• UK users: Due to a formal investigation into this site by Ofcom under the UK Online Safety Act 2023, we strongly recommend using a trusted, no-logs VPN. This will help protect your privacy, bypass censorship, and maintain secure access to the site. Read the full VPN guide here.

  • Hey Guest,

    Today, OFCOM launched an official investigation into Sanctioned Suicide under the UK’s Online Safety Act. This has already made headlines across the UK.

    This is a clear and unprecedented overreach by a foreign regulator against a U.S.-based platform. We reject this interference and will be defending the site’s existence and mission.

    In addition to our public response, we are currently seeking legal representation to ensure the best possible defense in this matter. If you are a lawyer or know of one who may be able to assist, please contact us at [email protected].

    Read our statement here:

    Donate via cryptocurrency:

    Bitcoin (BTC): 34HyDHTvEhXfPfb716EeEkEHXzqhwtow1L
    Ethereum (ETH): 0xd799aF8E2e5cEd14cdb344e6D6A9f18011B79BE9
    Monero (XMR): 49tuJbzxwVPUhhDjzz6H222Kh8baKe6rDEsXgE617DVSDD8UKNaXvKNU8dEVRTAFH9Av8gKkn4jDzVGF25snJgNfUfKKNC8
henryM4

henryM4

Cigs and a plane ticket can turn any day around.
May 13, 2025
31

Victim-Precipitated Homicide (VPH) Megathread


Victim-Precipitated Homicide (VPH) or Suicide by cop (SbC) is a recognized form of suicide in which a person intentionally provokes law enforcement to use lethal force against them. In practice, the individual, often with known suicidal intent, engages in life-threatening behavior – for example brandishing a real or imitation weapon or threatening officers – specifically to compel officers to shoot. Law enforcement jargon defines SbC as a scenario "in which a suicidal person attempts to die by suicide by forcing a law enforcement officer to use lethal force". Importantly, because the fatal injury is inflicted by police, coroner reports record SbC deaths as homicides, not suicides. Investigators must therefore examine such cases from both homicide and suicide perspectives.


Common indicators of SbC include explicit cues of suicidal intent and manipulation of symbols of mortality. Victims often express a desire to die (e.g. repeatedly shouting "Shoot me" or making suicide threats), discuss death or the afterlife, set deadlines for their own death, or speak of disbursing worldly possessions. They may also name deceased people as if alive or cite religious ideas of sacrifice or resurrection. In some cases, the person will call 9‑1‑1 or otherwise initiate contact with police under benign pretenses (e.g. reporting a "prowler"), then turn on officers with a weapon (often a knife or imitation gun) to precipitate a lethal response. In short, SbC incidents typically involve a suicidal subject who threatens officers (or convinces them they are threatened) in such a way as to leave officers "no choice but to use lethal force to stop the threat".

  • Provocation of force: The subject often points what appears to be a lethal weapon (firearm, airsoft/replica gun, or edged weapon) at officers or bystanders.​
  • Explicit suicide intent: Phrases like "shoot me" or "kill me" are common, as are suicide notes or prior expressions of wanting to die.​
  • Mental health crisis: The subject typically exhibits signs of severe depression, agitation, or psychosis. Dispatch records often flag SbC calls as involving mental illness or a "suicidal person".​
  • Unusual behavior: Compared to ordinary confrontations, SbC subjects may behave erratically – committing random vandalism, refusing to flee, or ambushing officers unexpectedly.​

Officers arriving on these calls quickly recognize the danger. By definition, SbC subjects force police into a life-or-death confrontation; indeed, by one count SbC accounts for roughly 10–29% of all officer-involved shootings in the U.S.. In practice, the median time from officer arrival to shooting in such cases is about 15 minutes (with 70% happening within 30 minutes). Nearly all victims are male (98% in one study) and most are in mid-adulthood. Many incidents occur during domestic disputes or private disturbances (39% involved domestic violence in one analysis). Across studies, SbC confrontations often end fatally (over half in some samples), and every death is recorded as a police-inflicted homicide (not suicide) because the lethal injury was caused by law enforcement.


Psychological Profile of SbC Subjects


Subjects who choose suicide by cop typically have a complex psychological profile marked by mental illness, acute stressors, and active suicidal intent. Multiple studies agree that the majority of SbC individuals suffer from psychiatric disorders. For instance, a survey of Los Angeles-area SbC cases found that 67% of subjects had a confirmed mental illness or strong history of psychiatric symptoms, including mood disorders and psychosis. The breakdown included about 19% with schizophrenia, 16% with bipolar disorder, 14% with major depression, and smaller percentages with personality or trauma-related disorders. Substance abuse is also common, and many SbC subjects have a history of suicide attempts or hospitalizations. Psychologists note that individuals who die by suicide-by-cop often choose this method to externalize blame for their death, avoiding the stigma of a conventional suicide.


Clinically, these subjects often display overt suicidal intent: they deliberately provoke lethal force because they want to die. This intent may be planned or spontaneous. In planned SbC, the person may call the police or call 9‑1‑1, and upon officers' arrival immediately begin threatening them (often saying "Shoot me"). In spontaneous SbC, a desperate individual becomes suicidal on the spot – for example, a subject armed with a knife might suddenly charge at officers after an argument, despite having no prior history of violence. In both cases, the key element is that the subject wants to die and sees eliciting police gunfire as the only way to accomplish it.


Typical behavioral patterns include resignation and confrontation. Subjects may appear calm but deliberately walk toward officers with a weapon, or they may taunt officers and proclaim their desire to die. They may show little regard for escape or self-preservation – for example, refusing to flee or hide when officers have the opportunity. As one police psychologist noted, officers must "understand what the suicidal person is thinking" to de-escalate effectively. Epidemiological data also suggest contextual stressors: SbC incidents often follow relationship breakups, legal troubles, or personal crises. (For example, in one U.S. case the subject had just learned his wife wanted a divorce and told 9‑1‑1 he wanted police to shoot him.) In short, SbC subjects typically meet diagnostic criteria for serious suicidal intent and often carry psychiatric diagnoses such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or borderline personality disorder.


Weapons and Tactical Patterns


The weapons used in SbC incidents vary widely, but one striking finding is that many subjects do not use lethal firearms. Early assumptions held that armed civilians mostly use guns, but research shows otherwise. In a large North American study, 80% of SbC subjects had some kind of weapon – 60% a real firearm – but 19% only a fake weapon (toy or replica). However, a detailed Los Angeles series of 419 cases found only 4% involved real firearms and 4% involved realistic replicas, while 16% involved knives. Thus police often face suspects armed with knives, blunt objects, or imitation guns that look real. Other common "weapons" include vehicles (e.g. a car used to ram a police line) and tools repurposed as threats (like holding a screwdriver). Because the danger in SbC lies largely in the perceived threat, even innocuous objects (pens, toy guns, cell phones) may be treated as lethal if the subject intends to provoke violence.


Tactically, SbC confrontations tend to escalate quickly. Officers typically attempt to de-escalate through distance, cover, and negotiation, but an SbC subject may negate these efforts by suddenly advancing or firing. Many encounters play out in tight timeframes (median ~15 minutes) with multiple officers responding. In about 39% of cases the context is domestic or involves family/home settings, requiring rapid containment. During such incidents, subjects often do not flee or submit; instead, they may stand their ground or move toward police. Standard police tactics in SbC scenarios include establishing a perimeter, using loud negotiations, and employing less-lethal options (Tasers, beanbag rounds) if time permits. However, if a suspect with a knife or apparent gun suddenly charges or aims at officers, protocol usually calls for lethal force to protect lives. In any confrontation, officers must follow the OODA loop (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) and assess whether the subject poses an imminent threat of serious harm to anyone. If the only perceived threat is the suspect's own suicidal action, courts may later scrutinize whether deadly force was necessary (see Legal section below).


Scenario Walkthroughs


To illustrate SbC incidents in practice, consider these two fictional scenarios based on real patterns:


Scenario A (Fatal): A 35-year-old man named David calls 9‑1‑1 reporting that his wife is being held hostage at their home. Officers arrive to find David pacing in the living room with a handgun pointed at the wall. The dispatcher had noted the call was erratic and David's family later confirms he is bipolar and had expressed "hopelessness". Officers approach behind cover and begin negotiations. David refuses to comply but does not harm others. After about 10 minutes, he suddenly turns, pointing the pistol at himself, and shouts "Shoot me – I want to die!". He steps toward the officers with the gun lowered. Two officers on each side, believing David is aiming at them or about to kill himself with the gun, each fire several rounds. David is hit multiple times. Paramedics arrive, initiate trauma protocols (airway management, IV fluids, bleeding control), but he succumbs to blood loss from torso injuries. The coroner later records homicide as cause of death, noting David's final act of brandishing the gun. A police investigation and internal review confirm David's intent: a suicide note is found, and witnesses say he had been depressed. (Clinically, David's behavior – explicit "shoot me" demand and refusal to drop the weapon – were classic SbC indicators. The officers followed standard lethal-force training under an extreme scenario.)


Scenario B (Nonfatal): A 28-year-old woman named Sarah is involved in an argument with roommates and is described as having severe depression. She takes a kitchen knife and threatens to cut herself, then walks out into the street holding the blade at her own abdomen. A bystander calls 9‑1‑1 saying "She's going to hurt herself – police needed." Two uniformed officers arrive with body cameras. Sarah stands calmly on the curb, whispering "Just kill me." The officers recognize a possible crisis. One officer lays down his patrol car to use as cover and begins talking gently: "You sound in a lot of pain. I'm not here to hurt you; I just want you to be okay." The other officer is ready with a Taser but keeps it holstered. Over several tense minutes, Sarah waves the knife but does not advance. Officers maintain distance and attempt simple negotiations, repeatedly asking her to put the knife down. They also call a police negotiator on the phone. Finally, Sarah allows herself to be handcuffed and disarmed, whispering, "I knew you wouldn't shoot." Medics evaluate her injuries (minor cuts) and she is taken to the hospital for psychiatric evaluation instead of jail. In this case, the use of force was avoided. (This reflects a spontaneous SbC scenario: Sarah had not planned to die by cop but became overwhelmed. The officers' de-escalation and patience, along with the subject's hesitation to harm others, prevented a deadly outcome.)


Each scenario highlights the SbC pattern: Background of severe depression or crisis; Dispatch indicating a dangerous but unusual situation; On-scene response using cover, communication, and readiness for use of force; Outcome (fatal or not) determined by split-second decisions. In Scenario A the subject clearly provoked deadly force and died, classified as homicide, whereas in Scenario B the crisis was resolved without shooting. In real cases, outcomes vary widely: some SbC incidents end in officer injury, and many (often the majority) are resolved non-fatally through negotiation.


Advanced Medical Response Protocols


When police gunfire is used, emergency medical services (EMS) and hospital trauma teams must act swiftly under established trauma algorithms. The initial on-scene response follows the "ABCs" of trauma (Airway, Breathing, Circulation) and advanced life support protocols:

  • Airway: Secure the airway as soon as possible. If the victim is unconscious or can't protect the airway, emergency providers perform endotracheal intubation, typically via Rapid Sequence Intubation (RSI) with a sedative (e.g. ketamine or etomidate) and paralytic (e.g. rocuronium). If intubation fails or can't be performed (e.g. massive facial trauma), a surgical airway (cricothyroidotomy) is indicated. A nasopharyngeal airway or supraglottic device may be used temporarily.​
  • Breathing: After airway control, ensure adequate oxygenation and ventilation. Assess for chest injuries. Tension pneumothorax is a classic fatal injury in shootings; providers look for absent breath sounds and immediate needle decompression if suspected. Chest tubes may be placed emergently en route or on ED arrival for open or tension pneumothorax. Advanced ventilator support is begun in the ambulance or ED as needed.​
  • Circulation and hemorrhage control: Uncontrolled bleeding is the leading cause of preventable death. Paramedics rapidly apply direct pressure, wound packing, and tourniquets to extremity hemorrhages. Hemostatic dressings (e.g. QuikClot) may be used for deep penetrating wounds. Intravenous (IV) or intraosseous (IO) access is obtained for fluid resuscitation. Modern practice favors damage-control resuscitation: permissive hypotension (maintaining only enough blood pressure to perfuse brain/heart) and early blood products (packed red cells, plasma) rather than large crystalloid boluses. In mass-casualty or very severe cases, tranexamic acid (TXA) may be given to reduce bleeding. Swiss-cheese or massive transfusion protocols may be initiated at the hospital.​

If the victim deteriorates into cardiac arrest with possible thoracic injury, an Emergency Department Thoracotomy (EDT) may be considered. In penetrating trauma (e.g. multiple chest gunshots) with signs of life, an EDT can relieve cardiac tamponade (blood in the pericardium) and allow internal cardiac massage or aortic cross-clamping. (Survival is exceedingly rare in blunt trauma arrests, and EDT is generally not done unless the arrest was witnessed and brief.)


After prehospital stabilization, the patient is taken to a trauma center:

  • Emergency Department: ATLS protocols dictate a primary survey (ABCDE) and immediate life-saving interventions (chest tubes, blood transfusion). Imaging (FAST ultrasound, chest/abdominal X-ray, CT scans) is done if the patient is stable enough. Surgical teams stand ready for emergent operations (e.g. laparotomy for abdominal bleeding, thoracotomy in OR if needed). All injuries (gunshot wounds, organ damage, vascular injuries) are addressed in a damage-control fashion if the patient is unstable.​
  • Intensive Care: Surviving SbC patients often require ICU-level care: mechanical ventilation with lung-protective settings, sedation and analgesia, invasive monitoring of blood pressure and urine output, and management of traumatic coagulopathy, hypothermia, and acidosis. If there is traumatic brain injury (e.g. via gunshot to head), neurosurgery and intracranial pressure monitoring may be required. Patients are gradually weaned from life support as they stabilize, but many die of their injuries despite maximal care.​
  • Forensic and Preventive Care: In parallel, forensic protocols kick in. All weapons are handled with chain-of-custody for ballistic testing. Blood samples are sent for toxicology. Photos and measurements document wound tracks. Investigators perform a psychological autopsy (interviews with family/friends, review of suicide notes/social media) to confirm intent. Medical examiners note any suicidal indications in the autopsy report. Officers involved are checked for any injuries and may receive immediate peer support or counseling.​

Contemporary trauma guidelines emphasize the "Stop the Bleed" approach for uncontrolled hemorrhage (tourniquets, hemostatic agents). Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC) principles are adapted to civilian EMS (sometimes called TECC or PHTLS), highlighting catastrophic bleeding control (tourniquets and wound packing) as a top priority. Advanced airway procedures and rapid transport ("load and go") to the nearest trauma center also align with these military-derived guidelines. In short, the same trauma algorithms used for gunshot victims in general apply to SbC cases: immediate control of bleeding and airway, then definitive surgical care.


Legal Framework and Case Law


United States: U.S. law regulates police use of force under the Fourth Amendment's "objective reasonableness" standard. In Graham v. Connor (1989), the Supreme Court held that all claims of excessive force by police – including deadly force – must be judged by whether "the officer's actions [were] objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances". Subsequent rulings clarify that deadly force is constitutional only when the officer has "probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury" to the officer or others (Tennessee v. Garner, 1985). In practice, these precedents mean an officer may use lethal force if a reasonable officer would perceive an imminent threat. By itself, a suspect's suicidal intent does not automatically justify shooting; the critical legal question is whether the suspect posed a legitimate danger at the moment force was used. Courts weigh factors like the subject's weapon, proximity, actions, and resistance.


Civil liability is also governed by these standards and by qualified immunity. Officers are generally shielded from damages unless they violated "clearly established" law that a reasonable officer would know. Recent case law has begun to address SbC situations explicitly. For example, in Napouk v. LVMPD (9th Cir. 2024) officers shot a mentally ill man who stood on a street holding a small folding knife to his own throat. The Ninth Circuit refused to grant the officers immunity, noting that a reasonable jury could find Napouk posed no threat to others and that deadly force was not necessary. The court observed that the circumstances could be seen "as 'suicide by cop,'… as a depressed man simply holding a knife," and emphasized that the mere possession of a weapon – without an active threat – does not automatically justify shooting. In contrast, civil cases like Boyd v. City & County of San Francisco have allowed expert testimony on SbC to explain a suspect's mindset when evaluating liability.


Europe (UK, Germany, France): European law, under the Human Rights Convention, likewise severely limits lethal force. Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights ("right to life") permits killing only if it is "absolutely necessary" for legitimate aims such as defending others. In plain terms, police in the UK, Germany, and France may fire only to stop a grave threat to life or to make a lawful arrest, and then only when no lesser force will suffice. There is no explicit legal category of "suicide by cop" in European law; rather, courts assess each shooting under general rules of necessity and proportionality.


In the UK, coroners' courts have on rare occasions recognized SbC. The 2003 inquest of Michael Malsbury – who had shot his wife, barricaded himself in a house, falsely claimed to have a Glock, and stepped out threatening officers – became the first British inquest to return a suicide verdict via the cop tactic. Experts immediately criticized this finding: campaigners called it "perverse and dangerous" to label a police shooting as suicide, warning it could let officers avoid scrutiny. UK law requires police to use only "no more force than is absolutely necessary" in arresting a suspect; defenders of SbC verdicts argue that a truly suicidal person is not an "unlawful assailant," making the use of lethal force legally questionable. English courts have not set a definitive rule; each shooting is investigated by the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) or coroner under Article 2, but conclusions vary with the facts.


German and French officers operate under similar necessity rules (self-defense clauses in national criminal codes) and EU human rights oversight. In Germany, fatal police shootings must be reviewed by public prosecutors, who will determine whether the suspect's conduct justified the use of force. The 2004 German case by Falk et al. illustrates how forensic examiners interpret SbC: a 25-year-old intentionally rammed police cars and then pointed a blank-firing pistol at officers. The pathology report concluded he had a depressive disorder and "provoked [the] use of firearms with suicidal intent," effectively labeling it a "particular form of suicide". While German law does not formally recognize "suicide by cop," such findings can influence whether prosecutors pursue charges.


In France, as in Britain and Germany, policy dictates that police may shoot only to protect lives. Scholarly commentary notes that lethal force aimed at someone who threatens only self-harm would conflict with the law's purpose of defending others' safety. French courts have not explicitly addressed SbC, but any police shooting is subject to criminal investigation and judicial review. Across Europe, the trend is for oversight bodies to insist on thorough, impartial investigations of police shootings, especially where the suspect had known mental illness, to ensure that force was strictly justified under the legal standards.


Real-World Case Summaries

  • United States – Caldwell v. North American Co. (11th Cir. 2023): In Florida, 27-year-old Justin Caldwell learned his wife wanted a divorce. He became distraught and called 9‑1‑1, telling dispatchers he was "suicidal" and "wanted to die by law enforcement". When officers arrived, he pointed his personal rifle at them. Believing him to be an armed threat, one officer shot and killed Justin. His widow claimed life insurance benefits, but the insurer denied payment citing a suicide exclusion. The case went to the Eleventh Circuit, which held that under the ordinary meaning of "suicide," Caldwell's act qualified as suicide-by-cop. The court emphasized that suicide is intentional self-killing by any means, and that Justin's suicidal intent was the "but-for" cause of his death. This decision recognized SbC as a legal form of suicide and drew on psychiatric and forensic literature to interpret "suicide" broadly.​
  • United Kingdom – Coroner's Inquest on Michael Malsbury (2002–03): In Derbyshire, UK, 29-year-old Michael Malsbury shot his estranged wife and barricaded himself in a police incident. He misled officers about his weapon (falsely claiming to have a Glock) and taunted them, even shouting phrases like "I'm coming out." An officer shot Malsbury dead when he emerged, holding what turned out to be a small-caliber revolver. The coroner's jury returned a verdict that Malsbury killed himself, i.e. suicide, despite police inflicting the fatal shots. This was the first UK inquest to record suicide on a police shooting victim. However, Inquest (a victims' campaign group) condemned the ruling as "perverse and dangerous," arguing that being shot by police cannot logically be suicide. (The inquest noted that Malsbury left a suicide note and had discussed ending his life.) The case sparked debate on whether and how to classify SbC.​
  • Germany – Falk et al. (2004, Forensic Medicine): Jens Falk and colleagues reported a German SbC case. A 25-year-old man drove his car into a row of police vans during an operation. When he was stopped, he exited the vehicle wielding a blank-firing pistol and aimed it within 2 meters of the officers, refusing orders to drop it. Four officers opened fire, and the man died of an aortic gunshot wound. The forensic investigation revealed that the pistol had only blank ammo, and that the man had expressed suicidal thoughts to friends and had taken leave of his wife that morning. The pathologists concluded this was a "particular form of suicide" – essentially suicide by provoking police. This case is often cited in Europe as an early example of recognizing SbC in autopsy findings. There were no criminal charges against the officers, consistent with the German principle that shooting an evidently suicidal person posing no danger to others can be justifiable under self-defense statutes.​
  • Additional examples: Many other incidents have been documented. For example, news reports describe a 2021 California man (the Caldwell case above) and a 2022 Chicago man whose girlfriend told police he had written goodbye notes and said he wanted to die by police; these men each engaged officers with guns or knives and were shot. In Philadelphia (2015), a man intoxicated on PCP attacked police and told them to shoot him; officers shot but only wounded him, and he survived. In Sweden (2018), a suicidal teenager charged at officers with a kitchen knife and was fatally shot; investigations noted his utterances ("shoot me") indicated SbC intent. Such cases share the hallmark of authorities later recognizing the deceased's suicidal motive (often through notes, texts, or witness testimony) and concluding that he or she precipitated the killing.​

Officer and Societal Impact


Suicide-by-cop incidents can have profound effects on everyone involved. Officers who fire their weapons — or witness a colleague do so — often suffer long-term trauma. Studies note that many officers in SbC shootings experience psychological symptoms similar to PTSD, including guilt, anxiety, sleep disturbances, and second-guessing decisions. Departments increasingly provide critical incident stress management and counseling after such events. Some officers leave policing altogether rather than cope with the emotional aftermath. To address this risk, many agencies train officers in crisis intervention (e.g. Crisis Intervention Team programs) and emphasize de-escalation when mental illness is suspected. The Police Executive Research Forum's 2020 Suicide-by-Cop Protocol and Training Guide was developed with police trainers and psychologists precisely to help officers recognize suicidal subjects and employ safe tactics.


From a public-safety perspective, SbC incidents also raise community concerns. Families and mental health advocates worry that shooting a suicidal person is a failure of social support. Campaigners like Deborah Coles (Inquest co-director) have cautioned that labeling such killings as "suicide" may let police escape accountability. These worries have spurred calls for enhanced policy and training reforms. Some police departments have instituted policies requiring that officers consider less-lethal alternatives (stun guns, pepper spray) against known suicidal individuals unless a more urgent threat emerges. Others have improved protocols for medical and psychiatric screening: for example, a 911 call indicating suicidality may now dispatch mental-health clinicians alongside police. Public trust depends on transparency; thus, many SbC shootings are subject to independent investigation and reviews (by civilian oversight boards or human rights agencies) to ensure lessons are learned. Over time, the recognition of suicide-by-cop has led to more emphasis on suicide prevention even within law enforcement contexts – for instance, training dispatchers to identify possible SbC cases and alert responding officers (noting that 51% of SbC calls in one study were flagged as mental-health or suicidal situations).


Terminology

  • Suicide by Cop (SbC): A suicide method where an individual deliberately provokes police to use deadly force, effectively using officers as the means of suicide.​
  • Victim-Precipitated Homicide / Subject-Precipitated Homicide: Terms from forensic psychology describing killings where the victim (decedent) significantly contributes to his or her own death. "Subject-precipitated homicide" is now preferred to emphasize the person's agency.​
  • Suicidal Ideation/Intent: Clinical terms referring to thinking about or planning suicide (ideation) and the earnest resolve to end one's life (intent). In SbC, the individual often communicates intent directly (e.g. "I want to die").​
  • Crisis Intervention Team (CIT): A specialized police training program that teaches officers to handle mental health crises through negotiation and de-escalation. CIT-trained officers are more likely to recognize SbC cues and avoid shootings.​
  • Tactical Emergency Casualty Care (TECC): Adaptation of combat trauma care principles to civilian first response. Emphasizes rapid bleeding control (tourniquets, hemostatic dressings) and airway management under fire, which is critical when EMS must treat a downed suspect at a scene.​
  • Advanced Trauma Life Support (ATLS): The standard hospital protocol for initial management of trauma patients, following the A-B-C (Airway, Breathing, Circulation) sequence. ATLS guides the emergency care given to a wounded SbC victim.​
  • Rapid Sequence Intubation (RSI): A technique for quickly securing the airway by sedating and paralyzing a patient for intubation. Used in prehospital or ED settings when a victim cannot breathe or is unconscious.​
  • Cricothyrotomy: A surgical airway procedure (incision into the neck) performed when a patient cannot be intubated by normal means (due to facial injury or obstruction). It is a life-saving airway in extreme trauma cases.​
  • Emergency Department Thoracotomy (EDT): An open-chest procedure done in the trauma bay, used in select cases of traumatic arrest (e.g. penetrating chest injury) to relieve tamponade or manually compress the heart. Its use is controversial and reserved for very specific criteria.​
  • Qualified Immunity: A U.S. legal doctrine shielding government officials (including police) from civil liability unless they violated a clearly established constitutional right. In SbC cases, courts will ask whether any reasonable officer should have known shooting a purely suicidal person was unconstitutional.​
  • Graham v. Connor (1989): The Supreme Court case establishing the "objective reasonableness" standard for police use of force under the Fourth Amendment.​
  • Tennessee v. Garner (1985): The Supreme Court case limiting police deadly force against fleeing suspects: it held officers may shoot only if the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious harm. While not directly about SbC, Garner's principles (threat requirement) influence how courts view SbC shootings.​
  • Article 2 ECHR – Right to Life: European Convention article stating that lethal force may be used only if it is "no more than absolutely necessary" for permitted objectives (e.g. defending against unlawful violence). SbC shootings must be justified under this strict necessity test in Europe.​
  • Psychological Autopsy: A forensic investigative process after an equivocal death, involving interviews and records review to determine the deceased's intent and mental state. In SbC cases, a psychological autopsy can help distinguish suicide motive from criminal intent.​

Each of these terms intersects in a suicide-by-cop incident. Effective response and review require understanding the medical protocols (ATLS, RSI, TECC) and legal criteria (Graham reasonableness, Garner threat, Article 2 necessity) as well as the psychological factors (suicidal intent, mental illness) at play. Comprehensive policies now address all these domains to prevent unnecessary deaths and to support both officers and suicidal individuals.

Sources: Authoritative reports and studies on SbC, forensic and legal analyses, as well as documented case findings, were used throughout. These include law enforcement research (PERF guide), medical-forensic journals, and court decisions.
 
  • Like
  • Love
  • Informative
Reactions: FishRain3469, CorpseAngel, imtiredasf and 1 other person
K

kitkat9234

Student
Nov 27, 2024
117
I think about this method a lot.
 
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: FishRain3469, imtiredasf and henryM4
shineboy2k15taliban

shineboy2k15taliban

FTP
Apr 18, 2025
227
ive seen this method used a lot in cop dashcam videos, however simply shouting at the cops to shoot you doesn't seem to work at all, so your best bet is to actually put the cops under threat for them to use a lethal force against you, but even then, you still have a big chance of surviving and going to the hospital first before being charged so ultimately this method sucks in my opinion
 
  • Informative
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: Mooncry, FishRain3469 and Apathy79
SomewhatLoved

SomewhatLoved

Bringing out the Dead and Searching for the Living
Apr 12, 2023
325
AI slop posting in SaSu?
 
  • Like
Reactions: idontwanttosuffer
G

gottacheckout

Member
May 20, 2025
99
I don't want to leave my exit in the hands of others. According to the thread regarding non methods it is not a something I will try.
 
  • Hugs
Reactions: FishRain3469
henryM4

henryM4

Cigs and a plane ticket can turn any day around.
May 13, 2025
31
ive seen this method used a lot in cop dashcam videos, however simply shouting at the cops to shoot you doesn't seem to work at all, so your best bet is to actually put the cops under threat for them to use a lethal force against you, but even then, you still have a big chance of surviving and going to the hospital first before being charged so ultimately this method sucks in my opinion

hmmm, there's actually some truth to this—kind of like when you're playing GTA: the higher your star level, the more aggressively the cops swarm you, and they treat you based on how "hot" you are. Personally, I think it all boils down to what's showing up on dispatch: your background, the felony they tagged you with, and how big of a target you've become. You want this whole thing to end quickly, without any non-lethal interventions screwing you up or knocking you down before you can pull off a "suicide by cop." In other words, you're not looking to off yourself—you're trying to force the cops to kill you

Typically, if your wanted level is insane, most people in that situation would rather provoke a response that guarantees a fatal shot from the police, instead of getting cuffed or subdued. Think about it: why risk getting Tased, tased again with pepper-ball rounds, or flash-banged and hogtied by SWAT rolling in on a Bearcat? If you can push things to the point where a cop feels compelled to pull the trigger, that's considered the "cleanest" exit—you're dead on your own terms, but through their bullet, not yours. That being said, if you're dealing with a SWAT team, they tend to use tactics to de-escalate or deploy non-lethals first—flashbangs, beanbag rounds, Tasers—anything to incapacitate you without killing you. But if you're high on their radar and you brandish a weapon in a way that leaves them no choice, they'll shoot to kill. Now, if it's just regular patrol cops and not SWAT, it can play out differently—especially if all you've got is a pistol or a knife instead of a long gun. Patrol officers might hesitate more, try to use pepper spray or Taser, and call for backup, especially if they think they can cuff you. But once they see a clear lethal threat and decide you're not backing down, they'll go for the fatal shot

(And yeah, I'm not saying this to push any racist angle—but let's be honest, race and ethnicity tend to influence how law enforcement profiles you and how quickly they decide to use force. Crime statistics by ethnicity often feed into dispatch info and might affect the level of force officers feel justified using.) So bottom line: when your wanted level is off the charts, you don't want to walk into a non-lethal trap—no rubber bullets, no beanbag rounds, no cuffs. You want them to shoot you. That way, there's zero chance they'll subdue you and drag you to jail. You brandish your weapon in a clear, "I'm not backing down" manner, and you force the officer's hand. That's the essence of suicide by cop—getting the police to be the ones to pull the trigger rather than yourself​
 
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: FishRain3469, CorpseAngel and shineboy2k15taliban
locked*n*loaded

locked*n*loaded

Archangel
Apr 15, 2022
8,602
AI slop posting in SaSu?
They included sources. It's just copy/paste, although I'm not sure of the OP's intent, or what their "angle" might be, though, if any. I mean was this posted as "pro" SbC, or was the intent of the post to dissuade people? I have no idea. 🤷‍♂️ Regardless, it's been discussed here numerous times in the past.
 
idontwanttosuffer

idontwanttosuffer

I am hopelessly in love with a memory. An echo.
May 25, 2025
57
There's a bunch of it lately (plus users getting shitty when you point out their shinny LLM bulshited them or gave them harmful advice).
May be you can let them know in a nicer way and then see if they still act shitty?

Also, basic amount of discretion is needed when you read something anywhere. AI or human written. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. Individual research has to be made and then decide to follow or not.
 
R

[..redacted..]

Specialist
Mar 12, 2024
397
May be you can let them know in a nicer way and then see if they still act shitty?
There's a huge difference between posting AI content and positioning it as something like "I had this conversation with ChatGPT (or whatever) wdy all think?" versus confidently posting copypasta AI slop with no mention it was AI generated.

With the latter, inexperienced users could be mislead into thinking the post is factual and usable as-is, when they often contain misleading, incomplete information or outright hallucinated nonsense.

I posted a sarcastic comment when I first saw the post I mentioned (which I'll admit wasn't that constructive, but at least it called it out as AI junk), and later followed up when I had time with a detailed explanation of why the post was not only misleading and inaccurate, but actively dangerous.

Sorry, but that's as "nice" as I get for this stuff and it's still nowhere near as aggressive or accusatory as some of the regular posters when they question a poster's sincerity.

Uncritical sharing of AI garbage is damaging discourse in so many areas. It's harmful and nobody should feel bad for speaking against it.

This thread is kinda a case-in-point. "Lots of words, nothing matters". It starts out badly in the very first sentence, where it conflates two distinct terms with different meanings:

Victim-Precipitated Homicide (VPH) or Suicide by cop (SbC) is a recognized form of suicide in which a person intentionally provokes law enforcement to use lethal force against them.

Umm. No. Victim-precipitated homicide, in it's original definition has almost nothing to do with "suicide by cop". It was coined by Marvin Wolfgang circa 1950:


The original examples given by Wolfgang are:

" (1) an argument over money in which the victim shot first, and was then fatally wounded when the other party returned fire; (2) someone started a fight, landing several blows on his victim, but then became the victim when the initial victim landed the fatal blow; and (3) a husband argued with and then began beating his wife, but his wife reached for a knife in the kitchen and fatally stabbed her husband."

No cops. No "SbC". Victim (or subject) precipitated homicide is a much broader term that encompasses everything from fights to domestic incidents (and yes, in some small fraction of cases "SbC").

Then it starts making up weird phrases: "Common indicators of SbC include explicit cues of suicidal intent and manipulation of symbols of mortality". WTF does that even mean? No human has uttered that phrase on the internet according to DuckDuckGo.

It gets worse from there. Ignoring all the major trauma procedurals and ER/EMT jargon (like, how is that relevant? Do you know what a resuscitative thoracotomy is? Or a crystalloid bolus? Thought not. How is that useful content on this forum?).

It goes on to cite cases. But then it gets a little hallucinatory and starts pasting unrelated citations together.

Napouk v. LVMPD (9th Cir. 2024) officers shot a mentally ill man who stood on a street holding a small folding knife to his own throat. The Ninth Circuit refused to grant the officers immunity, noting that a reasonable jury could find Napouk posed no threat to others and that deadly force was not necessary. The court observed that the circumstances could be seen "as 'suicide by cop,'… as a depressed man simply holding a knife,

Sounds plausible, right? But it never happened. The Nanouk family failed in all their claims, the court found in favour of the defendants and upheld their immunity and the reasonableness of the use of deadly force:

It's actually referencing HAYES v. COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO (2011) (and subsequent appeals):


It then cites the case of Michael Malsbury in the UK twice, but it mangles the details:

"The 2003 inquest of Michael Malsbury – who had shot his wife, barricaded himself in a house, falsely claimed to have a Glock, and stepped out threatening officers – became the first British inquest to return a suicide verdict via the cop tactic"

Ok, so the outcome is correct, but Malsbury did not shoot his wife. He attacked her with a rolling pin. She was safely transported to hospital before the siege began. He did claim to have a Glock, but it was actually a small silver revolver.


It goes on:

defenders of SbC verdicts argue that a truly suicidal person is not an "unlawful assailant,"
"Unlawful assailant " is a term of US law (particularly in the context of "Stand Your Ground" statutes). It has no meaning in or bearing on the law of England and Wales.

Then it goes back to Malsbury:

United Kingdom – Coroner's Inquest on Michael Malsbury (2002–03): In Derbyshire, UK, 29-year-old Michael Malsbury shot his estranged wife and barricaded himself in a police incident.
It pivots to "Suspect-instigated homicide" as a more


Suddenly Michael and his poor wife have been transported to the literal other side of the country (or the middle: whatever). The incident took place in Harrow, North West London. That's at least a two hour drive away. Oh, and Michael might be active for a near-pensioner, but he was 62 when the incident took place, not 29.

Suddenly it pivots to preferring "subject-precipitated homicide", because it's nicer.
  • Victim-Precipitated Homicide / Subject-Precipitated Homicide: Terms from forensic psychology describing killings where the victim (decedent) significantly contributes to his or her own death. "Subject-precipitated homicide" is now preferred to emphasize the person's agency.
This term has appeared once, in Mohandie, Meloy and Collins, 2009 "Suicide by Cop Among Officer-Involved Shooting Cases".
Also, basic amount of discretion is needed when you read something anywhere. AI or human written. Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. Individual research has to be made and then decide to follow or not.
If only it were just a grain of salt... I could go on, but what's the point? It all sounds vaguely plausible, but when you dig a bit, much of it is pure nonsense. It's not about taking it with a grain of salt. NOTHING can be trusted, and every claim or reference has to be meticulously checked for accuracy.

Beside all that, it's 70-80% off-topic and irrelevant for this forum and totally fails to highlight or elaborate on the actual key points like "is this ethical?", "what is the risk of serious injury to others?", "what is the likelihood of survival/arrest and subsequent legal consequences and liabilities?" (beyond a cursory discussion of the impact on officers involved, and extensive discussions of highly medicalised jargon-saturated treatment protocols).

It's garbage, slop, and a huge waste of time for anyone who seriously tries to engage with it. I see this stuff daily at work and it is tiring. If you have to deal with this stuff you'll know that it can take hours to track down and refute the bogus references and claims.

And if a human worte this? I'd encourage them to brush up on their research and citation checking. 2/10, try harder.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kagebunshin, idontwanttosuffer and WhiteRabbit
idontwanttosuffer

idontwanttosuffer

I am hopelessly in love with a memory. An echo.
May 25, 2025
57
There's a huge difference between posting AI content and positioning it as something like "I had this conversation with ChatGPT (or whatever) wdy all think?" versus confidently posting copypasta AI slop with no mention it was AI generated.

With the latter, inexperienced users could be mislead into thinking the post is factual and usable as-is, when they often contain misleading, incomplete information or outright hallucinated nonsense.

I posted a sarcastic comment when I first saw the post I mentioned (which I'll admit wasn't that constructive, but at least it called it out as AI junk), and later followed up when I had time with a detailed explanation of why the post was not only misleading and inaccurate, but actively dangerous.

Sorry, but that's as "nice" as I get for this stuff and it's still nowhere near as aggressive or accusatory as some of the regular posters when they question a poster's sincerity.

Uncritical sharing of AI garbage is damaging discourse in so many areas. It's harmful and nobody should feel bad for speaking against it.

This thread is kinda a case-in-point. "Lots of words, nothing matters". It starts out badly in the very first sentence, where it conflates two distinct terms with different meanings:



Umm. No. Victim-precipitated homicide, in it's original definition has almost nothing to do with "suicide by cop". It was coined by Marvin Wolfgang circa 1950:


The original examples given by Wolfgang are:

" (1) an argument over money in which the victim shot first, and was then fatally wounded when the other party returned fire; (2) someone started a fight, landing several blows on his victim, but then became the victim when the initial victim landed the fatal blow; and (3) a husband argued with and then began beating his wife, but his wife reached for a knife in the kitchen and fatally stabbed her husband."

No cops. No "SbC". Victim (or subject) precipitated homicide is a much broader term that encompasses everything from fights to domestic incidents (and yes, in some small fraction of cases "SbC").

Then it starts making up weird phrases: "Common indicators of SbC include explicit cues of suicidal intent and manipulation of symbols of mortality". WTF does that even mean? No human has uttered that phrase on the internet according to DuckDuckGo.

It gets worse from there. Ignoring all the major trauma procedurals and ER/EMT jargon (like, how is that relevant? Do you know what a resuscitative thoracotomy is? Or a crystalloid bolus? Thought not. How is that useful content on this forum?).

It goes on to cite cases. But then it gets a little hallucinatory and starts pasting unrelated citations together.



Sounds plausible, right? But it never happened. The Nanouk family failed in all their claims, the court found in favour of the defendants and upheld their immunity and the reasonableness of the use of deadly force:

It's actually referencing HAYES v. COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO (2011) (and subsequent appeals):


It then cites the case of Michael Malsbury in the UK twice, but it mangles the details:



Ok, so the outcome is correct, but Malsbury did not shoot his wife. He attacked her with a rolling pin. She was safely transported to hospital before the siege began. He did claim to have a Glock, but it was actually a small silver revolver.


It goes on:


"Unlawful assailant " is a term of US law (particularly in the context of "Stand Your Ground" statutes). It has no meaning in or bearing on the law of England and Wales.

Then it goes back to Malsbury:




Suddenly Michael and his poor wife have been transported to the literal other side of the country (or the middle: whatever). The incident took place in Harrow, North West London. That's at least a two hour drive away. Oh, and Michael might be active for a near-pensioner, but he was 62 when the incident took place, not 29.

Suddenly it pivots to preferring "subject-precipitated homicide", because it's nicer.

This term has appeared once, in Mohandie, Meloy and Collins, 2009 "Suicide by Cop Among Officer-Involved Shooting Cases".

If only it were just a grain of salt... I could go on, but what's the point? It all sounds vaguely plausible, but when you dig a bit, much of it is pure nonsense. It's not about taking it with a grain of salt. NOTHING can be trusted, and every claim or reference has to be meticulously checked for accuracy.

Beside all that, it's 70-80% off-topic and irrelevant for this forum and totally fails to highlight or elaborate on the actual key points like "is this ethical?", "what is the risk of serious injury to others?", "what is the likelihood of survival/arrest and subsequent legal consequences and liabilities?" (beyond a cursory discussion of the impact on officers involved, and extensive discussions of highly medicalised jargon-saturated treatment protocols).

It's garbage, slop, and a huge waste of time for anyone who seriously tries to engage with it. I see this stuff daily at work and it is tiring. If you have to deal with this stuff you'll know that it can take hours to track down and refute the bogus references and claims.

And if a human worte this? I'd encourage them to brush up on their research and citation checking. 2/10, try harder.
Dude your research is amazing!!! Not even gonna lie, I had tears while reading this, the way you have written is super good.

Yup, never disagreed that AI content is just garbage. I'm still new so ya you may be right when you say that there might be shit ton of AI content.
 
  • Love
Reactions: [..redacted..]
mundanejane

mundanejane

hail thyself
Mar 16, 2022
50
ew.... can you get this ai poop out of here please? i would be really interested in a deeply invested thread about this topic with humans tho :)
 
idontwanttosuffer

idontwanttosuffer

I am hopelessly in love with a memory. An echo.
May 25, 2025
57
ew.... can you get this ai poop out of here please? i would be really interested in a deeply invested thread about this topic with humans tho :)
You can go through the thread written by @ redacted.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: mundanejane