nitrogen

nitrogen

Schrödinger's cat
Nov 5, 2019
339
Just my personal observations&analysis intended to make people pause and think:

To condemn victim-blaming, one has to first identify who's the victim and who' the perpetrator. Now, are victims and perpetrators always easily identifiable? Some are. For instance, a person who gets punched by a stranger in the street simply because of his skin color is a victim of a hate crime. Some are not. Interactions that start off based on mutual needs usually fit into this category; the victim could just be the one who plays the same game as the perpetrator but gets outmaneuvered and ends up being the loser. All parties involved can be victims, or can all be perpetrators, or some can be both a victim and a perpetrator simultaneously, or a victim can turn into a perpetrator as the situation escalates and vice versa. Btw, masochism is a real thing.

People automatically give more credit to the alleged victims, because they appear to be less threatening and more innocent. People can be gullible, irresponsible, or lack common sense due to factors out of their control, but does that make it politically correct to swap out an adjective of a negative connotation (gullible or irresponsible) with another adjective of a neutral connotation (trusting or vulnerable) used to describe them? A dog barks loud at a leopard when its armed owner is nearby - same with people who express politically correct opinions when they know they're backed by the majority. On online forums, politically correct posts get showered by social brownie points and the posters often write in big fonts and indignant tones; while, politically incorrect posts get battered by angry faces.

People need a target to bear the uneasiness they feel and the potentials in themselves that they'd like to alienate from. The target is like a scapegoat (in the Bible, a scapegoat is released into the wilderness, symbolically taking with it all sins and impurities of the people) that may or may not be 100% guilty. It's tempting to look at things in black and white because it's easy. Whereas in reality, most things are in different shades of grey rather than black and white, and it takes two to tango.

Why not just let the (alleged) victims believe they're totally innocent and take no part in their tragedies? Well, when people believe it's completely somebody else's fault, they don't self-reflect and learn enough to sufficiently prevent ending up in the same hot water again in the future. Btw, all humans are in a Skinner Box [4], having our beliefs and moral values shaped by operant conditioning since birth, burned into our core that they become absolute truth.

Humans as social animals, by working as groups, each individual's fitness and survival chances are maximized. Political corruption and business interactions can be brought to light by examining money transfers between parties summarized by the popular catchphrase "follow the money." Interpersonal interactions can be brought to light and traced down to "follow the self." The so-called virtues such as altruism & compassion, upon close examination, might be just ego defense mechanisms to cover up uncomfortable feelings from the self. Endowing the overused word "love" with supreme overexaggerated power and touting compassion as a cardinal virtue seems to have become an established trend/culture that is bound to benefit many and poison some others.

Political correctness is closely tied to collective hypocrisy. The Nobel Laureate James Watson, THE father of DNA, was stripped of his honorary titles over "reprehensible" comments on the link between race and intelligence. Different cat breeds can have different intelligence levels, but different races of homo sapiens can't and that just sounds wrong, sure. Who discovered the link between asbestos and lung cancer, who developed the first high-powered electron microscope, where did the accurate data on human physiological limitations come from? Shhhh.....don't go there, let's just say EVERYTHING that Nazis did was an atrocity that carried zero benefits to human society and they were inhumane animals. Oh, and the medical terms named after Nazi doctors need to be changed. Btw, why is the word "inhumane" used to describe cruel acts while humans and bonobos are the only species on earth that have been found by far to carry out well-organized campaigns of genocides? How are the so-called humane humans nobler than the "low" animals?

There's a social psychology project called Pushed To The Edge that gives insight into how long it takes (the answer is 72 minutes) to turn a regular person into a murderer [3]. But the study subjects/participants weren't randomly chosen. Instead, the candidates took the Asch-style Conformity Test [2] to identify the biddable ones. Yes, people come on different compliant levels, and I bet adept predators know that, and I bet many members give off their compliant levels through the posts they make.

People accuse psychopaths of being liars and manipulators. The thing is, we humans, and of course including "normies", start to lie at as early as age three [1]. Manipulation is everywhere; it's necessary for any society, even animals to function. In this way, it is neither good or bad, but necessary [5]. Even being nice is a form of subtle manipulation. Conflict resolution and courtship behaviors are all about manipulation. But each individual puts their own slant on it based on their good or bad experiences. Then why do people demonize the traits in others they are also present in themselves? In part, because they aren't as skilled and want to even the playfield. It's like physically unattractive women are more likely to be hardcore feminists, especially the type that depicts men in adversarial positions against women and shame other women for adopting traditional gender roles.

1590360790758

Disclaimers:
*I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. Above are just my personal thoughts. PS, people only read what they want to read, and will only believe what they want to believe anyway.
*Please excuse any awkward expressions as English is not my native language.
*I'm only easily bored, not easily offended, so feel free to say whatever you want or give me angry faces as long as it does not violate forum rules. I may or may not respond to avoid leading to fights.
*I'm not calling anybody out.

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/media-spotlight/201311/when-does-lying-begin
[2] https://opentextbc.ca/socialpsychology/chapter/the-many-varieties-of-conformity/
[3] https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2016/jan/13/derren-brown-pushed-to-the-edge-review
[4] https://www.simplypsychology.org/operant-conditioning.html
[5] Quoting an archeologist who probably doesn't want to be mentioned.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

Enlightened
Dec 17, 2019
1,956
Everyone can be a murderer . Milgram and Zimbardo studies .

'Human' is now used today as a noun (person, place, or thing) or adjective (describing word) to refer to things literally having to do with being a human being. 'Humane', on the other hand, is only used as an adjective to refer to positive human traits like kindness and compassion
I speculate it came from the compassionate side . Young bonobos like to handle infants and show increased oxytocin . Despite horrors , genocide , abuse or even simple impatience and disregard , humans are capable of extremely high level of complex and complete empathy .

It's interesting to note the 1/99 relations you present. Nazis have contributed 1% and did 99% evil (numbers are figures of speech), so they weren't all bad. Humans have 1% psychopaths (ASPD) and 99% , well, "others", all liars. The statements are true but they carry certain threshold that on one case pays specific attention to shades of grey, but much less so on the other. It's all in human nature. A determination has to be made. Objectively, humans are good and Nazis are bad, and Nazis are part of humanity, no doubt about it. An innate tendency to form intimate bonds or to care for others is there. That's what psychology and ethics teaches us. Good and bad are values not just biology. Much like the complex etiology of mental illness. It's all genes, but it sure does matter what we do with them, together.
 
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Pryras

Pryras

Last hope
Feb 11, 2020
451
Why not just let the (alleged) victims believe they're totally innocent and take no part in their tragedies? Well, when people believe it's completely somebody else's fault, they don't self-reflect and learn enough to sufficiently prevent ending up in the same hot water again in the future. Btw, all humans are in a Skinner Box [4], having our beliefs and moral values shaped by operant conditioning since birth, burned into our core that they become absolute truth.

I think it makes everything much easier on someone to push complete blame and demonize someone else. It's easier to point fingers but in a lot of cases no one is completely innocent. I would've been over my trauma if I wasn't to blame, because "fuck that guy!" It's so much harder on me to internalize it all and reflect where I went wrong. And yeah I did a lot wrong that I hate to recognize and admit to. In a way, you could argue that everything we do is in some sense manipulation and that reminds me of something I read the other day online.

Kinda off tangent but it was concerning "People Pleasers" and how they essentially manipulate others to meet their own needs.

As a pleaser myself, I don't necessarily agree but I understand it. Abandoning your needs to prioritize others often at the incur of abuse isn't manipulation to me. Most pleasers don't know what their needs even are and there is often no benefit to them.

I agree though that at the end of the day it is all subjective right, because "right and wrong" isn't always clearly defined and someone may perceive themselves as a helpless victim or be ready to demonize someone else.
 
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Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
The Nobel Laureate James Watson, THE father of DNA, was stripped of his honorary titles over "reprehensible" comments on the link between race and intelligence


The Nobel prizes are awarded by committees from two of the most democratic countries in the world: Sweden and Norway. As such, the prizes cannot and should not be awarded to individuals who blatantly disrespect the most basic of all democratic principles, namely that all people have the same intrinsic value.

The idea that some races are more intelligent than others is not only rejected by the scientific community, but also deeply undemocratic. Indulging into this type of thinking leads to bias and discrimination.

The Nobel Committee did the right thing in stripping a racist of his award. Just because someone carried out revolutionary research half a century ago, does not mean he is infallible and should not be held accountable for subsequent mistakes.

It is not hypocrisy or manipulation to condemn the Nazi regime. Any regime that discriminates people based on race, religion, gender or sexuality is evil, irrespective of any scientific advancements that may have taken place during its rule.

This is going to sound harsh and I apologize in advance because I know this is a suicide forum and you (just like me) have enough on your plate.

But, really, the only reason you can write what you just did and not have your head shaved and your ass thrown into jail is because you live in a democracy where you have freedom of speech and freedom of opinion - something which people did not have in Nazi Germany.
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
If I understand right, in Germany freedom of speech isn't currently a priority either; human dignity is.

I'm pretty sure prioritizing human dignity isn't what @Epsilon0 is referring to, but it's worth bearing in mind that freedom of speech isn't the Great I Am everywhere.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
@OP

Great post. People in general tend to have a hard time seperating morality from value- and truth judgements. When their idea about how the world ought to be conflicts with descriptive facts about the world, they experience cognitive dissonance and get angry/ defensive, as is the case with race and intelligence – they either think you are making a moral judgement, or a value judgement (a vague notion of superiority), instead of a truth judgement. Or in the case of scientific advancements made in Nazi Germany, they always have to bring in morality – they are conflating good (as in valuable) with morally good and the object that is judged (the scientific discovery itself vs. the political affiliation of its proponent or what is has been put to use for).

@Epsilon0

namely that all people have the same intrinsic value.

Which is a silly concept anyway (intrinsic value)

The idea that some races are more intelligent than others is not only rejected by the scientific community, but also deeply undemocratic.

Is it rejected because of ideology and fear of persecution, or is it rejected because of the evidence? What does it mean for descriptive facts to be undemocratic? Individual variation in fitness related traits is inherently inegalitarian, not just between different races, but between individuals and species as well.

Please note that I am not making any prescriptive judgements. I am not saying that what is natural is necessarily good (naturalistic fallacy) and ought to be (moralistic fallacy).
 
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nitrogen

nitrogen

Schrödinger's cat
Nov 5, 2019
339
The Nobel prizes are awarded by committees from two of the most democratic countries in the world: Sweden and Norway. As such, the prizes cannot and should not be awarded to individuals who blatantly disrespect the most basic of all democratic principles, namely that all people have the same intrinsic value.

The idea that some races are more intelligent than others is not only rejected by the scientific community, but also deeply undemocratic. Indulging into this type of thinking leads to bias and discrimination.

The Nobel Committee did the right thing in stripping a racist of his award. Just because someone carried out revolutionary research half a century ago, does not mean he is infallible and should not be held accountable for subsequent mistakes.
Your post is politically correct and scientifically false.

Check out this widely-cited article on 30 yrs of research on race differences on cognitive ability.

Mind you, gene expressions are also influenced by epigenetics; meaning, besides hereditary factors, social, economic, dietary, environmental factors can ALL impact gene expressions. We humans' understanding of our DNA and epigenetics is still in its infancy.

I'm not saying there's definitely a proven link, I'm leaving that possibility open. And I'm saying that rejecting this possibility is scientifically wrong and politically correct.
 
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Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
I am very proud to be Swedish and in Sweden we teach children that all people have the same value. I call this value intrinsic because it is from birth, i.e. posessed by all humans alike @a.n.kirillov

I stand by this 100%. It is morally correct and I believe in it with all my heart.


@nitrogen I accept that we have oppositing views, but I I'll place my bet with the Swedish Academy of Science and the Nobel Committee, rather than the link you proposed. I think my source is more reliable than yours.
 
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strand

strand

Member
Apr 11, 2020
45
Have you read what Watson said about race and iq?
Your post is politically correct and scientifically false.

Check out this widely-cited article on 30 yrs of research on race differences on cognitive ability.

Mind you, gene expressions are also influenced by epigenetics; meaning, besides hereditary factors, social, economic, dietary, environmental factors can ALL impact gene expressions. We humans' understanding of our DNA and epigenetics is still in its infantry.

I'm not saying there's definitely a proven link, I'm leaving that possibility open. And I'm saying that rejecting this possibility is scientifically wrong and politically correct.

This study is not the scientific consensus.
My advice to you is to not cherry-pick studies and maybe consider that the reason scientific racism is not accepted by the consensus is not political correctness, but that fact that it is unsupported by evidence and does not hold up to scrutiny, just like that study you mentioned, which was released in 2005 and has already been criticized by others. Also, that study was funded by the "Pioneer Fund", which has been described as a hate group.
While I've always been fascinated by Watson and Crick's contribution, I'm glad they removed Watson's honors. His remarks were pseudoscientific and inhumane.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
I am very proud to be Swedish and in Sweden we teach children that all people have the same value. I call this value intrinsic because it is from birth, i.e. posessed by all humans alike @a.n.kirillov

I stand by this 100%. It is morally correct and I believe in it with all my heart.

What is this value someone possesses intrinsically? What does it consist of? What is value on your view?
Have you read what Watson said about race and iq?


This study is not the scientific consensus. My advice to you is to not cherry-pick studies and maybe consider that the reason scientific racism is not accepted by the consensus is not political correctness, but that fact that it is unsupported by evidence and does not hold up to scrutiny, just like that study you mentioned, which was released in 2005 and has already been criticized by others. Also, that study was funded by the "Pioneer Fund", which has been described as a hate group.
While I've always been fascinated by Watson and Crick's contribution, I'm glad they removed Watson's honors. His remarks were pseudoscientific and inhumane.
The fact that you desperately do not want this to be true and that you are heavily biased and emotionally invested is oozing from every sentence of your post. Just look at your wording: "hate group", "inhumane", "racism".

Let me ask you this: do you agree that it is an established fact that different ethnic groups or races perform, on average, differently on a modern IQ test? Please answer without criticising IQ as a measure of intelligence or the value and concepts of intelligence or race themselves.
 
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Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
Yes, that is correct @stonemason

@nitrogen
One of the researchers you linked to, Rushton, had been question by Shipman in The Limitations of Social research. Shipman points to the fact that Rushton's research in the '90s had been funded by Pioneer Group who had been linked to former Nazi geneticists.

It's like asking McDonalds to research the best burger in the world.

@a.n.kirillov

Value here does does not have a positive or negative connotation. It simple means sameness, same dignity, same rights and same obligations.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
Yes, that is correct @stonemason

@nitrogen
One of the researchers you linked to, Rushton, had been question by Shipman in The Limitations of Social research. Shipman points to the fact that Rushton's research in the '90s has been fundef by Pioneer Group who had been linked to former Nazi geneticists.

It's like asking McDonalds to research the best burger in the world.

@a.n.kirillov

Value here does does not have a positive or negative connotation. It simple means sameness, same dignity, same rights and same obligations.
That is a weird use of the term value; nonetheless, those are certainly not intrinsic, but normative, relative and extrinsic.

Value usually denotes a usefulness of an object to someone, for a specific purpose, i.e. a hamburger as an object is valuable to me as a subject to satiate my hunger and survive to reproduce. The value is not intrinsic to the hamburger.
 
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Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
You, me and everyone else @a.n.kirillov has the exact same value at birth: we are human beings and we all deserve the same respect, irrespective of color, disability, sexuality etc.


If you call this normative, relative and extrinsic, then I think this discussion is futile, because we cannot talk about something without at least agreeing on the concepts we use.

From the point of view of democracy human value and dignity are most certainly not relative.

But since you view this issue through the lens of another ideology, I understand you can't accept that, and that's fine.
 
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nitrogen

nitrogen

Schrödinger's cat
Nov 5, 2019
339
@nitrogen I accept that we have oppositing views, but I I'll place my bet with the Swedish Academy of Science and the Nobel Committee, rather than the link you proposed. I think my source is more reliable than yours.
Your source (Nobel Committee) also awarded a Nobel Prize to a guy who invented the notorious lobotomy procedure. Scientists AND the Nobel Committee make mistakes all the time.

Your exact words were "The idea that some races are more intelligent than others is not only rejected by the scientific community" Your words imply a verdict on this matter has been made and reached.

My source (including UC Berkeley) is not part of the scientific community? Has a verdict been made? It's not about opposition views. It's about logical fallacy.

This study is not the scientific consensus.
Did I write it was the consensus? Does being criticized automatically equate to being proven wrong? On such a complex topic, the debate will likely go on for a long time before a consensus can be made and the answer will likely not be a simple "yes" or "no". Btw, science is never JUST science.

I'm emphasizing on LEAVING POSSIBILITIES OPEN WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE 100% KNOWLEDGE OF SOMETHING.
 
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strand

strand

Member
Apr 11, 2020
45
The fact that you desperately do not want this to be true and that you are heavily biased and emotionally invested is oozing from every sentence of your post. Just look at your wording: "hate group", "inhumane", "racism".

Let me ask you this: do you agree that it is an established fact that different ethnic groups or races perform, on average, differently on a modern IQ test? Please answer without criticising IQ as a measure of intelligence or the value and concepts of intelligence or race themselves.

If IQ were an absolute measure of intelligence, and if the results were consistently in favor of one race, then I'd have no problem admitting so. But it's not. And I'm not going to answer any of your questions if you already acknowledge that you want me to overlook information that is integral to answering your question.
Call my refusal to accept scientific racism however you like, sentimentality, desperation, bias etc. I don't really care.
The truth is that scientific racism is unsupported by evidence. I don't know what to tell you.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
@Epsilon0
I think you, me and everyone else are inherently worthless, unless someone values us. You could be valuable to me as a friend or as a rape victim, or you could be of no interest and thus worthless to me.

I don't view this through the lense of any idology ... these are my own ideas about value and rights. Your notions of intrinsic rights are completely useless without the power to defend them, or someone to grant them to you. There is really only one kind of intrinsic right, and that is the natural right to do whatever you can get away with doing.
If IQ were an absolute measure of intelligence, and if the results were consistently in favor of one race, then I'd have no problem admitting so. But it's not. And I'm not going to answer any of your questions if you already acknowledge that you want me to overlook information that is integral to answering your question.
Call my refusal to accept scientific racism however you like, sentimentality, desperation, bias etc. I don't really care.
The truth is that scientific racism is unsupported by evidence. I don't know what to tell you.
See, you can only dodge the question. I did not ask you about intelligence, I merely asked about IQ measures.
 
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strand

strand

Member
Apr 11, 2020
45
@Epsilon0
I think you, me and everyone else are inherently worthless, unless someone values us. You could be valuable to me as a friend or as a rape victim, or you could be of no interest and thus worthless to me.

I don't view this through the lense of any idology ... these are my own ideas about value and rights. Your notions of intrinsic rights are completely useless without the power to defend them, or someone to grant them to you. There is really only one kind of intrinsic right, and that is the natural right to do whatever you can get away with doing.

See, you can only dodge the question. I did not ask you about intelligence, I merely asked about IQ measures.

IQ literally stands for Intelligence quotient, but ok.

Also, where's the evidence that "different ethnic groups or races perform, on average, differently on a modern IQ test"?
And why should we care what an IQ test has to say in the first place?
Do you understand my concerns here?
Did I write it was the consensus? Does being criticized automatically equate to being proven wrong? On such a complex topic, the debate will likely go on for a long time before a consensus can be made and the answer will likely not be a simple "yes" or "no". Btw, science is never JUST science.

I'm emphasizing on LEAVING POSSIBILITIES OPEN WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE 100% KNOWLEDGE OF SOMETHING.

The time to believe something is when there's sufficient evidence.
I also believe that we don't have absolute certainty about anything. But the scientific method can help us to a certain degree discern what accurately describes our reality (up to now at least). And scientific racism doesn't hold up to that scrutiny and so I'm not going to leave open the possibility that it does unless it's proven that it does describe reality.
 
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Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
@nitrogen

Research into race and intelligence is highly problematic because how does one measure intelligence, how does one devise experiments without letting the cultural bias (we are all soaked into) influence the the research?

The moment you formulate a research question about race and intelligence you have already tainted it with your bias and it becomes unethical and undemocratic.

Observations and experiments do not happen in a vacuum.

It is literally impossible to study race and intelligence and not taint the results by merely studying the phenomenon.

Even something as "simple" as the way you formulate the research question and the methodology you use will sway your results.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
IQ literally stands for Intelligence quotient, but ok.

Also, where's the evidence that "different ethnic groups or races perform, on average, differently on a modern IQ test"?
And why should we care what an IQ test has to say in the first place?
Do you understand my concerns here?
I don't know whether there is such evidence. Do you categorically exclude the possibility? It doesn't seem like an outlandish claim to me.

Why should we care about IQ tests? –Because we care about intelligence? Just as we care about health and develop objective models for quantifying health and many other things about the human body and mind.

Let me ask you this: would you rather have a kid that has an IQ of 65 or 120?
 
E

Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
@Epsilon0
I think you, me and everyone else are inherently worthless, unless someone values us. You could be valuable to me as a friend or as a rape victim, or you could be of no interest and thus worthless to me.

I don't view this through the lense of any idology ... these are my own ideas about value and rights. Your notions of intrinsic rights are completely useless without the power to defend them, or someone to grant them to you. There is really only one kind of intrinsic right, and that is the natural right to do whatever you can get away with doing.

See, you can only dodge the question. I did not ask you about intelligence, I merely asked about IQ measures.


The difference between me and you is I feel no need to call your ideas useless, weird or silly.

But I remember what it's like to be young and have a hard time accepting oppositing points of views, so I will not hold that against you.
" Your words imply a verdict on this matter has been made and reached
Your words imply a verdict on this matter has been made and reached.

My source (including UC Berkeley) is not part of the scientific community? Has a verdict been made? It's not about opposition views. It's about logical fallacy


The verdict (so far) is that research on race/intelligent is unethical and should not be conducted.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
@Epsilon0 you don't need to feel personally attacked. I called your notion of intrinsic rights useless in a context where others won't assent to them, which should tell you that they are not intrinsic. You can of course say that woman's instrinsic rights are simply violated in a country like Saudi Arabia, and that they exist intrinsically and objectively nonetheless – but then I challenge you to describe to me what they are made of; are they made of atoms? protons and neutrons? Are they an immaterial substance? I called your notion of value weird, because usually, when people speak of value, they speak of something being useful, which has nothing to do with rights. And I called your notion of intrinsic value silly, because value clearly is a subject—object relationship. A hamburger has value to me; I value it, because it nourishes me. But this value can never be intrinsic to it. A hamburger has no value to a vegan or a herbivore ... nor would it have any value on Mars, where there are no subjects to value it.
 
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E

Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
That is a weird use of the term value; nonetheless, those are certainly not intrinsic, but normative, relative and extrinsic.

Value usually denotes a usefulness of an object to someone, for a specific purpose, i.e. a hamburger as an object is valuable to me as a subject to satiate my hunger and survive to reproduce. The value is not intrinsic to the hamburger.

Value according to The Cambridge Dictionary means importance (check the 2nd definition).

To say that every human being has the same importance (i.e. value) at birth is perfectly logical.


I can assure you I do not feel personally attacked, I was merely noting some of the adjectives you were employing which are not exactly conducive to good debating.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
@Epsilon0 you don't need to feel personally attacked. I called your notion of intrinsic rights useless in a context where others won't assent to them, which should tell you that they are not intrinsic. You can of course say that woman's instrinsic rights are simply violated in a country like Saudi Arabia, and that they exist intrinsically and objectively nonetheless – but then I challenge you to describe to me what they are made of; are they made of atoms? protons and neutrons? Are they an immaterial substance? I called your notion of value weird, because usually, when people speak of value, they speak of something being useful, which has nothing to do with rights. And I called your notion of intrinsic value silly, because value clearly is a subject—object relationship. A hamburger has value to me; I value it, because it nourishes me. But this value can never be intrinsic to it. A hamburger has no value to a vegan or a herbivore ... nor would it have any value on Mars, where there are no subjects to value it.

Not quite bulllying, but in the same spirit as the defense:

11oczi

I've engaged with you in the past, and in general I observe, as well as specifically in this thread, that you do not debate but make moves, as in chess, except that only you know the game and make up the rules when you choose. But you're not quite slick enough that you slide uphill.

You refuse to agree, you refuse to agree to disagree, you refuse to disagree, you move things around so that you are in disagreement with the person or with a stance they haven't remotely claimed (strawman), not their actual stance, and attempt to provoke rather than engage and experience an exchange of ideas. You do not act with respect for others, not even as opponents. Clearly you're intelligent, but more in an evil genius kind of way, or more accurately, a troll. And the original post provides support for such expressions of intellect and engagement with others, so you're in a privileged space here.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
Not quite bulllying, but in the same spirit as the defense:

View attachment 35719

I've engaged with you in the past, and in general I observe, as well as specifically in this thread, that you do not debate but make moves, as in chess, except that only you know the game and make up the rules when you choose. But you're not quite slick enough that you slide uphill.

You refuse to agree, you refuse to agree to disagree, you refuse to disagree, you move things around so that you are in disagreement with the person or with a stance they haven't remotely claimed (strawman), not their actual stance, and attempt to provoke rather than engage and experience an exchange of ideas. You do not act with respect for others, not even as opponents. Clearly you're intelligent, but more in an evil genius kind of way, or more accurately, a troll. And the original post provides support for such expressions of intellect and engagement with others, so you're in a privileged space here.
The value of your creative writing aside ... I clearly disagreed with epsilon0. And I have not straw manned her; if I did, please point out where and how I did.
 
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strand

strand

Member
Apr 11, 2020
45
I don't know whether there is such evidence. Do you categorically exclude the possibility? It doesn't seem like an outlandish claim to me.

So, you don't know if there's any evidence? Then why on earth did you ask me if I agree that it is "an established fact that different ethnic groups or races perform, on average, differently on a modern IQ test", when you don't even know if those even exist let alone are "an established fact"?!
Can you see how dishonest it is? I'm dumbfounded that you have admited this.

Why should we care about IQ tests? –Because we care about intelligence? Just as we care about health and develop objective models for quantifying health and many other things about the human body and mind.

Let me ask you this: would you rather have a kid that has an IQ of 65 or 120?

You are failing to understand what I'm writing to you. But I'm blaming myself here, I'm most likely not being descriptive enough.

I'm not wondering why we should care about intelligence. I'm asking you what has convinced you that IQ tests are a good or actual measurement of intelligence? What is your evidence that IQ tests are scientific and accurate when it comes to measuring and comparing human intelligence?
Is it up to par with what the scientific consensus says about the measurement of intelligence (if such a thing is even possible)?
If yes, THEN we can talk about IQ measurements.

Until you can answer that, then I have no reason to care about ANY IQ results or any of your questions about my IQ preferences.
What you asked is analogous to asking me about my preferred zodiac sign as a measurement of personality. The only difference, in that case, is that we know that Astrology is wrong. IQ tests are still debated.

That's why I didn't answer your first question. You're presupposing that IQ tests are an accurate method of measuring intelligence when I, on the other hand, I'm not convinced of that at all.

I'm assuming this is why you specifically asked me in your post NOT TO criticize IQ tests, because you probably already know that the science around them is debated.

And to sum up, the way you approach discourse, as you have demonstrated here at least, is ineffective for both sides, which is unfortunate. I'm not going to respond further (Also I'm spamming the thread), but I encourage you to research IQ more. When I was a teenager I was also interested in IQ tests, but further research and being a skeptic have clearly changed my mind about them.
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
Value according to The Cambridge Dictionary means importance (check the 2nd definition).

To say that every human being has the same importance (i.e. value) at birth is perfectly logical.


I can assure I do not feel personally attacked, I was merely noting some of the adjectives you were employing which are not exactly conducive to good debating.

To say that every human being has the same importance (i.e. value) at birth is perfectly logical.

no it is not, because importance implies a subject to whom something is important in the first place. To the Nazis, disabled children had no value (or negative value) and it was very important to them to kill as many of them as fast as possible. To you, a disabled child might be important and of positive value, because you want to collect the disability money to buy heroin; – or because you love it if course

I concede that my language was unnecessarily derogatory.
 
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Quarky00

Quarky00

Enlightened
Dec 17, 2019
1,956
Regarding 'Politically Correct' , I had written about its etymology and semantics. It is a very common practice where people misuse words and transform their meaning. This is 1984 meets hyperrealism: the discussion is a fictional futile game. I wrote the same about capitalism ('educate yourself'). But for academia our public discourse, even at the highest spheres of intellect, had lost true meaning; it's all slogans.

That's why I'm not even going into arguments but performing deconstruction of language and meaning. Many discussions of ontology, epistemology, ethics, and philosophy of language refer to Derrida's observations. It is hard to engage without understand the meaning, and that the meaning is often misused and abused nowadays (not referring to OP but 99% of content).

First a bit about hyperrealism . People and members claim we live in a sham fake world -- that's it.
Hyperrealism: inability of consciousness to distinguish reality from a simulation of reality, especially in technologically advanced postmodern societies, a condition in which what is real and what is fiction are seamlessly blended together so that there is no clear distinction between where one ends and the other begins.


It's not just 'virtual reality' per se, but actually living a 'fictional world' in real life. It's not that everything around is fictional, but our narrative often is. Regarding capitalism, I had noted that the problem is with consumerism:
Hyperreality is significant as a paradigm to explain current cultural conditions. Consumerism, because of its reliance on sign exchange value (brand X shows that one is fashionable, car Y indicates one's wealth), could be seen as a contributing factor in the creation of hyperreality or the hyperreal condition.


After 50 years, that's also how communicate, with brands and slogans.


I think many people will relate to this:
Hyperreality tricks consciousness into detaching from any real emotional engagement, instead opting for artificial simulation, and endless reproductions of fundamentally empty appearance. Essentially, fulfillment or happiness is found through simulation and imitation of a transient simulacrum of reality, rather than any interaction with any "real" reality.


And, as promised a short review of PC:
PC is derogatory term .

Politically correct =
  • Politics = public affairs
  • Correct = just & fair

So there's nothing wrong with public affairs being just & fair :wink:

This wasn't just about language, censorship, and expression or words -- but actual practical policies. Sadly those weren't implemented well or weren't tolerated by racists/etc. The dissonance between language and reality became a mockery and finally disparaging.

As time passed by it has become a derogatory term for changing one's behaviour ingenuinely or not for a worthy cause/reason. This was intentionally perpatrated by well organized campaigns, focusing and exaggerating the faults of modern society. There were people working maticulously on how to psychologically make that term/idea abhorrent to people.

Politically correct =
  • Politics = self-abosrbed
  • Correct = change quickly
As time passed by and some people fighting for equality, which is a worthy cause, obsessed about the looks and appearances, sometimes rightly so but other times with rage. that term had become even worse in its meaning, at times even empty; bit hyperrealistic .
 
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a.n.kirillov

a.n.kirillov

velle non discitur
Nov 17, 2019
1,831
So, you don't know if there's any evidence? Then why on earth did you ask me if I agree that it is "an established fact that different ethnic groups or races perform, on average, differently on a modern IQ test", when you don't even know if those even exist let alone are "an established fact"?!
Can you see how dishonest it is? I'm dumbfounded that you have admited this.



You are failing to understand what I'm writing to you. But I'm blaming myself here, I'm most likely not being descriptive enough.

I'm not wondering why we should care about intelligence. I'm asking you what has convinced you that IQ tests are a good or actual measurement of intelligence? What is your evidence that IQ tests are scientific and accurate when it comes to measuring and comparing human intelligence?
Is it up to par with what the scientific consensus says about the measurement of intelligence (if such a thing is even possible)?
If yes, THEN we can talk about IQ measurements.

Until you can answer that, then I have no reason to care about ANY IQ results or any of your questions about my IQ preferences.
What you asked is analogous to asking me about my preferred zodiac sign as a measurement of personality. The only difference, in that case, is that we know that Astrology is wrong. IQ tests are still debated.

That's why I didn't answer your first question. You're presupposing that IQ tests are an accurate method of measuring intelligence when I, on the other hand, I'm not convinced of that at all.

I'm assuming this is why you specifically asked me in your post NOT TO criticize IQ tests, because you probably already know that the science around them is debated.

And to sum up, the way you approach discourse, as you have demonstrated here at least, is ineffective for both sides, which is unfortunate. I'm not going to respond further (Also I'm spamming the thread), but I encourage you to research IQ more. When I was a teenager I was also interested in IQ tests, but further research and being a skeptic have clearly changed my mind about them.
You compare the predictive power of a model of intelligence like IQ to astrology but call me dishonest. The difference between someone with an an IQ of 65 and someone with an IQ of 120 is the difference between someone who can not figure out how to tie his shoes and an honors student. The difference between the latter and someone with an IQ of 160 is the difference between an honors student and someone who can understand higher order mathematics at 10 years old.

I haven't done enough research into IQ, but to compare it to astrology is ridiculous. Any method to measure a constructed trait (intelligence is a trait in a psychological theory) will have some circularity to it, i.e. what the test measures is intelligence and intelligence is what the test measures – the test is itself constitutive of the concept of intelligence – and will only ever be an approximation. Do you have any better model to measure what we commonly refer to as "intelligence" than the IQ test?
 
E

Epsilon0

Enlightened
Dec 28, 2019
1,874
To say that every human being has the same importance (i.e. value) at birth is perfectly logical.

no it is not, because importance implies a subject to whom something is important in the first place. To the Nazis, disabled children had no value (or negative value) and it was very important to them to kill as many of them as fast as possible. To you, a disabled child might be important and of positive value, because you want to collect the disability money to buy heroin; – or because you love it if course

I concede that my language was unnecessarily derogatory.

Kids with disabilities had no value because Nazi ideology dictated they were inferior to healthy kids.

According to democratic principles, a kid with disability has the same value and should have the same rights as a healthy kid.

Ideology dictates how we perceive human value. I subscribe to democratic principles. It's a choice that I make and one that feels right in my gut.

Thank you for your last remark and for the debate! Have a good evening @a.n.kirillov
 
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D

Deleted member 1465

_
Jul 31, 2018
6,914
So what?
We are animals.
We are hypocrites and we lie to each other and especially to ourselves. And we manipulate.
Some of it it conscious and malicious. Some of it is subconscious and benign, even necessary.
It all fits somewhere under a normal curve with the extremes squidged up either end and the consensus partying in the middle.
Value is meaningless.
It's relative and it's about the choices we make. Indeed it's the choices themselves that have the value, not the things
The lives we lead are all smoke and mirrors; they have to be. That manipulation and self delusion is essential to our survival. It's all part of the existentially negotiated narrative that an intelligent species has to suffer.
Strip it away and what would we be?
Insane. Damned. Dead.
So we are animals, flawed and clever and deceptive.
So what?
Sometimes I feel that someone is pointing and laughing at all of us.
But that's just paranoid anthropomorphism.
Everyone in the universe suffers from that.
 
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