Valet Job method

[WhyWasIBorn]

So this recently came to mind. I use to work as a valet at a few different places. South Florida. When I worked valet in a mall with a few restaurants that were attached to the mall (we as valet would drive people's cars who came for dinner or to drink or go to the mall). I would literally find a few guns every few weeks just chilling at the side of the seat.

These valet jobs are insanely easy to get and require no experience and no annoying interviews most of the time even for someone still in their teens. In mid 20's now. In my opinion, if you were to prepare a note, and somehow throw a towel over you while you took the gun and maybe looked up the knowledge on how to load that specific gun on your phone, then aim it wherever is desirable, put the note on the dashboard and park the car somewhere where no one will find it clearly except to see the note first.

I know being in someone's car is not ideal for them, so maybe you could step out and take the gun elsewhere while leaving your ID and a note so that person who owns the gun doesn't take responsibility.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

You know, this isn't a bad idea to me. If someone is enough of a dumbass to leave their gun in the car, and give someone they don't know access to both the gun and the car, then I don't feel a ton of pity for them if their car becomes a suicide scene, and I have tons of compassion. In this case, I have compassion for how much of a dumbass they are, and that they'll experience logical consequences for it.

 

[Anonymoussn]

I kind of agree that the person is a dumbass for leaving a loaded gun in their car, which somewhat diminishes my sympathy for them. I still think though it would be good if you could avoid doing it in their car, if at all possible. I mean, whilst they shouldn't have left the gun in the car, it still could be a traumatic experience for them that might effect them for the rest of their life.

How hard is it to just buy a gun in Florida anyway? I thought they handed them out like candy in The States?

 

[krsu]

too bad I can't drive for shit

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I kind of agree that the person is a dumbass for leaving a loaded gun in their car, which somewhat diminishes my sympathy for them. I still think though it would be good if you could avoid doing it in their car, if at all possible. I mean, whilst they shouldn't have left the gun in the car, it still could be a traumatic experience for them that might effect them for the rest of their life.

How hard is it to just buy a gun in Florida anyway? I thought they handed them out like candy in The States?

This is hard. I caught myself writing, "I'm not saying they deserve it but..."

Which means that I am. Uncomfortable but true. (Edit: By that I mean that I don't think they deserve it, and yet I recognize I in fact thought that they did. That's what was uncomfortable. So I've changed that and I don't think it anymore. No one deserves harm, even if they've left themselves exposed to it.)

I think about what you did, that they could be traumatized. And then I think about the fact that they have a violent weapon in their car in plain view of whoever enters. They had it out when they were driving, so they had to be anticipating violence. Doesn't sound like someone who's going to be traumatized. I can't say they're asking for it any more than a train conductor is asking for someone to jump in front of a train, that's more of a known job hazard, and it can still be traumatizing even if expected. They're not a dumbass for conducting a train. So...with that logic, then the dumbass, I mean, person* who leaves out a tool of violence isn't asking for someone to suicide in their car, and they may conceivably be traumatized by it.

I want to make this justifiable, though. I admit it. I've done a lot of mental gymnastics and I think what I'll go with is that suicidal folks look for opportunity like a burglar looks for the opportunity of an unlocked door (not that we're criminals! Maybe there's a better analogy.). This situation is an opportunity. It is almost inevitable that someone will be traumatized by the scene of a suicide and by the body, and the owner of the car and the gun would be at the bottom of my list of people to go out of my way to ensure aren't traumatized. If someone's gotta be, they get the least amount of my concern and effort. If they're a child molester, even better, but likely impossible to find out.


* How do people do text strikethroughs in comments? I've never been able to figure it out!

 

[esse_est_percipi]

* How do people do text strikethroughs in comments? I've never been able to figure it out!

You mean like this? Highlight the comment/word, then click the strikethrough sign next the underline sign.

 

[Aap]

are you kidding? The logical consequences of it? So if a valet drives the car into a tree, the car owner deserved it? If they left a knife in the car, the owner deserves it? If someone has a gun in their house, and a repair or cleaning person finds it, the owner deserves it? What if they leave a rope lying around? I can't imagine you find this intellectually consistent. It sounds like you just don't like guns and dislike their owners.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

You mean like this? Highlight the comment/word, then click the strikethrough sign next the underline sign.

I'm on a tablet and, same as a phone, there is no strikethrough next to the underline...until now when I turn the tablet to landscape. Thanks!

 

[ladolcemorte]

A reminder that this would only work in the US, or other countries where guns are easy to come by.

(I know that is probably self explanatory...but my little Canadian heart skipped a beat while reading this..)

 

[MartyByrde]

So this recently came to mind. I use to work as a valet at a few different places. South Florida. When I worked valet in a mall with a few restaurants that were attached to the mall (we as valet would drive people's cars who came for dinner or to drink or go to the mall). I would literally find a few guns every few weeks just chilling at the side of the seat.

These valet jobs are insanely easy to get and require no experience and no annoying interviews most of the time even for someone still in their teens. In mid 20's now. In my opinion, if you were to prepare a note, and somehow throw a towel over you while you took the gun and maybe looked up the knowledge on how to load that specific gun on your phone, then aim it wherever is desirable, put the note on the dashboard and park the car somewhere where no one will find it clearly except to see the note first.

I know being in someone's car is not ideal for them, so maybe you could step out and take the gun elsewhere while leaving your ID and a note so that person who owns the gun doesn't take responsibility.

If the gun is that readily available in the car, it's most likely loaded.

 

[PJFord]

How hard is it to just buy a gun in Florida anyway? I thought they handed them out like candy in The States?

I looked at a gun initially for CTB. In the US we have the Second Amendment which allows people to own guns. It's always under threat of being rescinded, and whenever our country is in chaos — like this year for many reasons — gun sales go up exponentially. In my county in California there are two gun shops and the lines for both are miles long every day. There is a10 day waiting and approval period, primarily so a gun is not purchased on impulse for suicide, crime of passion, or other rash activities. However, today due to COVID and restrictions on office work, I've heard the approval process is taking weeks and months.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

This thread is the first one that's seriously challenged my ethics! I'm all for people taking responsbility for their own suicide and not involving others. I'm a strong proponent of having my boundaries recognized and striving to recognize others' boundaries. I feel a lot of guilt for even small infractions of my ethics.

Relationships are an important consideration in suicide. Someone always has to find the body, and it's less traumatic if that person isn't personally known to them or anyone they know. I personally think it's awful to use the gun of someone one knows, and it's going to have a much greater impact on that person than it would on a total stranger.

In the valet scenario I think, okay, what if they had a rope in the car? That feels kind of shitty to me because a rope is not a weapon. It has tons of uses, very few of them violent. One would not reasonably expect that if they left a rope in the car, someone would see it as an opportunity to do harm to others or themselves.

A gun has one purpose: violence. Its uses are to defend or to assault, to injure or to kill. It could also be used for a paperweight, but it's not expected.

The OP has said that several people a week left guns out in the open in their cars. I acknowledge that for some this could be accidental. They may return to the car and think, "Holy fuck! That valet could have used my gun to rob a store and I would be implicated! Whew! Lesson learned!"

With regard to ethics, if someone is suicidal, taking a job for the opportunity to get access to a gun that's left out is targeting another. It's not taking personal responsibility for their own suicide, it's involving an unwilling other, same as the train method. In my personal ethics, that's not okay.

However, I'm not so idealistic and living in a dream world that I don't recognize people are going to do things that cause harm to others; that's the point of having a personal ethic and boundaries, so that we won't cause harm. But still, every single human being experiences suffering at the hands of other humans. Sometimes it's excusable to some degree, sometimes not.

If I heard about someone I loved having left out their gun in their car, and the valet used it for suicide, I'd see their personal responsbility in that, same as if they left their house unlocked and had things stolen. I'd be hurt for them, and at first feel righteous indignation on their behalf, but I also recognize that everyone -- even people I love, even me -- is responsible for self-protection. No one is ever at fault for being mugged, but if they walk down a dark alley alone in a bad neighborhood, they're not taking responsbility for their self-protection, either. I'm not going to point a finger and say, "You asked for it," but I am going to feel the discomfort of knowing they played a role in their own harm. Heck, I was sexually assaulted decades ago by someone who threw up huge red flags; he's at fault for assaulting me, but I did not take the responsibility to act to protect myself, and that's an uncomfortable fact. In all of these situations, I feel great compassion for the victim who suffered the consequences of making an error in either awareness or judgment; in my case, it was a combination of both. Humans make such errors, that's why I don't say, "You asked for it."

CONCLUSION:

The person who leaves a gun out in the open in their car, and hands someone else the keys to the car, is not taking personal responsbility for their property, their car and their gun, the second of which happens to be a tool whose sole purpose is to do violence. If they made a mistake by leaving out the gun, I have tons of compassion for their experiencing horrible unforseen consequences of that action, but it's a tool of extreme violence, and so requires extreme personal responsibility and caution.

 

[MartyByrde]

This thread is the first one that's seriously challenged my ethics! I'm all for people taking responsbility for their own suicide and not involving others. I'm a strong proponent of having my boundaries recognized and striving to recognize others' boundaries. I feel a lot of guilt for even small infractions of my ethics.

Relationships are an important consideration in suicide. Someone always has to find the body, and it's less traumatic if that person isn't personally known to them or anyone they know. I personally think it's awful to use the gun of someone one knows, and it's going to have a much greater impact on that person than it would on a total stranger.

In the valet scenario I think, okay, what if they had a rope in the car? That feels kind of shitty to me because a rope is not a weapon. It has tons of uses, very few of them violent. One would not reasonably expect that if they left a rope in the car, someone would see it as an opportunity to do harm to others or themselves.

A gun has one purpose: violence. Its uses are to defend or to assault, to injure or to kill. It could also be used for a paperweight, but it's not expected.

The OP has said that several people a week left guns out in the open in their cars. I acknowledge that for some this could be accidental. They may return to the car and think, "Holy fuck! That valet could have used my gun to rob a store and I would be implicated! Whew! Lesson learned!"

With regard to ethics, if someone is suicidal, taking a job for the opportunity to get access to a gun that's left out is targeting another. It's not taking personal responsibility for their own suicide, it's involving an unwilling other, same as the train method. In my personal ethics, that's not okay.

However, I'm not so idealistic and living in a dream world that I don't recognize people are going to do things that cause harm to others; that's the point of having a personal ethic and boundaries, so that we won't cause harm. But still, every single human being experiences suffering at the hands of other humans. Sometimes it's excusable to some degree, sometimes not.

If I heard about someone I loved having left out their gun in their car, and the valet used it for suicide, I'd see their personal responsbility in that, same as if they left their house unlocked and had things stolen. I'd be hurt for them, and at first feel righteous indignation on their behalf, but I also recognize that everyone -- even people I love, even me -- is responsible for self-protection. No one is ever at fault for being mugged, but if they walk down a dark alley alone in a bad neighborhood, they're not taking responsbility for their self-protection, either. I'm not going to point a finger and say, "You asked for it," but I am going to feel the discomfort of knowing they played a role in their own harm. Heck, I was sexually assaulted decades ago by someone who threw up huge red flags; he's at fault for assaulting me, but I did not take the responsibility to act to protect myself, and that's an uncomfortable fact. In all of these situations, I feel great compassion for the victim who suffered the consequences of making an error in either awareness or judgment; in my case, it was a combination of both. Humans make such errors, that's why I don't say, "You asked for it."

CONCLUSION:

The person who leaves a gun out in the open in their car, and hands someone else the keys to the car, is not taking personal responsbility for their property, their car and their gun, the second of which happens to be a tool whose sole purpose is to do violence. If they made a mistake by leaving out the gun, I have tons of compassion for their experiencing horrible unforseen consequences of that action, but it's a tool of extreme violence, and so requires extreme personal responsibility and caution.

It's not unusual in the US. Most of the people who carry do so thinking it will protect themselves, loved ones, property, etc. They don't buy the gun thinking "Yay, Violence!" Many states allow for open carry. In more rural places, it's not unusual to see a gun rack (designed for rifles) attached, with weaponry, to the back window of pick up trucks.

I can see how this seems odd to people who live in countries that don't allow firearms.

 

[ladolcemorte]

It's not unusual in the US. Most of the people who carry do so thinking it will protect themselves, loved ones, property, etc. They don't buy the gun thinking "Yay, Violence!" Many states allow for open carry. In more rural places, it's not unusual to see a gun rack (designed for rifles) attached, with weaponry, to the back window of pick up trucks.

I can see how this seems odd to people who live in countries that don't allow firearms.

But does an open carry permit allow someone to abandon the gun in a car?? I'm Canadian so I don't know the wording of the second amendment, but I agree that leaving a loaded gun in a car is the height of irresponsibility...If someone does that, I can't see how they should be allowed to continue to own a gun...I don't take issue with gun ownership (I have lived in a place where people wear their camouflage hunting outfits to the grocery store...), but I find it truly terrifying that the OP encountered the abandoned gun scenario often enough that he suggested it as a plausible suicide plan!!!

Sorry, I know I am getting off topic here, but I really can't get over it...

 

[esse_est_percipi]

But does an open carry permit allow someone to abandon the gun in a car??

Yes, I think so, as long as the car is theirs. I don't think that gun ownership implies that the gun has to be kept on the owner at all times, and if the car is the gun owner's property too, then it's no different to them leaving it in their house.

I'm Canadian so I don't know the wording of the second amendment

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

so the second amendment is quite vague when it comes to the specifics of gun ownership

 

[ladolcemorte]

Yes, I think so, as long as the car is theirs. I don't think that gun ownership implies that the gun has to be kept on the owner at all times, and if the car is the gun owner's property too, then it's no different to them leaving it in their house.



"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

so the second amendment is quite vague when it comes to the specifics of gun ownership

So wait...there are no laws regarding storage or transportation of guns? You can just keep a loaded gun in plain view in your car??? And then relinquish control of that car (and the gun) to a third party???? Seriously??? I know it's not the point of the thread, but...seriously?

 

[esse_est_percipi]

You can just keep a loaded gun in plain view in your car

I think a lot of states prohibit keeping a loaded gun in a car, but an unloaded one is ok.

And then relinquish control of that car (and the gun) to a third party

If the gun is unloaded and the third party can legally drive the vehicle, then yes, I think, though each state may have slightly different laws.

Seriously???

Guns aren't that much of a big deal in america, from what I understand. It's part of the fabric of the country.

So wait...there are no laws regarding storage or transportation of guns? You can just keep a loaded gun in plain view in your car??? And then relinquish control of that car (and the gun) to a third party???? Seriously??? I know it's not the point of the thread, but...seriously?

p.s. nice avatar

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's not unusual in the US. Most of the people who carry do so thinking it will protect themselves, loved ones, property, etc. They don't buy the gun thinking "Yay, Violence!" Many states allow for open carry. In more rural places, it's not unusual to see a gun rack (designed for rifles) attached, with weaponry, to the back window of pick up trucks.

I can see how this seems odd to people who live in countries that don't allow firearms.

I'm from the US. My dad was a cop. I was myself a gun owner. My ex-husband was a hunter.

I've known since before I could talk how dangerous guns are, and I was raised to know gun safety and responsibility. There is no more dangerous legal personal possession.

 

[WhyWasIBorn]

This thread is the first one that's seriously challenged my ethics! I'm all for people taking responsbility for their own suicide and not involving others. I'm a strong proponent of having my boundaries recognized and striving to recognize others' boundaries. I feel a lot of guilt for even small infractions of my ethics.

Relationships are an important consideration in suicide. Someone always has to find the body, and it's less traumatic if that person isn't personally known to them or anyone they know. I personally think it's awful to use the gun of someone one knows, and it's going to have a much greater impact on that person than it would on a total stranger.

In the valet scenario I think, okay, what if they had a rope in the car? That feels kind of shitty to me because a rope is not a weapon. It has tons of uses, very few of them violent. One would not reasonably expect that if they left a rope in the car, someone would see it as an opportunity to do harm to others or themselves.

A gun has one purpose: violence. Its uses are to defend or to assault, to injure or to kill. It could also be used for a paperweight, but it's not expected.

The OP has said that several people a week left guns out in the open in their cars. I acknowledge that for some this could be accidental. They may return to the car and think, "Holy fuck! That valet could have used my gun to rob a store and I would be implicated! Whew! Lesson learned!"

With regard to ethics, if someone is suicidal, taking a job for the opportunity to get access to a gun that's left out is targeting another. It's not taking personal responsibility for their own suicide, it's involving an unwilling other, same as the train method. In my personal ethics, that's not okay.

However, I'm not so idealistic and living in a dream world that I don't recognize people are going to do things that cause harm to others; that's the point of having a personal ethic and boundaries, so that we won't cause harm. But still, every single human being experiences suffering at the hands of other humans. Sometimes it's excusable to some degree, sometimes not.

If I heard about someone I loved having left out their gun in their car, and the valet used it for suicide, I'd see their personal responsbility in that, same as if they left their house unlocked and had things stolen. I'd be hurt for them, and at first feel righteous indignation on their behalf, but I also recognize that everyone -- even people I love, even me -- is responsible for self-protection. No one is ever at fault for being mugged, but if they walk down a dark alley alone in a bad neighborhood, they're not taking responsbility for their self-protection, either. I'm not going to point a finger and say, "You asked for it," but I am going to feel the discomfort of knowing they played a role in their own harm. Heck, I was sexually assaulted decades ago by someone who threw up huge red flags; he's at fault for assaulting me, but I did not take the responsibility to act to protect myself, and that's an uncomfortable fact. In all of these situations, I feel great compassion for the victim who suffered the consequences of making an error in either awareness or judgment; in my case, it was a combination of both. Humans make such errors, that's why I don't say, "You asked for it."

CONCLUSION:

The person who leaves a gun out in the open in their car, and hands someone else the keys to the car, is not taking personal responsbility for their property, their car and their gun, the second of which happens to be a tool whose sole purpose is to do violence. If they made a mistake by leaving out the gun, I have tons of compassion for their experiencing horrible unforseen consequences of that action, but it's a tool of extreme violence, and so requires extreme personal responsibility and caution.

It's not a rope though. it's a LOADED gun, as I said I noticed they were also in the more... how do you say... sketchier vehicles.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's not a rope though. it's a LOADED gun, as I said I noticed they were also in the more... how do you say... sketchier vehicles.

Yeah, I covered the difference between the items.

I get the impression you're defending yourself or the idea. What you quoted was me going through the scenario as a thought experiment with regard to my ethics. I didn't criticize you, pass judgment, or make a recommendation.

 

[WhyWasIBorn]

Yeah, I covered the difference between the items.

I get the impression you're defending yourself or the idea. What you quoted was me going through the scenario as a thought experiment with regard to my ethics. I didn't criticize you, pass judgment, or make a recommendation.

Oh my bad! I re-read your whole conclusion and it seems to be quite neutral which I agree. Maybe there needs to be some kind of tipping point to choose who's the right guy's gun you're gonna use, when you valet his car he doesn't say thank you or he says something nasty to you. Lol. Most valets are also younger guys, sometimes 18 years old, so if someone with a loaded gun willingly allows opportunity for someone that young to be exposed to an open loaded weapon than I don't think it'll be as harsh.