Discussion WARNING: WELFARE CHECKS FOR SN ORDERS ARE GOING TO START HAPPENING INTERNATIONALLY!

[pharmacoepia]

(I apologize for the caps and bold text, but this is seriously urgent.)

The CBC has confirmed that Peel Police and the RCMP (the Canadian version of the FBI) are sending alerts to 40 countries, and Scotland Yard has already confirmed that they will be conducting welfare checks in the United Kingdom soon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...ice-probe-sudden-deaths-kenneth-law-1.6837735

There is a serious risk of all purchasers of Kenneth Law's companies being subject to unconstitutional searches. There is a real possibility of police abusing their power in this situation, especially against mentally ill people.

Your rights:

• DO NOT PUT SN IN PLAIN SIGHT. THIS GIVES POLICE THE POTENTIAL TO SEARCH YOUR HOUSE UNDER PLAIN SIGHT PROVISIONS.
• IF THEY DO NOT HAVE A WARRANT, SIMPLY STATE THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT AND DO NOT LET THEM IN UNLESS THEY HAVE ANY OTHER REASONS TO.
• IF THEY HAVE A WARRANT, CHECK WHAT THEY WERE GIVEN TO SEARCH. MOST WARRANTS FORBID FULL-HOUSE SEARCHES AND ONLY ALLOW SEARCHES OF SPECIFIC AREAS OF HOUSES OR SPECIFIC OBJECTS SUCH AS JARS.
• IF YOU ARE BEING SEARCHED, STAY SILENT. ANNOUNCE YOUR RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT SINCE NOT SAYING THIS COULD LEAVE YOU VULNERABLE TO ADVERSE INFERENCE.
• IF YOU ARE SUSPECTED OF USING SN FOR ANY NEFARIOUS PURPOSE, GET A PUBLIC DEFENDANT AND ATTEMPT TO PROVE THAT IT IS UNREASONABLE TO EXPECT EVERYONE WITH SN TO BE USING IT FOR SUICIDE!

Kenneth Law Did Nothing Wrong.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I would add, that at least in the US, if you are visited by LE, and it is clear that they don't have a warrant to search your house, but they ask you to come outside, such as onto the porch, DON'T DO IT. Simply tell them you are fine talking to them through the door. And keep your door closed enough so that they can't look directly in to your house and "fabricate" a phony reason to enter your house.

 

[OceanBlue]

Thanks for the update.

"Just look out," she said. "Watch warning signs and try to get the person help."

They are so annoying. SN is the biggest help when there are no other ways to leave peacefully. They enjoy keeping us prisoners.

Do you know who KL's lawyer is? Can we find out how he's doing? I am also with #KLDNW

 

[pharmacoepia]

I would add, that at least in the US, if you are visited by LE, and it is clear that they don't have a warrant to search your house, but they ask you to come outside, such as onto the porch, DON'T DO IT. Simply tell them you are fine talking to them through the door. And keep your door closed enough so that they can't look directly in to your house and "fabricate" a phony reason to enter your house.

Yes! I almost forgot, MAKE THEM SLIP THE WARRANT UNDER THE DOOR BEFORE OPENING IT.

 

[yive]

no right to leave = prison/torture/slavery/rape, life shouldn't be a prison #KLDNW

 

[pharmacoepia]

Thanks for the update.

"Just look out," she said. "Watch warning signs and try to get the person help."

They are so annoying. SN is the biggest help when there are no other ways to leave peacefully. They enjoy keeping us prisoners.

Do you know who KL's lawyer is? Can we find out how he's doing? I am also with #KLDNW

I tried my best to look it up, but it appears the court case is under a publication plan. Your best bet your support would be to spread the word.

 

[RainAndSadness]

You're two weeks late, the article you're referring to has been published on May 10th. Most of these visits have already happened but yeah, as you said, there are no legal grounds to seize the SN. It's a legal product. Exit International confirmed the same here and they also came to the conclusion, that these welfare checks are meant to scare people and nothing else. This entire ordeal is just absurd. They should stop harassing innocent and law-abiding citizens.

 

[pharmacoepia]

You're two weeks late, the article you're referring to has been published on May 10th. Most of these visits have already happened but yeah, as you said, there are no legal grounds to seize the SN. It's a legal product. Exit International confirmed the same here and they also came to the conclusion, that these welfare checks are meant to scare people and nothing else. This entire ordeal is just absurd. They should stop harassing innocent and law-abiding citizens.

I apologize then. I was attempting to spread awareness. Do you think deleting the post might be the best option?

 

[RainAndSadness]

I apologize then. I was attempting to spread awareness. Do you think deleting the post might be the best option?

I think it's fine because you includes some good advice too and it's important that people realize they do not need to hand over a legally purchased substance but it's your decision.

 

[pharmacoepia]

I think it's fine because you includes some good advice too and it's important that people realize they do not need to hand over a legally purchased substance but it's your decision.

I'll keep it since I haven't seen valid legal advice been given yet. Plus, a lot of people are liking the post which suggests to me a significant population who are unaware. If even one person is saved from unconstitutional search by the post, it is worth the thousands of "this is outdated" comments.

 

[Whale_bones]

You're two weeks late, the article you're referring to has been published on May 10th. Most of these visits have already happened but yeah, as you said, there are no legal grounds to seize the SN. It's a legal product. Exit International confirmed the same here and they also came to the conclusion, that these welfare checks are meant to scare people and nothing else. This entire ordeal is just absurd. They should stop harassing innocent and law-abiding citizens.

In the U.S., regardless of the fact that SN is legal, many states have laws that give a police officer the right to immediately remove many of a citizen's legal rights, without even consulting with a healthcare professional of any kind. You don't have a right to contact a lawyer when this happens, you don't even have the right to make a phone call to anyone. You are under physical custody of the police officer from that moment. If the cop has already decided what to do before they even get there, it doesn't matter if you clearly and calmly state you have no intention whatsoever to harm yourself, no intention to CTB, have no dangerous substances, etc.

All of the stories I've seen posted on here are of polite, reasonable cops who just talked to people. While I'm sure that's what happened to many, from my experience I think there are certainly others who experienced a horrific ordeal, and aren't sharing it because it's too distressing, fear of further involvement from law enforcement, or they never made it past that ordeal. I just don't want the impression to be that they're "only doing this to scare people" and no permanent damage was caused. That's not the case at all. This will have lasting damage for me and I am thinking of anyone else who experienced the same and feels they must remain silent, I want them to know they are not alone.

 

[unnormal9]

This happened a few weeks ago.

Yeah. This shit has passed already. I still have mine, no visits, nor will.
And KL did do wrong: He spoke.

 

[melwarson]

I would add, that at least in the US, if you are visited by LE, and it is clear that they don't have a warrant to search your house, but they ask you to come outside, such as onto the porch, DON'T DO IT. Simply tell them you are fine talking to them through the door. And keep your door closed enough so that they can't look directly in to your house and "fabricate" a phony reason to enter your house.

In the US a warrant from a judge or probable cause is necessary. Don't talk to the police. Say you will talk to them with an attorney.

 

[unnormal9]

In the US a warrant from a judge or probable cause is necessary. Don't talk to the police. Say you will talk to them with an attorney.

That I can't afford.
Don't speak to this bussy pigs at all. Let em' die out there, like they let us.

 

[melwarson]

In the U.S., regardless of the fact that SN is legal, many states have laws that give a police officer the right to immediately remove many of a citizen's legal rights, without even consulting with a healthcare professional of any kind. You don't have a right to contact a lawyer when this happens, you don't even have the right to make a phone call to anyone. You are under physical custody of the police officer from that moment. If the cop has already decided what to do before they even get there, it doesn't matter if you clearly and calmly state you have no intention whatsoever to harm yourself, no intention to CTB, have no dangerous substances, etc.

All of the stories I've seen posted on here are of polite, reasonable cops who just talked to people. While I'm sure that's what happened to many, from my experience I think there are certainly others who experienced a horrific ordeal, and aren't sharing it because it's too distressing, fear of further involvement from law enforcement, or they never made it past that ordeal. I just don't want the impression to be that they're "only doing this to scare people" and no permanent damage was caused. That's not the case at all. This will have lasting damage for me and I am thinking of anyone else who experienced the same and feels they must remain silent, I want them to know they are not alone.

I used to work in law enforcement. That's against the law for the police to do that. They can only search you or your vehicle etc if they have probable cause. Or they could have a search warrant from a judge but that's unlikely. You are always allowed your right to an attorney and your right to be silent.

That I can't afford.
Don't speak to this bussy pigs at all. Let em' die out there, like they let us.

If they want to talk to you at the police station you have the right to a public defense attorney at no expense.

 

[unnormal9]

I used to work in law enforcement. That's against the law for the police to do that. They can only search you or your vehicle etc if they have probable cause. Or they could have a search warrant from a judge but that's unlikely. You are always allowed your right to an attorney and your right to be silent.

If they want to talk to you at the police station you have the right to a public defense attorney at no expense.

The right to remain dead.

 

[Wowser]

The cops took my IC SN a few weeks ago. One day later, I bought more SN from Poland, lol.

 

[befree]

That's why I keep telling Europeans not to order outside the EU. There are enough sources in the EU. I would even say most sources. Parcels sent from one EU country to another EU country are not controlled by customs.

 

[melwarson]

The right to remain dead.

I'm not sure what you mean. Lol. But I was on the records part of law enforcement. Not a police officer.

 

[GasMonkey]

Old news bro.
Police came to my house almost 1 month ago LOL.

 

[unnormal9]

I'm not sure what you mean. Lol. But I was on the records part of law enforcement. Not a police officer.

Pretty obvious. The right to die and stay dead. (i.e. a DNR)

 

[LaVieEnRose]

All of the stories I've seen posted on here are of polite, reasonable cops who just talked to people. While I'm sure that's what happened to many, from my experience I think there are certainly others who experienced a horrific ordeal, and aren't sharing it because it's too distressing, fear of further involvement from law enforcement, or they never made it past that ordeal. I just don't want the impression to be that they're "only doing this to scare people" and no permanent damage was caused. That's not the case at all. This will have lasting damage for me and I am thinking of anyone else who experienced the same and feels they must remain silent, I want them to know they are not alone.

Oh yes, it was never really about our "welfare" lol.

 

[FuneralCry]

I remember reading many posts about this a couple of weeks ago, it's such a horrible situation and it disgusts me what has been happening to people. Those who don't wish to suffer don't deserve to be punished for it, it's inhumane to want to make people prisoners to this existence until they are tortured by old age and die anyway.

 

[Valky]

That's why I keep telling Europeans not to order outside the EU. There are enough sources in the EU. I would even say most sources. Parcels sent from one EU country to another EU country are not controlled by customs.

What does that have to do with KL? I don't see the connection here /srs

 

[Whale_bones]

I used to work in law enforcement. That's against the law for the police to do that. They can only search you or your vehicle etc if they have probable cause. Or they could have a search warrant from a judge but that's unlikely. You are always allowed your right to an attorney and your right to be silent.

I'm not referring to searching specifically, and this isn't a criminal act. This is when law enforcement uses "mental health" laws to take physical custody of a person. This is an example of the law in Connecticut:

"A police officer may take a person with psychiatric disabilities into custody and deliver him to a general hospital on a court warrant or reasonable belief that the person meets the criteria for emergency commitment."

This "reasonable belief" gives police officers the right to make their own decisions about something they have absolutely no training, experience or education in. They are not healthcare workers, they have zero education or certifications in mental health. Yet these laws are written vaguely enough that they give police officers incredibly wide berth to do things that would otherwise be considered completely unconstitutional. They don't have to have any evidence to deem someone as "a danger to themself", because they're the only one there (and honestly, they know the people they're doing this to are already vulnerable, suffering and don't have the money/resources to report the things they did later, so they know they have the power to do whatever they want).

Later in the process, you do have the legal right to be evaluated by a mental health professional, and even later than that, to get legal representation, but this is *after* nearly all of the rights you usually have as a citizen have already been removed, *after* you are already physically forced somewhere with all of your resources removed. You have nothing to document any abuses towards you. They have the right to remove all of your items because they can say anything "could be used to harm yourself". How do you think it goes when a person who was deemed to have "psychiatric disabilities" submits a report and it's just their word against an entire police system or hospital system? Yeah, it's not worth anything, and they know you don't have anything to record the entire time they're dealing with you.

I didn't know it was *this* backwards until my experience, I thought surely a police officer would have to atleast consult with and get approval from a health professional of some kind, but no. The reality is that many states have laws that allow a single cop to have complete decision-making power based on vague concepts of "mental health" that they can twist to their liking.

 

[melwarson]

I'm not referring to searching specifically, and this isn't a criminal act. This is when law enforcement uses "mental health" laws to take physical custody of a person. This is an example of the law in Connecticut:

"A police officer may take a person with psychiatric disabilities into custody and deliver him to a general hospital on a court warrant or reasonable belief that the person meets the criteria for emergency commitment."

This "reasonable belief" gives police officers the right to make their own decisions about something they have absolutely no training, experience or education in. They are not healthcare workers, they have zero education or certifications in mental health. Yet these laws are written vaguely enough that they give police officers incredibly wide berth to do things that would otherwise be considered completely unconstitutional. They don't have to have any evidence to deem someone as "a danger to themself", because they're the only one there (and honestly, they know the people they're doing this to are already vulnerable, suffering and don't have the money/resources to report the things they did later, so they know they have the power to do whatever they want).

Later in the process, you do have the legal right to be evaluated by a mental health professional, and even later than that, to get legal representation, but this is *after* nearly all of the rights you usually have as a citizen have already been removed, *after* you are already physically forced somewhere with all of your resources removed. You have nothing to document any abuses towards you. They have the right to remove all of your items because they can say anything "could be used to harm yourself". How do you think it goes when a person who was deemed to have "psychiatric disabilities" submits a report and it's just their word against an entire police system or hospital system? Yeah, it's not worth anything, and they know you don't have anything to record the entire time they're dealing with you.

I didn't know it was *this* backwards until my experience, I thought surely a police officer would have to atleast consult with and get approval from a health professional of some kind, but no. The reality is that many states have laws that allow a single cop to have complete decision-making power based on vague concepts of "mental health" that they can twist to their liking.

Thank you for sharing this. Gotcha. Sounds like you are describing a 5150 hold. I don't think they should be able to do that and it could be abused.

Pretty obvious. The right to die and stay dead. (i.e. a DNR)

Thanks for explaining. Gotcha.

 

[pharmacoepia]

The cops took my IC SN a few weeks ago. One day later, I bought more SN from Poland, lol.

Old news bro.
Police came to my house almost 1 month ago LOL.

I remember reading many posts about this a couple of weeks ago, it's such a horrible situation and it disgusts me what has been happening to people. Those who don't wish to suffer don't deserve to be punished for it, it's inhumane to want to make people prisoners to this existence until they are tortured by old age and die anyway.

I posted this not because I thought it was relatively new, but because I think there will still be some late searches since LEO's are usually busy. I also wanted to educate people about their rights in general.

I don't care if it's "old news." Something like this will probably happen again with arrests on users or another search when people start switching to alternatives to SN when it inevitably starts to get more expensive/restricted.

 

[Whale_bones]

Thank you for sharing this. Gotcha. Sounds like you are describing a 5150 hold. I don't think they should be able to do that and it could be abused.

Thanks for explaining. Gotcha.

There's a more well-known phenomenon where you can be involuntarily held in a hospital for a length of time, and many people here are aware that can potentially happen regarding a hospital. But that *atleast* requires licensed healthcare practitioners to be involved (and we know that not all of those individuals are professional or ethical, but atleast you have a higher chance of getting someone who is when it comes to that profession).

I didn't know before this, and most people don't know, the type of legal authority a police officer has when just showing up at your door, by themselves, without any involvement or approval from a healthcare practitioner whatsoever. Law enforcement is not a profession that is known to treat people ethically and professionally, especially when dealing with minorities, vulnerable people and anyone who has less resources to report them. If you are in one of these categories, it's even more important to know these laws exist.

For example, the Connecticut law states that the person is to be transferred to a hospital, but of course there are no laws on how quickly that has to be done, or how it has to be done. These details are often left up to individual department "policies" (which sometimes don't exist in the first place) and the policies are left up to individual officer "discretion". The result is a police officer gets to do what they want, and if it's someone who already doesn't treat people professionally or ethically, and the person has now had most of their legal rights removed and can't record any of the following actions, you can imagine the result.

 

[PurpleParadigm]

This has already taken place. Certainly an all caps belated post on this matter is not very helpful.

In addition to that be mindful of the advice you give - the whole thing about refusing the search or entry in absence of warrant doesn't work in all countries. For example in the UK the section 17 amendment to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 gives the UK police the right to enter your premises without warrant if there is a threat to life or limb for example. I will write more about it once I am able to. In the meantime I would advise against panicmongering for clout. If for example in the UK they showed up again after confirming originally that you are okay in their eyes, you may be able to refuse them on those grounds but I'm quite sure it is unlikely to happen.

Police Professional | Entry and search without warrant – S17 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

May I also add that Kenneth Law acted like an absolute idiot. Even if he felt invincible doing what he did, and certainly was of great help to many, he should have protected the identities of his customers instead of recklessly sending to just about anyone unless you paid him for his discretion. Profiteering schmuck if you ask me.

 

[pharmacoepia]

This has already taken place. Certainly an all caps belated post on this matter is not very helpful.

In addition to that be mindful of the advice you give - the whole thing about refusing the search or entry in absence of warrant doesn't work in all countries. For example in the UK the section 17 amendment to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 gives the UK police the right to enter your premises without warrant if there is a threat to life or limb for example. I will write more about it once I am able to. In the meantime I would advise against panicmongering for clout. If for example in the UK they showed up again after confirming originally that you are okay in their eyes, you may be able to refuse them on those grounds but I'm quite sure it is unlikely to happen.

Police Professional | Entry and search without warrant – S17 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

See my previous replies to others for why it's all in caps and why I even mentioned it this late.

I was thinking about North American law (Both Canada and the US are pretty similar with search laws.) but a lot of sasu users are british, so I appreciate your contribution.

When I made this post, I assumed that this was a new development. I'm still keeping it up for the legal information in case anything like this happens again.