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blueming

blueming

if we can stand outside the borders of time
Sep 21, 2018
248
When a person makes a suicide attempt, he is not sent to a hospital prison; instead, if he has followed proper procedures for signaling his intention, he dies. The most lethal, comfortable methods are widely available, and since suicide is fine, a competitive market arises to provide the most appealing methods. The power of the market is brought to bear on the problem of finding desirable ways to die. Not just "Ask your doctor if Obliviall is right for you," but also death arcades.

The market is a powerful instrument, and allowing it to solve the problems of suicide makes disposal relatively comfortable and efficient. No one has to cut his arteries or shoot himself fourteen times with a .22. Only rarely does someone jump off a tall building. Suicide is easy, painless, and guaranteed. Technology can go a long way toward undermining our unchosen, Nature-programmed, often irrational fixation on our own continued existence.

So everyone who wants to die may die. But to ensure that disposal is truly free, other costs must be removed from the suicide as well. Suicide has no stigma here. In kindergarten your kid's teacher has each student draw a picture on the topic of "When Would I Kill Myself?" It is very sad when children commit suicide - and many of them do, even in our world - but preventing them from doing so is not free disposal.

Many people do not want to die alone. People may sit with a dying suicide to comfort and even assist him without fear of imprisonment. Public policy allows suicides to donate their organs at a hospital. There is no organ shortage here, and since suicide isn't creepy at all, everybody wins.

Rather than spending tens of millions on suicide prevention efforts, the governing body spends money on campaigns to promote the right to suicide. Billboards, television and the internet carry the message that suicide is a sacred right, rather than the message that suicide is wrong and a sign of illness. PSAs remind people that "No One Owns You - Suicide is Your Right!" On the chance that suicide "contagion" is real and social proof removes a major cost of suicide, fictional and nonfictional accounts of successful suicides are broadcast widely in approving terms. Curricula in schools emphasize personal autonomy, vilify interpersonal possessiveness, and treat suicide as a positive life choice to be seriously considered.


These are excerpts I've taken from the book "Every Cradle is a Grave: Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide" by Sarah Perry, from the section in which she talks about a hypothetical "Land of Free Disposal" where suicide is truly free. It's not meant to describe a possible utopia - for example, I definitely don't agree with giving kindergarten children the idea and means to commit suicide when they're not old enough to understand what life and death even are. It's a thought experiment that tries to illustrate what a society that fully embraces suicide would look like, where every single person has absolute personal autonomy over their lives without any obstacles. This theoretical construct was made in response to someone called Bryan Caplan claiming that we already live in a Land of Free Disposal because according to him, there are so many tall buildings in the world we could jump off "freely" and because we don't utilize those free disposal services, life must always be worth living.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
35,287
I really wish suicide is accepted like that, it truly would be such a relief and prevent so much unnecessary suffering if peaceful methods that are guaranteed are always accessible. I despise how we exist in this hellish anti-suicide society instead where suicide is seen as the worst outcome possible even know it's the only escape from an existence so futile and undesirable.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
8,128
Interesting. Do you suppose people would stop procreating quite so much with the very real risk that their offspring my decide to opt out of life? I wish it was so easy and so accepted.
 
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lack

lack

im sorry for what i said
Sep 14, 2023
64
Interesting. Do you suppose people would stop procreating quite so much with the very real risk that their offspring my decide to opt out of life? I wish it was so easy and so accepted.
i hate the idea that would impact anyone's decision to procreate. like,.. having children should be based on the impression that you already can provide them with a life worth living. if you can't do that, don't have children for god's sake. it feels that simple to me, haha..
 
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Alexei_Kirillov

Alexei_Kirillov

Missed my appointment with Death
Mar 9, 2024
689
Interesting. Do you suppose people would stop procreating quite so much with the very real risk that their offspring my decide to opt out of life? I wish it was so easy and so accepted.
I doubt it, but I think in this hypothetical world the love parents have for their children would be more humane since it wouldn't be so possessive and, at times, deranged.
 
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U

UKscotty

Doesn't read PMs
May 20, 2021
2,451
I doubt it would make too much difference, I do think governments and medical insurance would encourage the poor and depressed to CTB to save money though.

Most people don't actually want to die, they want the suffering to stop. That's not usually the same thing.
 
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Abyssal

Abyssal

Kill me
Nov 26, 2023
1,276
A world where suicide is okay would be different not in that one factor but rather in the balances of power and beliefs that would allow for such a thing
 
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blueming

blueming

if we can stand outside the borders of time
Sep 21, 2018
248
Interesting. Do you suppose people would stop procreating quite so much with the very real risk that their offspring my decide to opt out of life? I wish it was so easy and so accepted.
I think the influence could be significant. The knowledge that their children might make such a choice could actually serve as a wake-up call and make potential parents reconsider the ethics of bringing new life into the world, or at the very least approach the decision to procreate with more caution.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

they say it’s darkest of all before the dawn
Sep 13, 2023
8,719
I honestly can't imagine what a world like that would look like. Society will never accept suicide because it hurts the economy. They need us to become slaves to the system. Can you imagine young people committing mass suicide? The economy would collapse. Society needs people to stay alive in order to enter the workforce, consume and pay taxes. Dead men pay no taxes. Everything in this world revolves around money and everything is driven by economic and monetary reasons
 
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Ironborn

Ironborn

Student
Jan 29, 2024
195
I think it would force an improvement in living standards, companies treat you like shit in our world because they know you can't afford to quit but if suicides started affecting their bottom line you know damn well they would improve pay and conditions.
Withdrawing labour is the only way to hurt these companies but at the moment they hold all the cards.
 
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H

Hunter2005

Experienced
Apr 15, 2023
202
Honestly I don't think the elites would like that honestly. I mean the chance of losing a wage slave, they're going to go crazy.
 
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M

martinso67

All human rights are important
Feb 5, 2021
222
I think anti natalism (which I am against it) is more likely to be accepted in society, than suicide
 
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blueming

blueming

if we can stand outside the borders of time
Sep 21, 2018
248
I doubt it would make too much difference, I do think governments and medical insurance would encourage the poor and depressed to CTB to save money though.

Most people don't actually want to die, they want the suffering to stop. That's not usually the same thing.
"I doubt it would make too much difference" are you referring the the impact on suicide rates? If so, I disagree. I think suicide rates might in fact skyrocket. Suicide is already one of the leading causes of death globally with over 700,000 people dying each year and it's estimated there are 25 attempts for 1 death, which would be approximately 17-18 million attempts each year. Many might not attempt at all out of fear of pain or the risk of a failed attempt that could leave them in a worse state. In such a world where that's not a concern and where peaceful, guaranteed methods are available for everyone, I think people would be rushing to get in line.

And yes, people primarily want the suffering to stop. But even the best lives contain a substantial amount of suffering and that's inevitable. In cases of severe suffering - whether it be mental or physical - death and the ability to choose a peaceful end might be seen as the only way out. In such cases, the distinction between wanting to stop suffering and wanting to die can blur. I understand the distinction you're trying to draw but it doesn't necessarily negate the potential impact of a hypothetical "Land of Free Disposal".

I honestly can't imagine what a world like that would look like. Society will never accept suicide because it hurts the economy. They need us to become slaves to the system. Can you imagine young people committing mass suicide? The economy would collapse. Society needs people to stay alive in order to enter the workforce, consume and pay taxes. Dead men pay no taxes. Everything in this world revolves around money and everything is driven by economic and monetary reasons
I definitely agree with all the points you made - given the current state of our society and economy, something like this seems far off. It's nice to theorize and dream about though.

Oh this actually reminds me of a thread of yours I saw! The one about AI being an existential threat, I think? If AI were to replace the majority of humans in the workforce, perhaps then there's a sliver of a chance such a world could come into existence. In that scenario, the economic necessity for human labor could diminish and potentially make room for a society where life and death decisions are more autonomous and less economically driven.
 
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situationalsui

situationalsui

Member
Mar 1, 2023
59
From where I am right now, sounds like paradise. Would need to be balanced with robust problem solving skills being taught, especially to young people.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

they say it’s darkest of all before the dawn
Sep 13, 2023
8,719
Honestly I don't think the elites would like that honestly. I mean the chance of losing a wage slave, they're going to go crazy.
Literally
 
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blueming

blueming

if we can stand outside the borders of time
Sep 21, 2018
248
I think it would force an improvement in living standards, companies treat you like shit in our world because they know you can't afford to quit but if suicides started affecting their bottom line you know damn well they would improve pay and conditions.
Withdrawing labour is the only way to hurt these companies but at the moment they hold all the cards.
I would love to see this happen. Obviously I don't mean the mass suicides; in an ideal world no one should have to resort to such extremes to force change. However the incidental benefit of taking away the overwhelming leverage companies currently hold over their employees and pushing them to prioritize the wellbeing of their workforce sounds like a positive outcome of such a hypothetical society.
 
pthnrdnojvsc

pthnrdnojvsc

Extreme Pain is much worse than people know
Aug 12, 2019
2,153
When a person makes a suicide attempt, he is not sent to a hospital prison; instead, if he has followed proper procedures for signaling his intention, he dies. The most lethal, comfortable methods are widely available, and since suicide is fine, a competitive market arises to provide the most appealing methods. The power of the market is brought to bear on the problem of finding desirable ways to die. Not just "Ask your doctor if Obliviall is right for you," but also death arcades.

The market is a powerful instrument, and allowing it to solve the problems of suicide makes disposal relatively comfortable and efficient. No one has to cut his arteries or shoot himself fourteen times with a .22. Only rarely does someone jump off a tall building. Suicide is easy, painless, and guaranteed. Technology can go a long way toward undermining our unchosen, Nature-programmed, often irrational fixation on our own continued existence.

So everyone who wants to die may die. But to ensure that disposal is truly free, other costs must be removed from the suicide as well. Suicide has no stigma here. In kindergarten your kid's teacher has each student draw a picture on the topic of "When Would I Kill Myself?" It is very sad when children commit suicide - and many of them do, even in our world - but preventing them from doing so is not free disposal.

Many people do not want to die alone. People may sit with a dying suicide to comfort and even assist him without fear of imprisonment. Public policy allows suicides to donate their organs at a hospital. There is no organ shortage here, and since suicide isn't creepy at all, everybody wins.

Rather than spending tens of millions on suicide prevention efforts, the governing body spends money on campaigns to promote the right to suicide. Billboards, television and the internet carry the message that suicide is a sacred right, rather than the message that suicide is wrong and a sign of illness. PSAs remind people that "No One Owns You - Suicide is Your Right!" On the chance that suicide "contagion" is real and social proof removes a major cost of suicide, fictional and nonfictional accounts of successful suicides are broadcast widely in approving terms. Curricula in schools emphasize personal autonomy, vilify interpersonal possessiveness, and treat suicide as a positive life choice to be seriously considered.


These are excerpts I've taken from the book "Every Cradle is a Grave: Rethinking the Ethics of Birth and Suicide" by Sarah Perry, from the section in which she talks about a hypothetical "Land of Free Disposal" where suicide is truly free. It's not meant to describe a possible utopia - for example, I definitely don't agree with giving kindergarten children the idea and means to commit suicide when they're not old enough to understand what life and death even are. It's a thought experiment that tries to illustrate what a society that fully embraces suicide would look like, where every single person has absolute personal autonomy over their lives without any obstacles. This theoretical construct was made in response to someone called Bryan Caplan claiming that we already live in a Land of Free Disposal because according to him, there are so many tall buildings in the world we could jump off "freely" and because we don't utilize those free disposal services, life must always be worth living.
That's a great book by sarah Perry.

There really would be suicide booths , arcades, assisted suicide etc. if they hadn't made all that crimes.

and as she describes this world is a suicide prohibition state.

They created not only legal but social constraints all of them made up fiction . Why fiction ? because none of their justifications for restricting suicide so much is objective truth. the only truth i see is that extreme pain and extreme suffering is bad. And what's the way to avoid that ? Answer a guaranteed suicide method to become non-existent. Only in non-existence forever is a human guranteed never to suffer extreme pain or any kind of pain or suffering
 
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