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Zzzzz

Zzzzz

Nothing compares to the bliss of death.
Aug 8, 2018
879
Humanity is a deluded species. That's a big part of why there's no legal right to die. Because people are religious. Roughly 2 billion christians. 2.2 billion Muslims. 1 billion Hindus. Etc,etc. Most of the world is religious in some way. Most of the world is delusional. There's no evidence that the universe was created and that said creator would found a particular religion. It's obvious that religion was created by people as a means to gain power and perhaps other more survival-oriented reasons,but it speaks nothing about TRUTH. people don't get it, if LIES and DELUSIONS are what people need to make it through the day, is life fucking good? No! If it was most of the world would not be PRAYING to their God for ARMAGEDDON to happen. Most religious people passively or actively want the world as we know it to end. That's because even they know it's shit!
 
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jimmy7754

jimmy7754

I just want to be myself again
Dec 15, 2021
508
Viking Cruises are a world class experience!
 
Rational man

Rational man

Enlightened
Oct 19, 2021
1,485
There is No God, at least not in the way that religions portray. There is no final judgement Nor resurrection. I believe in the comic god, the creator and energy source. We came from that source and we return to it. We are god and extension of the universe. We have nothing to fear in death as it is guaranteed for everyone. Humankind is a failed species and is on the path to destruction anyways.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
Religion has kept people breeding and identifying with a group for many thousands of years. In a way it's very rational to make your genes multiply through delusion when that's what you set up to achieve from the start.

But you're right, it's not PURELY rational. By definition, it's irrational. Like Jason Brennan said, ignorance can be rationally irrational. Meaning that the "rational" thing to believe or do can be that which serves your interests the most.

However, pure atheism is also completely retarded. There is obvious design and intent behind our reality, and an incredibly detailed and complex system doesn't just pop out of nothingness and starts running it's functions, loops and conditionals all by itself.
 
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L

lonleycrowdedwest

im so dumb i misspelled lonely
Aug 16, 2021
127
Humanity is a deluded species. That's a big part of why there's no legal right to die. Because people are religious. Roughly 2 billion christians. 2.2 billion Muslims. 1 billion Hindus. Etc,etc. Most of the world is religious in some way. Most of the world is delusional. There's no evidence that the universe was created and that said creator would found a particular religion. It's obvious that religion was created by people as a means to gain power and perhaps other more survival-oriented reasons,but it speaks nothing about TRUTH. people don't get it, if LIES and DELUSIONS are what people need to make it through the day, is life fucking good? No! If it was most of the world would not be PRAYING to their God for ARMAGEDDON to happen. Most religious people passively or actively want the world as we know it to end. That's because even they know it's shit!
I Think the right to die isn't 100% religions fault. We are the only species on earth that knowingly commits suicide in a rational manner. That doesn't mean we can/are fully understanding the wish to die. When almost everyone is vehemently afraid of death when someone wants to end their life it's scares them. We have no fascination with death, we just have no fascination with life either.
 
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Zzzzz

Zzzzz

Nothing compares to the bliss of death.
Aug 8, 2018
879
Religion has kept people breeding and identifying with a group for many thousands of years. In a way it's very rational to make your genes multiply through delusion when that's what you set up to achieve from the start.

But you're right, it's not PURELY rational. By definition, it's irrational. Like Jason Brennan said, ignorance can be rationally irrational. Meaning that the "rational" thing to believe or do can be that which serves your interests the most.

However, pure atheism is also completely retarded. There is obvious design and intent behind our reality, and an incredibly detailed and complex system doesn't just pop out of nothingness and starts running it's functions, loops and conditionals all by itself.


Yes. You're right about the practical benefits of religion.I should say religion is false/a lie rather than irrational. How dubious is life that falsehoods and illusions are the norm and actually benefit people!
 
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LastFlowers

LastFlowers

the haru that can read
Apr 27, 2019
2,170
Religion has kept people breeding and identifying with a group for many thousands of years. In a way it's very rational to make your genes multiply through delusion when that's what you set up to achieve from the start.

But you're right, it's not PURELY rational. By definition, it's irrational. Like Jason Brennan said, ignorance can be rationally irrational. Meaning that the "rational" thing to believe or do can be that which serves your interests the most.

However, pure atheism is also completely retarded. There is obvious design and intent behind our reality, and an incredibly detailed and complex system doesn't just pop out of nothingness and starts running it's functions, loops and conditionals all by itself.
How do you know there is "obvious design and intent behind our reality"..?
Does an "incredibly detailed and complex system" need obvious design and intent to come into existence?
Nobody ever said it wasn't rare, but impossible?
There doesn't have to be a man behind the machine, especially when it's organic.

I believe rationality in the sense OP is speaking means appreciative of reality, not wishful thinking or tunnel vision and mental gymnastics utilized to achieve one's goals.
 
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T

Ta555

Enlightened
Aug 31, 2021
1,317
Religion is just a primitive way to control society.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
How do you know there is "obvious design and intent behind our reality"..?
Does an "incredibly detailed and complex system" need obvious design and intent to come into existence?
Nobody ever said it wasn't rare, but impossible?
There doesn't have to be a man behind the machine, especially when it's organic.

I believe rationality in the sense OP is speaking means appreciative of reality, not wishful thinking or tunnel vision and mental gymnastics utilized to achieve one's goals.
Yes, as I understand it something cannot come from nothing, and life, being the mysterious impulse that it is, was set in motion by something similar to it, an intent, just like children are born because the parents followed an irresistible urge. Then the gametes carry that intent, that enigmatic will, which results in a new life. Genes seem to be a physical aspect of this intent that created life.

I understand it's fashionable among nihilists to be ontologically blind, but you are just shooting yourselves in the foot. Life didn't come from nothing and doesn't go to nothing when you die. If you think it through you'll see that the very concepts of "nothingness" and "chaos/chance" refer to something that only exists in your head, because it doesn't exist.

By the way, this doesn't necessarily negate an antinatalist or efilist stance on existence. I happen to be wary of the intent that created life, since some of it's inherent fruits taste really sour (the food chain, parasites, the constant need and struggle for water, sleep, companionship, resources, long etc). Life is very hard, even normies admit as much. Some folks just go a step further and directly declare that the effort you put in doesn't reward you with enough rewards, so death is better.

I couldn't say where I stand. You gotta admit that trying to see the bright side of life has its benefits, it's not all delusion. I'm just wired to contemplate the dark side.
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
642
who says when somebody died they just disappeared? theres no theory stated that. Its not magic...

Its obvious when people die they rot and create another form of life: maggot
every rotten creatures will create those to replace it.
Also when decomposing become fertilizer.
like animal become food in the stomach

And about the origin of live: evolution
Life didn't come from nothing and doesn't go to nothing when you die. If you think it through you'll see that the very concepts of "nothingness" and "chaos/chance" refer to something that only exists in your head, because it doesn't exist.


You gotta admit that trying to see the bright side of life has its benefits, it's not all delusion. I'm just wired to contemplate the dark side.
Its more of a 'distraction' to run away from the pain. Not benefit.

Denial is a basic coping mechanism to run away from the truth that hurt you

But its beating around the bush. Not a solution
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
its already obvious

When people die they rot and create another form of life: maggot
every rotten creatures will create those to replace it.
Also when decomposing become fertilizer.
like animal become food in the stomach

And about the origin of live: evolution

Its more of a 'distraction' to run away from the pain. Not benefit.

Denial is a basic coping mechanism to run away from the truth that hurt you

But its beating around the bush. Not a solution
Lol, and evolution came from...?

You can do better.
 
Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
642
Lol, and evolution came from...?

You can do better.
Evolution is a process

Same as how maggot is created when a creature died and become a corpse
decomposing is the process

Or fermentation creates bacteria

Its a process
The circle of life
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
Evolution is a process

Same as how maggot is created when a creature died and become a corpse
decomposing is the process

Or fermentation creates bacteria

Its a process
The circle of life
But calling names to something isn't explaining how it came to be. Decomposition has known causes, we know how it starts and how it ends.

We don't know how evolution started or how it ends. Of course that it's a process, but processes are an unknown if we don't know why they happen or why they stop happening.

Let's put this bluntly: how did inorganic matter become organic? How did that which is not alive become alive?
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
642
But calling names to something isn't explaining how it came to be. Decomposition has known causes, we know how it starts and how it ends.

We don't know how evolution started or how it ends. Of course that it's a process, but processes are an unknown if we don't know why they happen or why they stop happening.

Let's put this bluntly: how did inorganic matter become organic? How did that which is not alive become alive?
See: the origin and evolution of cell

just because you dont know it doesnt mean it all fall into magic or superstitious doesnt it?

like long ago many disease thought to be a curse from devil when theres a virus
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
See: the origin and evolution of cell

just because you dont know it doesnt mean it all fall into magic isnt it?

like long ago many disease thought to be a curse from devil when theres a virus
I'm not proposing magical theories. Proposing that a highly sophisticated, self-propagating system has a design or an intent behind is very sound, not illogical.

It's more illogical to ascribe it's existence to chance, just like if we enter a room and see a tower of chairs stacked we'd rather infer someone stacked them that think that person threw chairs randomly and they "magically" stacked.

Now, I have to admit that not knowing the origin of life doesn't mean my theories are correct, but what I say is that they let the door open for them to be right. There is a difference there.
 
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D

Deleted member 8579

Enlightened
Apr 28, 2021
1,323
It's more illogical to ascribe it's existence to chance, just like if we enter a room and see a tower of chairs stacked we'd rather infer someone stacked them that think that person threw chairs randomly and they "magically" stacked.
You have to concede that the chance exists that a person throwing chairs could accidentally stack them. The probability of this happening is extremely small, but it does exist. If you repeat this experiment often enough, it is bound to happen eventually. If you entered just one room and the chairs in it were stacked, it would indeed be most rational to assume intent behind it. However, if you entered billions of rooms and the chairs were scattered around in all but one, you would assume that in the single room where they are stacked this structure came to be by accident, an aberration if you will.
Now, I have to admit that not knowing the origin of life doesn't mean my theories are correct, but what I say is that they let the door open for them to be right. There is a difference there.
There is no such thing as "believing a little bit": If you don't fully believe something, you lack belief by definition.
It is very possible to believe in the existence of some god who exists outside the realm of our experience.
However, is the existence of an unknown, abstract, imperceptible god not indistinguishable from the absence of one?
How does one approach the task of verifying his existence?
A physicist can cherish the belief that there is a grand unifying formula that unites all branches of physics. He doesn't know what it looks like or even whether it exists at all, but he can search for it.
What sets this quest apart from the search for a god is that the physicists have the scientific method at their disposal and they are working in a (mostly) well-defined framework.
These tools are not available to those who search for a god. Attempting to use them would amount to a category error: "God does not exist because his existence cannot be scientifically proven" is a nonsensical argument.
Is then not all we are left with blind faith?
Given the choice of blindly believing or not believing at all, why should one choose the former?
Personally, I have never been one for blindly believing in anything, so unless I am presented with convincing evidence, I will always opt for nonbelief as my default position.
Some theories may seem more plausible than others, but if they are unfalsifiable their apparent plausibility does not change the fact that blindly believing in them is all one can do.
 
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Un-

Un-

I'm a failure. An absolute waste. A LOSEr.
Apr 6, 2021
652
Disunity thrives in extremities.
 
Y

YourNeighbor

Arcanist
Jul 22, 2021
423
"Everyone is deluded. I, on the other hand, am a fount of truth."
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
You have to concede that the chance exists that a person throwing chairs could accidentally stack them. The probability of this happening is extremely small, but it does exist. If you repeat this experiment often enough, it is bound to happen eventually. If you entered just one room and the chairs in it were stacked, it would indeed be most rational to assume intent behind it. However, if you entered billions of rooms and the chairs were scattered around in all but one, you would assume that in the single room where they are stacked this structure came to be by accident, an aberration if you will.

There is no such thing as "believing a little bit": If you don't fully believe something, you lack belief by definition.
It is very possible to believe in the existence of some god who exists outside the realm of our experience.
However, is the existence of an unknown, abstract, imperceptible god not indistinguishable from the absence of one?
How does one approach the task of verifying his existence?
A physicist can cherish the belief that there is a grand unifying formula that unites all branches of physics. He doesn't know what it looks like or even whether it exists at all, but he can search for it.
What sets this quest apart from the search for a god is that the physicists have the scientific method at their disposal and they are working in a (mostly) well-defined framework.
These tools are not available to those who search for a god. Attempting to use them would amount to a category error: "God does not exist because his existence cannot be scientifically proven" is a nonsensical argument.
Is then not all we are left with blind faith?
Given the choice of blindly believing or not believing at all, why should one choose the former?
Personally, I have never been one for blindly believing in anything, so unless I am presented with convincing evidence, I will always opt for nonbelief as my default position.
Some theories may seem more plausible than others, but if they are unfalsifiable their apparent plausibility does not change the fact that blindly believing in them is all one can do.

Let the philosophical bloodsports begin!

1. Allegation: "When you try an infinite number of times something that IS possible, but is very unlikely to happen, eventually it happens, which to someone that does not take into account the infinite number of trials would seem like the product of intent or intelligent design".

Notice how I uppercased "is" in the allegation. This is crucial, because in your first argument it is implicitly assumed that the event that we are arguing about (the emergence of life) is something that can happen randomly when tried enough times (10 billion years x seconds in every year = 435 quadrillion times assuming each second it was tried). But herein lies the fallacy, which I served to you in a silver plate, admittedly: it's very easy, and would take much less than a quadrillion times, to get stuff stacked, but not to get stuff that is stacked and from that point on can stack more stuff on it's own, and with each generation devise much more functions than stacking. So you are right in dismantling my analogy, it just so happens that life is a very different type of event than a simple unlikely, static happenstance like things getting piled up. Life is a dynamic, self-perpetuating, self-perfecting event. We don't know anything like it.

2. Allegation: "You either believe in something, or think it is real or you don't. There are no nuances in terms of knowledge or belief".

This is illogical. Knowledge and belief are quite probabilistic in terms of how we invest in them. Many things we do are based in things we think are possible, but might not exist or happen at all.
But this takes us to a fallacy you fall into, a strawman.

3. Allegation: "You are arguing for the existence of God and believing in such God in blind faith".

Not quite, no. I am arguing for the possibility of intent or design (or just a "supernatural" origin) behind the beginning of life, a kind of event that seems to have only happened once and that we cannot repeat or understand. The idea of an anthropomorphic God is infantile. Now, you cant prove that life came about by coincidence, because you cannot prove your idea that trying enough times the inert elements in the Universe would become alive. We haven't seen this, we can't reproduce it. I argue that your idea that life came about by chance is also infalsifiable, just as the idea of God (particularly in the usual terms) seems to be infalsifiable scientifically.

We couldn't even simulate the emergence of life with a program, since we don't know how inert matter becomes organic. That parameter is missing. What we are talking about is so complex that we cannot yet emulate it with automatons, but even if we did we would have only proven that a self-perpetuating, self-perfecting system of multiplying entities can be DESIGNED or CREATED (as we did), certainly not that it can happen by chance. And our automatons wouldn't even be sentient at that point, and I doubt we could ever make them with materialistic means.
 
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NormaJeane

NormaJeane

Member
Mar 24, 2021
648
Humanity is a deluded species. That's a big part of why there's no legal right to die. Because people are religious. Roughly 2 billion christians. 2.2 billion Muslims. 1 billion Hindus. Etc,etc. Most of the world is religious in some way. Most of the world is delusional. There's no evidence that the universe was created and that said creator would found a particular religion. It's obvious that religion was created by people as a means to gain power and perhaps other more survival-oriented reasons,but it speaks nothing about TRUTH. people don't get it, if LIES and DELUSIONS are what people need to make it through the day, is life fucking good? No! If it was most of the world would not be PRAYING to their God for ARMAGEDDON to happen. Most religious people passively or actively want the world as we know it to end. That's because even they know it's shit!
Our laws are based on religion, but most people where I live are not religious. Murder is the worst crime one can commit, human life should only be prolonged no matter how life turns out and no matter what we want. Many of our laws are stupid and should be changed and our laws are stupid because people are stupid. God is an illusion! The simplest explanation is that there is no God - no one created the universe and no one decides our fate, Stephen Hawking said. We live in a world where our pets are treated better than humans. I am expected to suffer for decades, I am expected to die of old age, the worst death. I have to shorten my life if I want to die with dignity, but the body is not created to kill itself so it is difficult.
 
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ElderRecluse

ElderRecluse

Member
Dec 21, 2021
28
I'm not aware of any religion that believes a god created a single organic cell and then let evolution take over from there. Evolution is well established in science. The naysayers of evolutions, like the naysayers of climate change, are a small percentage of scientist.

I really like one persons tale of something he realized on his journey into atheism. He spoke of how we are intertained on the large screen with actions and sword fights of ancient religions that are no longer practiced. He goes on to say that today's religions will be the big screen intertainment of tomorrow.
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
642
a "supernatural" origin) behind the beginning of life,


thats what people called God.
If thats your believe,
Is God omnipotent? whats your definition of God then? Where did God come from?
whats the purpose of creating all this?
wheres God now? Did God control everything?

You dont just stop there and saying everything begins from God. Thats bias.
just like how you said the first cell isnt the beginning of life and keep questioning the origin to everything
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
642

Love is only a word. but whats the definition to it?
its describing a feeling but where does that feeling come from?
Its a chemical inside peoples brain

Its an urge, it shows affection. But theres different types of love.

one type of love between lover is what people use as a reason to reproduce

its only a tool to reproduce that nature create that euphoria so human keep reproducing
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
642
If life really is a blessing and a gift. There would be no suicide and this forum wont be created in the first place?

the fact that many people are sufferings, many children are suffering and brought into this world by their abusive parents just to suffer and die shows how horrible this world is and people who say that life is a blessing only being bias/blinded by delusion, neglecting people who are suffering

How many people wish not being brought in the world to suffer or regret theyre being brought into existence to suffer

 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
I'm not aware of any religion that believes a god created a single organic cell and then let evolution take over from there. Evolution is well established in science. The naysayers of evolutions, like the naysayers of climate change, are a small percentage of scientist.

I really like one persons tale of something he realized on his journey into atheism. He spoke of how we are intertained on the large screen with actions and sword fights of ancient religions that are no longer practiced. He goes on to say that today's religions will be the big screen intertainment of tomorrow.
Strawman fallacies are very boring. Nobody in this thread said that he or she was religious, and neither that his or her religion is about a mixture of evolution and theism.
thats what people called God.
If thats your believe,
Is God omnipotent? whats your definition of God then? Where did God come from?
whats the purpose of creating all this?
wheres God now? Did God control everything?

You dont just stop there and saying everything begins from God. Thats bias.
just like how you said the first cell isnt the beginning of life and keep questioning the origin to everything
I know my posts in here are long, but in no moment I actually argued for the traditional idea of God, only against braindead pseudoscientific nihilism. My posture is more agnosticism fused with pantheism. Our world is an incredible machine which has come from a chain of events that carried an intent from the Big Bang or whatever it was.

Your ideas amount to saying that just as there is something there could be nothing, but that is false. From the very first chain of causes the consequences and causes can be known, and are completely determined. Just like burying a seed in the soil will result in a tree, so the first moments of the Universe were destined to produce life.
 
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ElderRecluse

ElderRecluse

Member
Dec 21, 2021
28
Just like burying a seed in the soil will result in a tree, so the first moments of the Universe were destined to produce life.
And you kniow this, how?
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,913
And you kniow this, how?
My argument here was that since everything that has happened had to happen (from the first cause all causes follow necessarily), then the Universe was destined to produce life. This doesn't prove anything supernatural going on, but it's a good starting point to start pondering.
 
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I

ihatemylife

Student
Jul 14, 2021
140
In my opinion religion is completely irrational. There are hundreds of religions with different beliefs and each one believes wholeheartedly that their religion is correct. Well someone must be wrong in that group. To me religion is for people who need to believe that they have a reason for being here and their life means something and a "God" loves them. Some people can't face the truth. If it works for them great but I find that irrational. Another point is that these people who believe there is a heaven but yet will do everything n their power to prolong their life. I don't know about other people but if I knew I would die and go to a place where I was in eternal bliss I would be begging for death, not fighting it. Not to mention the people who say they believe with all their heart there is a God and this life is a test but live their lives no differntly than the average non believer. If they really believe that why are they wasting time with jobs, buying houses and luxury items. I would be a missionary and not worry about money since this God would just miraculously provide for me.- So the whole thing doesn't make any sense to me. Just my view.
 
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