really an instinct to procreate as such. Rather it is the instinct for survival and avoidance of suffering that is at work here.
You might think that I'm just splitting hairs, but I think this distinction is important to make because many breeders use this nonexistent "instinct to procreate" to justify giving birth. It gives them justification because they can say "hurr durr look at me I'm a stupid ape I have no other choice but to give birth ooga booga", when in reality they do it out of pure selfish interest, not out of an inherent instinct.

But animal does that too, eventhough the children only being eaten by predator. Animal(human still in animal kingdom too)just slave to the genetic code.

Unfortunately some still have 'ape brain'
they only following without critical thinking.(guess their critical thinking havent evolved yet. Lol)

But some other choose to be selfish even when they know. Because its hard to make sacrifice

Even about the threat about overpopulation people still dont care. Some organization works to raise awareness about it. And to places where many people uneducated it shows that they breed more mindlessly.
"ignorance is bliss"
But ignorance isnt a justification.

 

[LastFlowers]

The only justifiable reason to have kids is by accident, but even then several fail safes have been created in contemporary society...

Yea..getting pregnant may be an accident, but giving birth is not (unless you live on that god awful gem of a TLC program "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant")

 

[BottomlessPit]

I guess the argument against these things being proof of any lack of instinct, is the typical "normal human variance" argument, meaning diversity in the population is often a healthy thing in and of itself, a natural thing to have a minority of "unnaturals" to offset any possible issues that the majority cause or are susceptible to.

But the problem with this line of reasoning is that the numbers of childfree people are growing. If they were really just a result of the human variance mechanism, their numbers would remain relatively steady.
It can also be observed that different demographics have different percentages of childfree people. If I remember correctly, latinos in America have far more childfree people than other ethnicities. I would think that human variance impacts a species, and not single ethnicities.

This points to a shift in our ways of thinking, rather than genetic variance imo.

 

[Efilismislife]

We have chosen civilization over anarchy and chaos, why stop now?
Why revert when humans are all about being progressive, evolving, ascending..?
That's what those who procreate fail to see the contradiction in.

Theres still chaos and war tho in many places
They invest tons of money for preparation to war.
And human shield is needed to fight and killing each other...

 

[LastFlowers]

But the problem with this line of reasoning is that the numbers of childfree people are growing. If they were really just a result of the human variance mechanism, their numbers would remain relatively steady.
It can also be observed that different demographics have different percentages of childfree people. If I remember correctly, latinos in America have far more childfree people than other ethnicities. I would think that human variance impacts a species, and not single ethnicities.

This points to a shift in our ways of thinking, rather than genetic variance imo.

Oh, it wasn't my argument, just one I thought someone might bring up.
Still, to play devil's advocate, it's possible that a human variance becomes more than just a variance and begins to overtake the majority of the population, as a means to solving a problem among the previous majority. Continued evolution and all, but also-within a much shorter time frame-the genetic variance group could easily incite a pseudo-group with the simple contagion of "beliefs."
Also, it depends what you define as a human variance, as plenty of ethnicities have variances unique to their ethnicity, but still enough commonality and lack of other variances that would prevent them from being considered Homo sapiens.
So in that way, the lack of inclination to procreate could indeed be relative to a location on the globe or a specific ethnicity, unless you consider the desire to procreate necessarily applicable to every human, everywhere-rather than having the ability to be unique in expression, from person to person.

Theres still chaos and war tho in many places
They invest tons of money for preparation to war.
And human shield is needed to fight and killing each other...

In a way, the wars we wage today are organized and still indicative of a civilized group..simply fighting a different civilized group. There are places that remain uncivilized, in the way we think of the word, but for all intents and purposes, humans in general, have always moved in that direction.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I sympathise heavily with many antinatalist sentiments, but I don't subscribe to antinatalism. I think it's fine to create life, what's not fine is to forbid that life from dying if it wants to.

 

[LastFlowers]

I sympathise heavily with many antinatalist sentiments, but I don't subscribe to antinatalism. I think it's fine to create life, what's not fine is to forbid that life from dying if it wants to.

Given the choice of death or never having been born, I would choose the latter.
To be able to kill yourself after a life of misery is like a consolation prize.

 

[Efilismislife]

I sympathise heavily with many antinatalist sentiments, but I don't subscribe to antinatalism. I think it's fine to create life, what's not fine is to forbid that life from dying if it wants to.

but whats the purpose for bringing the creature into the world to suffer&die?

Given the choice of death or never having been born, I would choose the latter.
To be able to kill yourself after a life of misery is like a consolation prize.

Unless euthanasia is free and allowed its not a 'prize' because its so frustrating just to find N!

Think about it WHY THEY ALLOW FREE MINDLESS BREEDING JUST TO BRING MORE DYING PEOPLE BUT BANNED A HUMANE WAY TO EXIT? THEY SHOULD PROVIDE IT INSTEAD AS AN COMPENSATION FOR BRINGING A PERSON OUT OF THEIR CONSENT TO A TERRIBLE PLACE?

 

[Superdeterminist]

but whats the purpose for bringing the creature into the world to suffer&die?

If the universe rolls good dice for you, then there can be a lot of joy in life. I know I've had some amazing experiences here and others have told me they have too. I definitely acknowledge the suffering as well though and how awful it can be, which is why I think a right to die is essential. Some people just suffer terribly, and ALL people deserve that option.

The strongest belief I hold is that we don't have free will. That means I can't be angry at my parents for conceiving me, it wasn't a free choice of theirs. They were compelled to procreate, much the same as I am compelled to die.