Discussion Vandals destroy pro-life notes plastered on bridge

[itsmeagain]

I didn't mean the people here, just the general public.

The attitude of "after everything has been tried and only ander these conditions which we dictate..." is exactly what I mean by paternalism.

yes we're talking over each other.

Kay! bahah. Pm'd you!

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Yes shaming is a big issue but that's another topic.

What I am trying to say is that suicide-prevention is a selfish, misguided endeavour. The problem is not suicide, suicide is the solution to the problem and that's what suicide-prevention and 'mental health' awareness are trying to divert the attention from; the function they perform is to spare society at large to look at the problems it inherently creates, at the lives it shatters, the losers that are inevitable and are growing in numbers. They are saying suicide is bad and occurs because people are insane or ill while we mare saying suicide is the solution for material problems in the material world which befall an individual.

And an insidious tactic at that, because it disguises itself as care. Shaming is overt, while it's much harder to grasp for the general public (and even for us) that mental health awareness and suicide prevention serve a similar function.

 

[TAW122]

Wow, this thread actually reached a big audience and I am going to be replying to a few people now.

@Viola and @drowinginsorrowww fully agreed with both of you. These people (prolifers and anti-choice people) just want to show how much they care so society can pat them on the back rather than putting real effort to improving the lives of the suicidal (which takes investment, time, effort, responsibility).

These pro-life notes make me want to barf. The hilarious thing is that the vandals were at least honest in their "hateful" messages. One photo showed a message saying "No one cares." That's actually quite true; even the pro-lifers who act like they care won't go beyond calling the police and getting people hospitalized, just so they can pat themselves on the backs and tell themselves that they "saved a life."

Agreed and while I may not fully agree with some of the vandals (those that encourage or incite the vulnerable to CTB), I do believe they are "honest" with how cold the world is. I think instead of spreading the "hateful" messages they spread pro-choice or philosophical messages, it might be seen in a 'slightly' better light and the media would have a harder time sensationalizing it but that's just my two cents.

I understand the sentiment of notes, but they're useless to anyone who is serious about ctb. If I was about to jump off a bridge and saw a note saying "you are loved" "you will be missed" or some bullshit like that it would just make me feel worse because they're not true.

Same here, it's downright patronizing and insincere as it's just a virtuous signal (gesture) of saying "they care". I'm a believe of "talk is cheap" and that applies to this situation here.



@itsmeagain No worries, you didn't offend me with your post. It makes sense and I can see the times where it "can" help someone, those who are impulsive and aren't truly ready for CTB. Then again, imho, those who do it without careful consideration are generally those who aren't ready to CTB but of course as a pro-choice person, I am not going to dictate what they do. I will neither dissuade nor persuade and just let them be.

This is really the frontier for us: anti suicide prevention. It's taboo enough to arouse attention (which is exactly what we need), the only problem is how to organize suicidal people to go out and protest suicide prevention rallies.

Absolutely, and I have yet to see a counter protest at the suicide prevention rallies. Sure, I'd imagine we'd get ostracized and criticized heavily, but one such idea would be to go with the "pro-choice" stance when counter protesting as that would be what we really stand for; we are for people making their own decisions for themselves and not imposing neither life nor death on another individual.

@a.n.kirillov In regards to your posts between itsmeagain, yes, I agree with you that once a person reaches a certain age (I'll go with 18+ since that is the age that the government considers a person to be an 'legal' adult in most jurisdictions. When someone is 18+ their lives change dramatically as they are no longer considered a minor, have the same rights afforded to as most other legal adults, including the right to vote, the right to free speech, can buy tobacco products, enlist, and more. Therefore, I think that is a good arbitrary starting point to where they should be allowed to choose - after all, if one is able to make a choice that "could" lead to death - enlisting and going to war/joining the military, etc. then voluntarily choosing to die isn't that far off.)

The replacement notes that were left, "no one cares", "plz jump", "a bullet is faster"... I take a lot more issue with those than idle love notes. Those are disgusting. And to think these people live among us.

Yes, I do agree with your sentiment there that some of the vandals were egging the "would be jumpers" to go on and most of us, pro-choicers would object to that indeed. As someone

 

[Pryras]

Can't say I've ever changed my mind after seeing a pro-life "don't hurt yourself, call this #" note, it doesn't help.

These people do not care about you, will not listen to you, and then throw you on some antidepressants and call it a day. You know what stopped me from immediately CTB? Being heard, that's it. Having my feelings validated not trivialized with false hope.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

@thrw_a_way1221221 do you know the YouTuber EyeDoubtIt? His brother committed suicide and he is decidedly anti-suicide-prevention. On a recent podcast episode he talked about going to suicide-prevention-marches and arguing with them. I will link the two videos.

As to who should be allowed to end their lives I would say two conditions have to apply, 1) certain age barrier and 2) a certain waiting period to make sure it isn't an impulsive decision. And honestly, I think these two conditions suffice for all cases, including bipolar, schizophrenic or otherwise 'mentally ill' people.

 

[TAW122]

You know what stopped me from immediately CTB? Being heard, that's it. Having my feelings validated not trivialized with false hope.

Same and this is why this forum has helped me during hard times, being able to talk honesty without judgment, fear of hospitalization, gaslighting, patronization, and other ills have given me hope to live longer and hold on a bit longer. Though another thing that kept me around is having my goals met and succeeded; that alone has kept me from getting on the bus, especially in 2019. The ladyfriend that meant a lot to me actually helped me live through most of 2019 and then losing my virginity (before age 30) is a big reason I still clung onto life, and saw 2020 (otherwise I could have been dead in May 2019 and December 2019 respectively). Don't mistake it for no longer being suicidal, I've simply went from actively suicidal to passively. Now 2020 is a different story altogether due to life circumstances, events and the long term problems (without a solution) but that's for another topic.

@thrw_a_way1221221 do you know the YouTuber EyeDoubtIt? His brother committed suicide and he is decidedly anti-suicide-prevention. On a recent podcast episode he talked about going to suicide-prevention-marches and arguing with them. I will link the two videos.

As to who should be allowed to end their lives I would say two conditions have to apply, 1) certain age barrier and 2) a certain waiting period to make sure it isn't an impulsive decision. And honestly, I think these two conditions suffice for all cases, including bipolar, schizophrenic or otherwise 'mentally ill' people.

Yes, I know of him, in fact, I think I may have contributed to him getting a lot of views on his video from this thread over a year ago.

 

[Deleted member 14386]

Same and this is why this forum has helped me during hard times, being able to talk honesty without judgment, fear of hospitalization, gaslighting, patronization, and other ills have given me hope to live longer and hold on a bit longer.

This is exactly how I feel and I'm actively trying to push people away (even here) because the loss may be too much. But it's emotions in the face of logic, when I step back and look. It wouldn't stop me

 

[umniak]

I just want to know how people make it over the barrier? Do they drive there with a ladder? I live in California and this appeals to me as a last resort; however, I've lost everything and don't have a car anymore. It would be pretty hard to find an uber that would agree to strap a ladder on the roof of his car.

 

[throwaway_2620]

After reading those articles, I must say I agree with you, TAW122. Just because that woman lost loved ones (according to the article) doesn't make it right to project her agenda (of pro-life stance) and virtual signalling onto others. While I don't encourage illegal activity, I can understand why those so called "vandals" tore down those signs.

 

[Shinbu]

I don't mind the notes. I can see why it wouldn't help a lot of people that has issues that are unfixable. It wouldn't help me in my case.

 

[TAW122]

I don't mind the notes. I can see why it wouldn't help a lot of people that has issues that are unfixable. It wouldn't help me in my case.

Same here, I've pretty much made up my mind and any inane platitudes will not sway me otherwise. I am just wrapping things up in my remaining time alive in this world, making peace with everything I wish to, enjoy a few things, and then when the time and opportunity is right, just CTB and be free of suffering.

 

[Biggie]

Pro-lifers absolutely baffle me, its the same with pro-lifers for abortions. Clearly these people don't go through the pain we do every single day - oh what I would do to not have a mental health illness! They simply can't relate and it is pure ignorance.
Let us be, it is our life and we should be able to control what we do with it.

Why is it that if pro-choicers speak out about their opinions, they are shunned and disgraced. But when pro-lifers do it, they are hero's of today and praised in the media?

I'm so glad we have a save space in this forum to express our beliefs with like minded individuals.

 

[TAW122]

Why is it that if pro-choicers speak out about their opinions, they are shunned and disgraced. But when pro-lifers do it, they are hero's of today and praised in the media?

I'm so glad we have a save space in this forum to express our beliefs with like minded individuals.

To answer your rhetorical question, the simple answer off the top of my head is that msm (mainstream media) and society as well as government have a vested interest in keeping people alive to continue to fuel the (sick) system. A dead body is of no use to the state nor society (comprised of mostly normies, pro-lifers, NPCs, and such). Thus, society and government wants to keep others alive to show off they care (which they don't) and also to keep things running while maintaining the status quo.

I too, am glad that we have this platform to be able to discuss such topics without prejudice, judgment, and/or risk of civil, social, and legal troubles. Furthermore, this forum is a godsend as I cannot find any other place that is just as active as this place and still allows method discussion.

 

[snowman626]

those "notes of hope" are about as annoying as those comments on youtube that are like "whoever reads this i hope you live a long and happy life!" and gets like 2 million likes

 

[faust]

Every time you are passing by the pro-life note, see one thing, but read this:
1) Dead does not pay taxes;
2) Dead cannot wageslave;
3) Dead has no loans;
4) Dead cannot pay for insurance;
5) Dead is never sick.
You exploit the government or government exploits you...

 

[jecamole]

To answer your rhetorical question, the simple answer off the top of my head is that msm (mainstream media) and society as well as government have a vested interest in keeping people alive to continue to fuel the (sick) system. A dead body is of no use to the state nor society (comprised of mostly normies, pro-lifers, NPCs, and such). Thus, society and government wants to keep others alive to show off they care (which they don't) and also to keep things running while maintaining the status quo.

Nailed it for me. I tend to think much in the same way. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the world and that's with all the pro-life propaganda. Imagine what would happen if pro-choice policies were to become commonplace, with voluntary euthanasia being allowed for example. Even with all the regulation like waiting periods to avoid impulsiveness, I still think it would rise to the top cause of death in the world. Because people (especially the young) are more than ever wanting to escape the brokenness of the system. But since most societies as a whole need people to maintain themselves, it shuns such pro-choice positions because it can't afford to support it. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but that's how I view it.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not here trying to blame society for all my problems as most of them are of my own doing, just voicing my opinion on why I think pro-life ideology is so prominent in most countries.

 

[faust]

Nailed it for me. I tend to think much in the same way. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the world and that's with all the pro-life propaganda. Imagine what would happen if pro-choice policies were to become commonplace, with voluntary euthanasia being allowed for example. Even with all the regulation like waiting periods to avoid impulsiveness, I still think it would rise to the top cause of death in the world. Because people (especially the young) are more than ever wanting to escape the brokenness of the system. But since most societies as a whole need people to maintain themselves, it shuns such pro-choice positions because it can't afford to support it. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but that's how I view it.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not here trying to blame society for all my problems as most of them are of my own doing, just voicing my opinion on why I think pro-life ideology is so prominent in most countries.

It is quite funny that society is against overpopulation and at the same time against a suicide.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Nailed it for me. I tend to think much in the same way. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the world and that's with all the pro-life propaganda. Imagine what would happen if pro-choice policies were to become commonplace, with voluntary euthanasia being allowed for example. Even with all the regulation like waiting periods to avoid impulsiveness, I still think it would rise to the top cause of death in the world. Because people (especially the young) are more than ever wanting to escape the brokenness of the system. But since most societies as a whole need people to maintain themselves, it shuns such pro-choice positions because it can't afford to support it. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but that's how I view it.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not here trying to blame society for all my problems as most of them are of my own doing, just voicing my opinion on why I think pro-life ideology is so prominent in most countries.

That's not pessimistic it's realistic and you nailed it as well.

Also I dont want to come across as blaming society for all the suffering we endure, far from it. On the contrary, society is response for a lot of alleviation of unnecessary suffering which a life without the achievements of civilization would bring with it. It is the game of Life itself which will always create suffering and harm, ten losers for every winner and everyone will suffer disease and death at one time or another.

The most relevant problem for us is that it doesn't allow us (everyone of us) to obtain the means for a peaceful exit, and that is cruelty.

 

[tireddreamer]

I can't bring myself to hate the pro-lifers. Most of them probably think they are helping, they just don't realize all the damage they are causing. Their attitudes just stem from their ignorance and their subconscious.

For a lot of them, life has always been worth living. They've dealt with sadness, grief, and maybe a short bout of depression because pretty much everyone has experienced at least that. When they say idiotic things like "Hang in there, things will get better" they really mean that, because in their experience things always have gotten better.

Aversion to death is an evolutionary trait hardwired into us too. It would awfully hard to propagate the species if everybody's offing themselves and indifferent to death after all. That's why a lot of people are revolted at the very idea, anger is the monkey brain taking over.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I can't bring myself to hate the pro-lifers. Most of them probably think they are helping, they just don't realize all the damage they are causing. Their attitudes just stem from their ignorance and their subconscious.

For a lot of them, life has always been worth living. They've dealt with sadness, grief, and maybe a short bout of depression because pretty much everyone has experienced at least that. When they say idiotic things like "Hang in there, things will get better" they really mean that, because in their experience things always have gotten better.

Aversion to death is an evolutionary trait hardwired into us too. It would awfully hard to propagate the species if everybody's offing themselves and indifferent to death after all. That's why a lot of people are revolted at the very idea, anger is the monkey brain taking over.

But all too often they also mean: "Hang in there because I don't want to grief your death."

At least that's how it feels like with friends of mine; in addition to the robotic ones who can't possibly understand how anyone could ever be fed up with life. Those are the ones that really enjoyed school as well though and seem to have been born perfectly socialized and adapted to society. I would diagnose them as mentally ill if I had to.

 

[jgm63]

Greta won't be pleased , all those Plastic zip ties

I get why Greta doesn't like plastic zip ties, but where do zip ties "tie" (not deliberate joke, but I'll take it anyhow) in with this thread ?

 

[TAW122]

It is quite funny that society is against overpopulation and at the same time against a suicide.

That is the irony that most self-unaware (majority of the population, general population) people have. They lack the self-introspection and critical thinking skills to rationalize what they believe in and why they believe in what they do.

I can't bring myself to hate the pro-lifers. Most of them probably think they are helping, they just don't realize all the damage they are causing. Their attitudes just stem from their ignorance and their subconscious.

For a lot of them, life has always been worth living. They've dealt with sadness, grief, and maybe a short bout of depression because pretty much everyone has experienced at least that. When they say idiotic things like "Hang in there, things will get better" they really mean that, because in their experience things always have gotten better.

Aversion to death is an evolutionary trait hardwired into us too. It would awfully hard to propagate the species if everybody's offing themselves and indifferent to death after all. That's why a lot of people are revolted at the very idea, anger is the monkey brain taking over.

Very true and the aversion to death in them is MUCH stronger than the desire to die. As for the last two sentences, yes that would indeed be true of the human species, we would not be where we are today if ancient humans offed themselves or are indifferent towards death. As for the concept of freedom and rights, I think it is a relatively modern concept that only existed for a few centuries at most and then the concept of the right to die, less than a century old. There are some countries that are more open, progressive, and advanced than the US when it comes to these social and societal issues (Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany as of recent).

But all too often they also mean: "Hang in there because I don't want to grief your death."

At least that's how it feels like with friends of mine; in addition to the robotic ones who can't possibly understand how anyone could ever be fed up with life. Those are the ones that really enjoyed school as well though and seem to have been born perfectly socialized and adapted to society. I would diagnose them as mentally ill if I had to.

Yes, well said and the irony is that if they are pro-life (even if their reason for such a stance is just by default, and have no good reason), they are not considered mentally ill. I absolutely agree with you, being pro-life without good reason is also irrational.

 

[TAW122]

Here are a few other articles of the same bridge, this time, the vandals targetted the callboxes.

https://kcra.com/article/placer-cou...ide-hotline-call-boxes-disconnected/30818381/

https://kcra.com/article/vandal-targets-suicide-prevention-call-boxes-on-foresthill-bridge/30804062/

https://abc10.com/article/news/loca...dge/103-910f5d45-645e-4b8f-821a-591a6e94a9a7/

Once again, I don't condone nor approve of the actions that the vandals done, but I understand why they do it. I think it would be more productive if those vandals were to do a march/protest on how suicide prevention is oppressive and (temporarily) strips citizens' of their freedom as well as how messed up the mental health system is in the US (and most parts of the world). I think that might go further than just vandalising callboxes.

Edit: I can't unfurl the URL, if someone knows how to do so, feel free to let me know or maybe mods can unfurl my urls.

 

[k75]

I don't see a problem with the notes. Sure, they carry a message a lot of people are sick of, but notes are not the same as people trying to force their will on you. It's pro-life, but it's passive.

I'd much rather encounter pieces of paper than people, because if you don't like them, you're free to ignore and not read them. You only have to interact if you choose to. They don't affect my life in any way just by existing.

I even think they could help. If someone reads them and changes their mind, they maybe weren't in a state to make such a huge decision to begin with, so that's a good thing.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I don't see a problem with the notes. Sure, they carry a message a lot of people are sick of, but notes are not the same as people trying to force their will on you. It's pro-life, but it's passive.

I'd much rather encounter pieces of paper than people, because if you don't like them, you're free to ignore and not read them. You only have to interact if you choose to. They don't affect my life in any way just by existing.

I even think they could help. If someone reads them and changes their mind, they maybe weren't in a state to make such a huge decision to begin with, so that's a good thing.

Sure if you are at a very early stage of disillusionment you can still be reindoctrinated so to speak. Suicide intervention has been shown to be most effective early on and I think this is so at least in part because you aren't that alienated yet. A year ago I was still very much convinced by popular ideology on the subject, aka it does get better, most people regret their attempt, doctors can fix you, people do really care about you... all of this glib stuff. But suicide prevention is still the wrong cause, we need suffering prevention, harm prevention, falling through the cracks prevention. I would like someone on the bridge to debate who won't stop me if he can't convince me. That would be a fair exchange.

 

[k75]

I do agree that we need a lot of work put on preventing the causes rather than suicide itself. But I think these messages are a separate issue altogether.

The only thing the notes can possibly do is maybe prevent an impulse suicide, which is usually a good thing. So I see no harm in some girl sticking them places. Are they obnoxious? Possibly. Do they hurt me? Nope.

Regardless, I don't think anything should have been vandalized. Freedom doesn't just work conditionally.